That's a classical symptom of pyroluria, in case it's still relevant.
B2 I love you!
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That's a classical symptom of pyroluria, in case it's still relevant.
Have just read through this very interesting thread up to page 25. (It seemed to peter out after about p. 20, after Dog Person/Christine left.)
I discovered that B2 is good, & have indeed found it very useful augmentation to the Freddd Protocol (which means BTW that I take methyl B12).
And that some people need manganese as well.
I vaguely gathered that other Bs can be counterproductive, altho there is some mention of B1 being needed. I'm quite vague about that tho.
But I couldn't find anything else concrete. Was any kind of consensus reached?
Thanks to all...
I discovered that B2 is good, & have indeed found it very useful augmentation to the Freddd Protocol (which means BTW that I take methyl B12).
And that some people need manganese as well.
I vaguely gathered that other Bs can be counterproductive, altho there is some mention of B1 being needed. I'm quite vague about that tho.
But I couldn't find anything else concrete. Was any kind of consensus reached?
Thanks to all...
Violeta
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Gondwanaland
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I just read somewhere else that B6 improves insulin sensitivity and that nightmares are a symptom of hypoglycemia (too much B6).
No tanning might mean low copper.
Gondwanaland
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My personal conclusions:
I have learned that to activate all the Bs you need B2 and a methyl donor (choline for instance). A "side effect" of B2 is increased RBC synthesis, so you need plenty of all the other Bs + iron + copper. Activation of B2 itself requires a healthy thyroid.
My husband gets depressed from taking B2 (No love of B2 thread) because his MAO enzymes are really fast (MAO A -) and B2 is a MAO-A cofactor.
Many people get help with histamine intolerance from B2, but now I forget the explanation.
Manganese raises estrogen and can cause headaches which are relieved by B2.
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Thanks @Gondwanaland. I'm glad someone has got something concrete out of this mega-thread.
My experience is that on beginning B2, my methyl donors worked much better. (I wasn't aware which was activating which.) So I'm a fan.
But from Dog Person's posts I gathered that multi-B was bad - and that other Bs fitted in somewhere, but I couldn't tell where. Even now I'm not sure if they help or hinder B2 (according to people in this thread, anyway).
If you're on a methylation protocol (I'm on Freddd), do you know what you do apart from taking maybe 300% RDA of B2? Is that it? Smallish amounts of manganese seem to be recommended, but beyond that I'm clueless...
Thanks again, & I'm glad it's worked for you.
My experience is that on beginning B2, my methyl donors worked much better. (I wasn't aware which was activating which.) So I'm a fan.
But from Dog Person's posts I gathered that multi-B was bad - and that other Bs fitted in somewhere, but I couldn't tell where. Even now I'm not sure if they help or hinder B2 (according to people in this thread, anyway).
If you're on a methylation protocol (I'm on Freddd), do you know what you do apart from taking maybe 300% RDA of B2? Is that it? Smallish amounts of manganese seem to be recommended, but beyond that I'm clueless...
Thanks again, & I'm glad it's worked for you.
@Johnmac
Dog Person was all for getting our nutrients from food apart from the ones which would help us get rid of excess iron, according to her theory. So it was B2 in small regular amounts according to how much she thought you would need, and manganese. Later it was just Mn.
She told me to take 12 mg B2 before each meal and i did really well on it at first. She did not believe in working on methylation. She claimed that all b vits will use up b2 so she advised more of that but not so much the others if at all. She did not like multis. She would advise b12 for some.
Freddd believes in taking all the b's but in small amounts as he says it drives up the need for folate.
You will have to experiment yourself but if you are doing Freddd's protocol I would keep the other b's down as he says. You will have to check up on his latest advice but I think it is 25 mg b2 or less.
Dog Person was all for getting our nutrients from food apart from the ones which would help us get rid of excess iron, according to her theory. So it was B2 in small regular amounts according to how much she thought you would need, and manganese. Later it was just Mn.
She told me to take 12 mg B2 before each meal and i did really well on it at first. She did not believe in working on methylation. She claimed that all b vits will use up b2 so she advised more of that but not so much the others if at all. She did not like multis. She would advise b12 for some.
Freddd believes in taking all the b's but in small amounts as he says it drives up the need for folate.
You will have to experiment yourself but if you are doing Freddd's protocol I would keep the other b's down as he says. You will have to check up on his latest advice but I think it is 25 mg b2 or less.
Gondwanaland
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I believe that high dose methyl folate will cause the excess folate to convert back to inactive form, so yes, B2 will help to utilize the methyl donors and re-activate the inactive folate.
My husband and I have to keep B2 supplementation low because it makes him depressed as I explained above, and my thyroid isn't healthy enough to activate more than 2.5mg B2 daily (BTW I have the same problem with vit D, which I think might be related with resident bacteria blocking the receptors). Right now I have to look into raising my iron before anything else, which got a tad low after my last B complex supplementation. I don't dare to take isolated Bs or high doses anymore.
