Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[tyson oberle]

Does anyone know what Dr Kenny DeMeirleir thinks of CB?

 

[Christopher]

I agree that SRB are highly toxic, especially because they rob sulfate and hydrogen, then produce excess H2S. They also tend to induce IBS-D in the organism, which can bring a quick death.

Methanogens tend to cause IBS-C, which can bring a slower death.

Both of these microbial groups steal nutrients. For instance, SRBs metabolize choline to TMA, ( potentially toxic), while methanogens convert TMA to TMAO, another potential toxin. ( A year ago, I was intolerant of choline and its compounds. Bad. Now that I've lowered the methanogens, I can benefit from choline use.)

I believe I must have also had excess SRB at one time, but I'm not sure how I lowered them. I no longer have trouble with sulfur foods, although I realize SRBs can growth without them. ( I did take several rounds of antibiotics.)

Nitrate and Nitrate Reducing bacteria look like an excellent way to inhibit SRB, methanogens, as well as other pathogens. Thank you for this information!

I began to take some high nitrate veg., such as beets, arugula, and celery seeds. Arugula is high in sulfur, may not be good for now. Beets are a great source of nitrates, but also high in oxalates and methyl donors. I guess we have to find what suits our own. ( I'm having some nice, dirty arugula from the garden.)

I did read that bacillus subtilis may inhibit SRB by producing antibiotics. ( It's in natto, and the probiotic 'Prescript Assist'.)

Nitrate Reducing Bacteria are interesting, because they utilize lactate. ( I'm already experiencing a lessening of what seems to be excess lactate effects. More time is needed.)

Since overgrowth of these microbes can inhibit production of butyrate, I believe that inhibiting them is a good way to improve the gut, and possibly make way for the introduction of butyrate producers, such as Clostridium Butyricum.

Hi - how are you introducing NRB? Many thanks.

 

[Crux]

Hi - how are you introducing NRB? Many thanks.

Hi,
I figured that the NRB would probably be present on the high nitrate leafy green, arugula.
I have some growing in the garden, so I picked it and ate it after a light rinse,leaving some dirt.
I did have more energy after that, and now I eat arugula daily, but I'm not sure that I'm producing less lactate. (there is less PEM, and nerve pain.)
It seems so, but, I'm trying other things too.
Reading more about the pathogenicity of methanogens and SRB ; they do interfere with formation of butyrate.

 

[Gondwanaland]

It contains only 4 Bifidobacterium strains. B. infantis, B. lactis, B. longum and B. bifidum. I've read that a healthy gut should be comprised of 90% Bifidobacterium so it seemed like a logical idea to me. From what I've gleaned on the forum, most PWME/CFS seem to tolerate Bifidobacterium pretty well while certain Lactobacillus strains can cause problems.

Are you tolerating the Bifidobacteria fine, JPV?

I am doing an experiment with LAB and BIF. Last night at bed time I took a BIF mix (breve, bifidum, longum). It was difficult to fall asleep, and there was a noisy war in my guts. Then I woke up during the night yadda yadda yadda.

Lately I had been taking a LAB mix which has been making me sleep wonderfully and seem to be woking sinergystically with my oxalate-lowering vitamins (rhamnosus, acidophilus, plantarum, lactis). I tolerate it if I take and then skip two nights, then take it again, which makes it 3x weekly.

Next trial is rhamnosus, bifidum, infantis.

Well, thanks to CB I am tolerating LAB now, and hope that thanks to LAB and BIF I will be able to eventually tolerate CB...

 

[JPV]

Are you tolerating the Bifidobacteria fine, JPV?

Yeah, I'm doing very well with it. I went up to 7 tablets a day with no problem. It doesn't seem to disrupt my sleep the way CB does. Custom Probiotics sells a 5 strain Bifido powder that has a much higher CFU. I might get that next instead of the 4X Pro-B as it'll be cheaper in the long run.

I'm off the CB for now but plan on putting it back in rotation in the next week or two.

In the meantime... I'm trying to figure out how to get Mutaflor into the US.

 

[JPV]

Next trial is rhamnosus, bifidum, infantis.

BTW, there's a probiotic for children called Ultimate Flora FloraBaby that contains B. breve, L. rhamnosus, B. bifidum, B. infantis and B. longum. It contains 4 billion CFU's per dose.

