Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[JPV]

After a day of bad diarrhea my gut settled down and now I am taking about 6 or 7 with each meal. (If I take more than 7, I do feel a little loose.)

There seems to be some debate about whether probiotics should or shouldn't be taken with a meal. Some people believe, that if taken with meals, stomach acid may kill off some of the bacteria. They recommend taking them a few hours before or after a meal and with a lot of water to dilute stomach acid.

 

[ariel]

Thanks @JPV and @Gondwanaland, this is a chest infection plus cough out of nowhere, some kind of fluid on the lungs that the CB is reactivating. That candida... lurks everywhere!

I did try Mutaflor sometime after my big crash in 2008. I don't remember anything specific from it, but I was bed-bound at the time and barely able to read because it took too much energy.
Maybe it's time to re-visit though.

 

[Tammy]

Yes, that's the paradox of it. He is saying it's helpful, but he's also saying it reactivates it. I had seen that in order to get to a virus you have to get it out of hiding, so I was wondering if arginine did that or not for EBV, it does it for herpes simplex (I think that's the one). So then I found this, and him saying that resistant starch reactivates, along with a few things that we know aren't good for us. But then I wonder if for at least some of us the malaise that we get when we take resistant starch is because we are reactivating the virus but don't have enough of something immune system wise to deal with it in the reactivated form. The last thing you would then want to do is take l-lysine, (which I almost bought last week). I'll keep looking at his page and see if he has any other advice.

You mentioned the last thing you would want to do is take l-lysine. why? My brain isn't getting the correlation.

 

[alicec]

Does the butyrate cause oxalate dumping?

I don't know of any evidence for this but my own experience suggests it could be a possibility. Quite a few months ago before I began messing around with prebiotics I tried some coffee enemas with added butyrate and PC (this is part of the Patricia Kane protocol). I felt really good after the first one so did several more at 2 or 3 day intervals. This provoked the worst oxalate dump I ever had (through both bowel and kidneys). The worst of it settled down within a few days but I ended up spending several weeks in bed I just felt so terrible.

It might not be direct - maybe it has something to do with changing pH in the bowel.

Should I draw a serious plan to reduce my dietary intake of oxalates so I can tolerate CB?

It would be a good idea in general as oxalates seem to be a big issue with you. Please note though that sudden reduction in dietary intake can itself provoke dumping, so make changes gradually. Whether this would make any difference to your tolerance of CB is unknown and probably a separate issue.

Is that what I am aiming by taking CB? Getting rid of oxalates?

Hopefully taking CB will add beneficial bacteria to the gut which will, among other things, improve butyrate production. Effects on oxalates may be an unanticipated bonus.

Will lowering oxalates reverse my Hashi's? My hair loss? My tinnitus? My confusion and forgetfulness?

Well it might help since all of these things have been associated with oxalate accumulation.

As for the rest there is no easy answer. Dealing with oxalates and taking CB may have no real link. Both are good things to do and your own experience will have to guide what order you do them in.

 

[JPV]

That candida... lurks everywhere!

I'm not certain that Candida is the problem, I know it's a bit of a contentious subject and often times overused as an excuse, but it is something to think about.

 

[alicec]

I haven't really seen anyone on this thread mentioning supplementing with E. Coli Nissile 1917

I have tried it. It was one that I was exquisitely sensitive to which in my book means that I really, really need it. It went back into the fridge in the try again later category (when hopefully I would be a little less sensitive) but so far I have been derailed by so many others things that I have never gone back to it.

 

[JPV]

Does the butyrate cause oxalate dumping?

I don't know of any evidence for this but my own experience suggests it could be a possibility.

I've had a few instances, while on CB, of having very cloudy urine, which is often explained as being an Oxolate dump. It has actually happened to me numerous times over the years, on various different regimens, so it's hard to pin down exactly what causes it and I've yet to see a discernible pattern. I was also taking some Lugol's Iodine at the time, so maybe that wass what caused it and not the CB, in which case it could have been Halides too.

Sooo confusing sometimes...

 

[Sasha]

Must say, I'm feeling like crap. I'm hesitating to attribute it to the CB - I can never tell if I've got a bug - but I'm lightheaded, stuck in the flat, too ill to see people, finding I have to stay in bed for a couple of hours in the morning before I can get up... I think this is basically worsened OI, which can happen sometimes with a bug.

Going to ride it out for another week to see if it improves (which it should, if it's a cold virus or something). Haven't taken CB in ten days or so.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Haven't taken CB in ten days or so.

So you are feeling bad due to lack of CB?

 

[Sasha]

So you are feeling bad due to lack of CB?

I stopped taking it because I was feeling worse (I think - I need to go back and check my records).

 

[Gondwanaland]

Dealing with oxalates and taking CB may have no real link.

I think that like @Asklipia said, CB has something to do with vit K - either increased K1 retention from food, or increased conversion to K2 in the gut, but probably both.

What I don't understand is if increased calcium absorption by the bones will release the bounded oxalates. Does the bone take Ca in thus unbounding Ox?

 

[Basilico]

But you had a worsening even though you were taking it?

I started taking it in mid-May. The directions suggest taking a huge (attack) dose, followed by a lower dose afterward. Instead, I started with one per day, then two, and then 4 per day for about 1.5 weeks. With the first one, I was regular. Unfortunately, starting June 1, my husband and I moved out of our apartment (big stress!), then flew to Italy (more stress!). During this time, I was either not taking it, or I was taking 1 per day.