Gondwanaland
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Little Bluestem
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Christine told me to take B1 with B2 from the start.
I was to get 400 mg folate from food.
She said to add B12 as soon as B12 deficiency symptoms appeared and take enough to keep urine dark yellow.
Later I was to add B6, no more than 300% daily requirement.
After that she added B5 and Biotin to the protocol, not specifying when to add them or the amount. She said that she thought that biotin is the key that unlocks the door to allow correction of all the other vitamin and mineral deficiencies, so I assume that it should be taken from the start.
Thanks - I shall add B5, & am already taking the others...see what happens.
Kathevans
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I love this thread and am up to page 29, myself. There's such a fine dramatic arc with @Asklipia 's eye problems and gradual healing, as well as Christine Dog Person's fine work, disappearance and possible illness. It's riveting, not to mention informative.
I've known B2 is important, known that it was the ONE B vitamin that my only NutrEval test of about a year ago showed me VERY LOW in, but hadn't fully understood that it was very likely the infamous Country Life Coenzymated B Complex I must have taken for over a decade (YIKES!) that combined a mix of those basic Bs in identical 50mg amounts, with the exception of 800 mcg of Folate to 400 Me B-12 (also not a good idea, as we know via Fred) that no doubt over-taxed my B2 stores. This and almost no dairy for 15 or 20 years. (SIGH!)
How easy it is to shoot yourself in the foot by just following well-intentioned advice/practitioners.
I tried small amounts of the Source Naturals FMN last summer as I began to get into Freddd's protocol, got as high as 1/2 per day in 2 doses and then, once I re-introduced the low-dose B-Minus B complex, I let it drop. I was having a hard time reading anything that was going on in my body at that time and I figured I was getting 20mg of B2 in the B-Minus.
Over the next 5 months I increased B-12 and Folate to 6,000mcg and 2,000mcg respectively. Amazingly, almost all my joint pain disappeared, but my sleep was only marginally better. I had one or two nights a week where I got about 7 1/2 hours of disjointed sleep, but most nights were not that good. There were many nights when I felt plagued by 'wild mind' and would resort to Niacin to slow things down. Those nights were still a disaster and the next day would be a bust. Just more time lost. Slipped away.
It was Greg, the B-12 Oils guy, who took a look at my OAT Test results, saw the high Glutaric Acid (in a range of .04-.36, mine is VERY HIGH @ .55) and said I needed B2. In fact, "High glutaric acid on the Great Plains OAT or on the Genova Diagnostic Metabolic Analysis Profile indicates low B2." (richvank, March 18, 2012, I believe on this thread). So, I started with the FMN once again, this time more slowly--1/4 tablet a day for the first week, increasing by 1/4 each week. I cut back on the B-Minus for the time being, so as not to tax my low levels of B2-at 1/2 capsule in 2 divided doses (12.5mg B1;10mg B2; 90mg B3 Niacin; 10 mg B6; 250mcg Biotin; 75mg Pantothenic Acid--I know these are low, but for the moment I just want to keep them there so i can be clearer about the effects of the B2).
Slowly, I have been pulling back on the MeB12 and Folate (now 3,000mcg and 1,000mcg/day) and will/may go lower still.
I did not have an easy time beginning the FMN. I had a few early nights of crazy black sleeplessness--possibly the release of iron-stores in my liver? But very quickly my sleep began to improve. And the neurological symptoms of tight muscles in my face, or aching of the Dupytrens contracture in my left hand began to subside (Issues I always thought had to do with folate deficiency--and who knows, may, but the B2 may be helping me metabolize more folate). Pain in my calf disappeared when I upped my FMN from 1/4/day to 1/2. So little for such a big effect! I'm still up and down every night, more frequently as I increase the FMN--often every hour and a half. But I spend fewer hours wide awake, not 3-5 hours, only an hour or two. And as noted by Asklipia, I tend to wake earlier.
I am more tired all the time, though less exhausted--if that makes sense. I take more naps and sleep a bit more during that time. Usually 30-45 minutes.
This tiredness brings me to a question I have for those of you who have benefited by this protocol. I am not taking manganese. Mine was normal on my NutrEval test and I'm reluctant to just add things at this point (in fact, I'm beginning to feel more like @brenda who I think believes we ought to get most of what we need from our diet). My thyroid levels are smack in the mid-range for all the tests, but I have been eating 2 Brazil Nuts a day with no huge disruptions where I couldn't tolerate selenium.