 

[Oci]

Last night I took a mix of Lactobacilli including acidophilus, and for the 1st time since I started my healing journey in 2013 I felt not only well on it, but actually BETTER. Woke up this morning FREE of joint pain. Finally!

I decided to take acidophilus after delving into the oxalate universe. Both acidophilus and bifidum are said to lower oxalates. It worked

Now to plan my next CB dose. I will make it a 1/4 tab in the next round, 1x weekly

Hi Gondwanaland, Great news about Lactobacilli making you feel better. I started VSL#3 3 days ago and the past 2 nights have slept a very long time ie 8.5 - 9.5 hours!!! Very unusual for me. I do feel somewhat drugged in the morning however. Hope this passes.
I am feeling more irritable bladder and vulvodynia symptoms however. I was hoping these would improve/disappear as in the past.
I will try upping the Bs as per your list.
Thanks for all the information! Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

I do feel somewhat drugged in the morning however.

Yes, me too

I will try upping the Bs as per your list.

They make my calves very itchy, and cause a big itchy rash on one thigh, which are supposed to be oxalate dumping.

 

[JPV]

Here's a good list, from Ken Lassesen's site, of probiotics purported to be beneficial for ME/CFS...

Probiotics lacking (Lactobacillus) Acidophilus

 

[Oci]

The alanine in the diagram refers to the enzyme alanine glyoxalate aminotransferase (AGT). This is the lynchpin of the whole system - in normal circumstances it leads oxalate down a harmless path but when it starts to fail (because of, for example, chronic oxidative stress) it ultimately leads to endogenous oxalate production which sets in train a whole series of metabolic derangements.

AGT is B6 dependant so the strategy to overcome problems with the enzyme relies on high doses of B6 to try to boost activity. If oxalates are a problem, then introducing B6 can stimulate oxalate dumping from stores and this can be very uncomfortable. It is one reason at least why B6 can cause difficulties. The solution is to introduce very slowly in very small amounts and build up slowly so dumping is manageable.

Just found this. It probably explains why I've had a big increase in symptoms of oxalates - I started B6. I'm wondering though how I can better manage the "chronic oxidative stress"? This was seen on an ION test I had years ago.

Thanks for the info! Oci

 

[Violeta]

Catherine Tamaro has a protocol for dealing with oxalates that might help.

http://www.gutresearch.com/VitaminK.pdf

 

[Gondwanaland]

Catherine Tamaro has a protocol for dealing with oxalates that might help.

http://www.gutresearch.com/VitaminK.pdf

the Vitamin K triggers carboxylation of bone proteins, which can then chelate the calcium from the crystals and put the calcium where it belongs. Meanwhile the oxalic acid will be disposed of, via secretion either through the kidney
tubules or across the intestinal membrane. However, if the kidney tubules are not filtering well due to the presence of CaOx crystals, or if the intestines do not contain oxalate-degrading bacteria, then the oxalic acid will remain in the body and re-crystallize. Disposal of any other waste product or toxin will be compromised also.

So I am considering to take my next quarter of CB tablet together with oxalate degrading LAB, and take LAB in the following days, and watching carefully to not raise my dietary oxalate intake during this time OR take vit K at a lower dose this time with this strategy, because at least when I took K2-MK4 my mood improved considerably, which did not happen with CB.

 

[Oci]

So I am considering to take my next quarter of CB tablet together with oxalate degrading LAB, and take LAB in the following days, and watching carefully to not raise my dietary oxalate intake during this time OR take vit K at a lower dose this time with this strategy, because at least when I took K2-MK4 my mood improved considerably, which did not happen with CB.

I was interested in Tamaro's theory too but remember that Susan Oates refuted it - can't find just now on my iPhone. Don't know who to believe!

What kind of K3 is recommended? May try.

Very foggy today. Feel like stopping everything to see what happens! Just ate a Mars bar!!! Is that Candida calling out?

Am I dealing with candida or oxalates or both?!!!

Good luck! Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

I was interested in Tamaro's theory too but remember that Susan Oates refuted it - can't find just now on my iPhone. Don't know who to believe!