I was thinking that since I was regular, that would continue on it's own (nope). Upon arriving in Italy, I continued taking 1 per day, which was not enough to get me back to regularity. I didn't want to go back to 4 per day because with my husband unexpectedly needing to go on abx, I wanted to make sure there was plenty available for him to repopulate with, and I was antsy to try the Miyarisan.

Also, the Mutaflor is relatively expensive when 2 people are taking it at full dose, so even though I know I should just order more, I was kind of hoping that the Miyarisan might get things moving, which would help in the money department, since we are hemorrhaging money like crazy with all the tests and supplements and doctor appts. I'm not sure if the improved BM were a one time thing, and if I were to go back on it at a full dose if I'd have the same effect or not. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any improvements in BMs from Miyarisan or RS. I will stick with it anyway.

As is characteristic with my IBS, I never know when I'm going to get issues, though in the past months, things have been somewhat quiet. However, travel is always a trigger for my constipation to kick in, and I don't know if that's something any probiotic can overcome. If I were to restart the Mutaflor, I have no idea if it would work again, or if it would do nothing, or if it would work again, but not until I'm home in the U.S.

 

[Basilico]

I have tried it. It was one that I was exquisitely sensitive to which in my book means that I really, really need it. It went back into the fridge in the try again later category (when hopefully I would be a little less sensitive) but so far I have been derailed by so many others things that I have never gone back to it.

It's such a shame that you can't divide up the Mutaflor to take smaller doses due to it's enteric coating. Or maybe it's possible? I've not tried it, but maybe it is doable after all. Did you have this strong reaction to 1 full pill?

 

[Basilico]

One last thing about Mutaflor. Supposedly the E. Coli Nissile 1917 bacteria not only produce K2 which shuttle calcium to the correct location, but actually remove calcium deposits from soft tissues and put it where it belongs.

This is something I'm really interested in due to my extremely high levels of vitamin D 1.25, which could be causing my calcium to go to the wrong places. (I don't have the pain that people are describing with the oxalates, so I'm guessing they aren't an issue for me?) Perhaps some of the pain that folks are experiencing may in part be due to calcium deposits in the soft tissues. Just a thought.

 

[Gondwanaland]

One last thing about Mutaflor. Supposedly the E. Coli Nissile 1917 bacteria not only produce K2 which shuttle calcium to the correct location, but actually remove calcium deposits from soft tissues and put it where it belongs.

That is supposed to be the CB. (Mutaflor as well???)

 

[Gondwanaland]

premature babies in neonatal intensive care units are dying from gut infections caused by a pathogenic strain of C. butyricum, known as a probiotic that provides protection from C. diff.

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com.br/2015/06/making-monsters-renegade-c-butyricum.html

 

[JPV]

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com.br/2015/06/making-monsters-renegade-c-butyricum.html

Antibiotic and Drug Use in Hospitals and Farms Select for Antibiotic Resistance
C. butyricum and E. coli have been converted into toxin-producing, antibiotic resistant pathogens by common procedures of meat production and hospital treatments. These bacteria do not normally produce toxins nor are they resistant to antibiotics. They have been systematically selected for those pathogenic properties.

Antibiotics Used to Make Fat Cattle Select for Toxin Production
The development of toxin producing E. coli in cattle suggests how pathogenic C. butyricum was produced in the hospital environment. E. coli was a healthy component of the digestive system of cattle, until the gut flora community was reengineered by antibiotics, so that short chain fatty acids that were normally converted into more gut bacteria and more steer manure, were instead absorbed by the gut to produce a fatter steak. Unfortunately, this newly designed gut flora community left no place for E. coli. Some of the E. coli spontaneously mutated to antibiotic resistance and/or picked up multi-drug resistant plasmids from other bacteria, but that still didn’t provide a niche in the new community. Picking up a toxin-producing gene solved that problem, because the toxin releases needed nutrients from host cells. Thus, antibiotic use in cattle directly selected for the evolution of toxin-producing, antibiotic resistant E. coli.

Sounds like a specific mutant strain that came about because of the reckless use of antibiotics and industrialized food production methods. Again, the medical and food industry continues to poison us and make us sick. It's the only thing they really seem to be good at anymore, besides making loads of money for their shareholders.

 

[Violeta]

You mentioned the last thing you would want to do is take l-lysine. why? My brain isn't getting the correlation.

Lysine is recommended and works very well for keeping herpes virus from reactivating. But while it is in hiding it is supposedly still replicating (I don't know this for sure). And then I read that if you want to get it dealt with you have to bring it out of hiding, which I suppose would mean reactivating it, which arginine is supposed to do.

I don't know which is best, to tell you the truth. I'm hoping there's a third option.

 

[Basilico]

That is supposed to be the CB. (Mutaflor as well???)

Yes - Mutaflor as well. It's the K2 produced by E. Coli Nissile 1917 that transports the Calcium, not the probiotic itself, which I mistakenly wrote, but the bacteria in Mutaflor does produce K2. I actually didn't realize that CB made K2 also.

 

[Basilico]

Miyarisan chemistry question: a big claim to fame for CB is its ability to produce butyric acid. Does anyone know which specific reactions require butyric acid, and of those reactions, which are the other elements necessary?

I was thinking that even though butyric acid is really important, if we are deficient in other chemicals that maybe the butyrate doesn't get used properly. Kind of like the methylation cycle not working properly if some of the components are deficient. Hopefully this is not the case, and butyrate can be useful regardless of other available chemicals.