But how many of you are taking extra iron? Or heme-iron as the more utilizeable form is called. "If you have a high ferritin it is reflective that you have very high stores of iron in the liver. Same can be true of a very low ferritin - which I had and was actually more serious than a high ferritin. The hair charts show that the liver is malfunctioning at manufacturing adquate amounts of the carrier protein (transferrin) for iron and the carrier proteins for copper (ceruloplasmin, hepcidin) and binding those minerals to them." (Dog Person, March 18, 2012)
My ferritin, tested a year ago was 81.72 in a range of 16.-204. I thought that was fine until Greg at B-12 Oils said it was very low, and when I called a woman at Proferrin, as small company in Colorado, she said that her levels post hysterectomy were 220 after having been very low. Apparently the reference range used at the Mayo Clinic is: For men, 24 to 336 nanograms per milliliter (standard units) or 24 to 336 micrograms per liter (international units) For women, 11 to 307 nanograms per milliliter (standard units) or 11 to 307 micrograms per liter (international units).
So, how do we know if we ought to supplement or not? Or whether our livers will begin to release the stored iron it holds as well as nudge our production of hemoglobin:
"It [riboflavin] contributes to the normal metabolism of iron. Iron metabolism is impaired in riboflavin deficiency. The utilisation of iron reserves from the intracellular protein ferritin requires riboflavin. Riboflavin is required for haemoglobin synthesis." (I'm not sure where this is from, sorry...)
All this said, my higher levels of pain have returned and I have more muscle weakness. I'm just trying not to jump to any conclusions, to go slowly, to be patient, to wait and see how things go as I increase my B2 levels.
And to have some yogurt every day!
One last note: within five days of starting the B2/FMN, I got my first cold/flu in 5-7 years (I can't recall the last one) and continue, two weeks in, to have a runny nose and occasional cough. The mucus is flowing--a good thing.
I've known B2 is important, known that it was the ONE B vitamin that my only NutrEval test of about a year ago showed me VERY LOW in, but hadn't fully understood that it was very likely the infamous Country Life Coenzymated B Complex I must have taken for over a decade (YIKES!) that combined a mix of those basic Bs in identical 50mg amounts, with the exception of 800 mcg of Folate to 400 Me B-12 (also not a good idea, as we know via Fred) that no doubt over-taxed my B2 stores. This and almost no dairy for 15 or 20 years. (SIGH!)
How easy it is to shoot yourself in the foot by just following well-intentioned advice/practitioners.
I tried small amounts of the Source Naturals FMN last summer as I began to get into Freddd's protocol, got as high as 1/2 per day in 2 doses and then, once I re-introduced the low-dose B-Minus B complex, I let it drop. I was having a hard time reading anything that was going on in my body at that time and I figured I was getting 20mg of B2 in the B-Minus.
Over the next 5 months I increased B-12 and Folate to 6,000mcg and 2,000mcg respectively. Amazingly, almost all my joint pain disappeared, but my sleep was only marginally better. I had one or two nights a week where I got about 7 1/2 hours of disjointed sleep, but most nights were not that good. There were many nights when I felt plagued by 'wild mind' and would resort to Niacin to slow things down. Those nights were still a disaster and the next day would be a bust. Just more time lost. Slipped away.
It was Greg, the B-12 Oils guy, who took a look at my OAT Test results, saw the high Glutaric Acid (in a range of .04-.36, mine is VERY HIGH @ .55) and said I needed B2. In fact, "High glutaric acid on the Great Plains OAT or on the Genova Diagnostic Metabolic Analysis Profile indicates low B2." (richvank, March 18, 2012, I believe on this thread). So, I started with the FMN once again, this time more slowly--1/4 tablet a day for the first week, increasing by 1/4 each week. I cut back on the B-Minus for the time being, so as not to tax my low levels of B2-at 1/2 capsule in 2 divided doses (12.5mg B1;10mg B2; 90mg B3 Niacin; 10 mg B6; 250mcg Biotin; 75mg Pantothenic Acid--I know these are low, but for the moment I just want to keep them there so i can be clearer about the effects of the B2).
Slowly, I have been pulling back on the MeB12 and Folate (now 3,000mcg and 1,000mcg/day) and will/may go lower still.
I did not have an easy time beginning the FMN. I had a few early nights of crazy black sleeplessness--possibly the release of iron-stores in my liver? But very quickly my sleep began to improve. And the neurological symptoms of tight muscles in my face, or aching of the Dupytrens contracture in my left hand began to subside (Issues I always thought had to do with folate deficiency--and who knows, may, but the B2 may be helping me metabolize more folate). Pain in my calf disappeared when I upped my FMN from 1/4/day to 1/2. So little for such a big effect! I'm still up and down every night, more frequently as I increase the FMN--often every hour and a half. But I spend fewer hours wide awake, not 3-5 hours, only an hour or two. And as noted by Asklipia, I tend to wake earlier.
I am more tired all the time, though less exhausted--if that makes sense. I take more naps and sleep a bit more during that time. Usually 30-45 minutes.