No one of the health gurus out there holds the truth... We got to figure it out on our own what's best for us

 

[Oci]

No one of the health gurus out there holds the truth... We got to figure it out on our own what's best for us

And the answers may be different for each of us!

 

[piccirilli]

In the meantime... I'm trying to figure out how to get Mutaflor into the US.

Any luck finding a source available in the US? I would like to try this too.

 

[JPV]

Any luck finding a source available in the US? I would like to try this too.

Not yet. I'll let you know if and when I do.

 

[Snowdrop]

HI all, I'm looking for some help and guidance.
After A few days of taking 1 than 2 Miyarisan tablets, I took 4 this morning.
I now have what I've heard others here refer to (and find it quite descriptive) the 'coat hanger' pain.

I have a head ache the wraps around my head and focuses around the eyes along with pain centred at the base of the skull and across the shoulders.

Is this a typical reaction for some? Does anyone have an idea as to why CB would cause this and what I might do about it other than taking a pain reliever?

Thank you all for all the info you have shared for others to benefit.

 

[JPV]

I'm starting to wonder if the sleep disruption that I was experiencing on CB was caused by increased Acetylcholine or increased IL-10, which is also reported to disrupt sleep.

The CB strain contained in Miyarisan (Miyairi 588) is purported to increase IL-10...

A Single Strain of Clostridium butyricum Induces Intestinal IL-10-Producing Macrophages to Suppress Acute Experimental Colitis in Mice

Imbalance in gut bacterial composition provokes host proinflammatory responses causing diseases such as colitis. Colonization with a mixture of Clostridium species from clusters IV and XIVa was shown to suppress colitis through the induction of IL-10-producing regulatory T (Treg) cells. We demonstrate that a distinct Clostridium strain from cluster I, Clostridium butyricum (CB), prevents acute experimental colitis in mice through induction of IL-10, an anti-inflammatory cytokine. However, while CB treatment had no effect on IL-10 production by T cells, IL-10-producing F4/80+CD11b+CD11cint macrophages accumulated in the inflamed mucosa after CB treatment. CB directly triggered IL-10 production by intestinal macrophages in inflamed mucosa via the TLR2/MyD88 pathway. The colitis-preventing effect of CB was negated in macrophage-specific IL-10-deficient mice, suggesting that induction of IL-10 by intestinal macrophages is crucial for the probiotic action of CB. Collectively, CB promotes IL-10 production by intestinal macrophages in inflamed mucosa, thereby preventing experimental colitis in mice.

Clostridium butyricum MIYAIRI 588 used in this study was obtained from Miyarisan Pharmaceutical (Supplemental Experimental Procedures).

I know that Kenny De Meirleir believes that increased IL-10 activity may disrupt sleep. This paper seems to support his theory...

Interleukin-10 inhibits spontaneous sleep in rabbits.

The two highest doses of IL-10 significantly inhibited spontaneous nonrapid eye movement sleep if IL-10 was given during the light cycle. The highest dose of IL-10 (250 ng) also significantly decreased rapid eye movement sleep. IL-10 administered at dark onset had no effect on sleep. The sleep inhibitory properties of IL-10 provide additional evidence for the hypothesis that a brain cytokine network is involved in regulation of physiologic sleep.

I've gone off of CB and have been taking a Bifidobacteria complex (4X Pro-B) for the last few weeks. It seemed to work at first but now I think I'm back to my baseline. I'm assuming that the beneficial effects from CB were lasting for about a week or so but have since dissipated.

I'm going to go back on the CB, perhaps in conjunction with a Bifidobacteria complex, but I'm still concerned about the sleep disruption that I'm experiencing with it.

I've read that DHEA can help regulate IL-10 so I will start experimenting with that. Anybody know of anything else that helps control IL-10?

@adreno, I don't recall you mentioning that you experienced any sleep disruptions with CB. Are you by any chance taking anything that might help with regulating IL-10 production? Or perhaps IL-10 isn't an issue with your condition.

 

[Avengers26]

Hi @JPV , I will be interested in this, too. I have high IL-10. I started Miyarisan recently & lately, my sleep has been erratic & I wake up feeling unrefreshed. I didn't realized it could be possibly correlated. I am only taking 1/2 tab 3x/week. That's what i can tolerate at this time. It will be good to know what has worked to lower IL-10 for others.