This tiredness brings me to a question I have for those of you who have benefited by this protocol. I am not taking manganese. Mine was normal on my NutrEval test and I'm reluctant to just add things at this point (in fact, I'm beginning to feel more like @brenda who I think believes we ought to get most of what we need from our diet). My thyroid levels are smack in the mid-range for all the tests, but I have been eating 2 Brazil Nuts a day with no huge disruptions where I couldn't tolerate selenium.
But how many of you are taking extra iron? Or heme-iron as the more utilizeable form is called. "If you have a high ferritin it is reflective that you have very high stores of iron in the liver. Same can be true of a very low ferritin - which I had and was actually more serious than a high ferritin. The hair charts show that the liver is malfunctioning at manufacturing adquate amounts of the carrier protein (transferrin) for iron and the carrier proteins for copper (ceruloplasmin, hepcidin) and binding those minerals to them." (Dog Person, March 18, 2012)
My ferritin, tested a year ago was 81.72 in a range of 16.-204. I thought that was fine until Greg at B-12 Oils said it was very low, and when I called a woman at Proferrin, as small company in Colorado, she said that her levels post hysterectomy were 220 after having been very low. Apparently the reference range used at the Mayo Clinic is: For men, 24 to 336 nanograms per milliliter (standard units) or 24 to 336 micrograms per liter (international units) For women, 11 to 307 nanograms per milliliter (standard units) or 11 to 307 micrograms per liter (international units).
So, how do we know if we ought to supplement or not? Or whether our livers will begin to release the stored iron it holds as well as nudge our production of hemoglobin:
"It [riboflavin] contributes to the normal metabolism of iron. Iron metabolism is impaired in riboflavin deficiency. The utilisation of iron reserves from the intracellular protein ferritin requires riboflavin. Riboflavin is required for haemoglobin synthesis." (I'm not sure where this is from, sorry...)
All this said, my higher levels of pain have returned and I have more muscle weakness. I'm just trying not to jump to any conclusions, to go slowly, to be patient, to wait and see how things go as I increase my B2 levels.
And to have some yogurt every day!
One last note: within five days of starting the B2/FMN, I got my first cold/flu in 5-7 years (I can't recall the last one) and continue, two weeks in, to have a runny nose and occasional cough. The mucus is flowing--a good thing.
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Little Bluestem
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I would keep an eye on the manganese. I think the B2 increases the use of manganese, so it may go down. Then you would supplement.
I think the best thing is to wait and see what your iron level does. Mine came up as I did the B2 protocol. A couple of times when I ran out of the supplements, it went back down.
Thanks for all that @Kathevans.
I'm not even clear on why multi Bs deplete B2. Can you explain?
I've also found Greg at http://www.b12oils.com/index.htm very helpful.
I'm not even clear on why multi Bs deplete B2. Can you explain?
I've also found Greg at http://www.b12oils.com/index.htm very helpful.
Kathevans
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I found the following site from The Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University to be very comprehensive and enlightening as to the many functions/uses of B2-from its use in the Folate cycle, to its assist in activating B6 and glutathione. It's a very busy little B!
Just have a look. I don't know that the other Bs have to divide their efforts in so many directions...http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/riboflavin#function
aquariusgirl
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I am scared to take manganese after reading this paper
:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/
:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/
Kathevans
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From the above article: "We further reason that, under conditions of adequate Mn in the diet, glyphosate, through its disruption of bile acid homeostasis, ironically promotes toxic accumulation of Mn in the brainstem, leading to conditions such as PD and prion diseases."
So, basically manganese is good for us unless we've managed to get too much Glyphosate into our blood stream via foods we eat that have been treated with Roundup? Do we avoid something that is good because we may have been exposed to something that will make it turn bad inside us? Do we buy only organic foods? Do we start our own gardens? Do we begin to lobby big AGRA?
Oy. I feel my inner Erin Brockovich rising!
So, basically manganese is good for us unless we've managed to get too much Glyphosate into our blood stream via foods we eat that have been treated with Roundup? Do we avoid something that is good because we may have been exposed to something that will make it turn bad inside us? Do we buy only organic foods? Do we start our own gardens? Do we begin to lobby big AGRA?
Oy. I feel my inner Erin Brockovich rising!
Violeta
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I don't know the answer with respect to taking Mn or not, but that paper certainly provides a good clue!
"glyphosate, through its disruption of bile acid homeostasis"
ahmo
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I've found in recent months that when I've had a stressful day, or over-worked, my body wants evening manganese, in addition to AM. I don't know what that's about.
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Violeta
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Would a stressful day increase ROS, and >>> a need for Mn SOD?
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/er/2011/387176/
Antioxidant enzymes maintain cellular redox homeostasis. Manganese superoxide dismutase (MnSOD), an enzyme located in mitochondria, is the key enzyme that protects the energy-generating mitochondria from oxidative damage.