B2 I love you!

[MacGyver]

My grasp of B2 is extremely shallow, related to a population of 1. I know only that it's made a huge difference in my histamine and oxidative stress levels. And that I've found that I need only half the amount when I apply it transdermally rather than sublingual.

Looks like the following posts re methylation have a lot of good info for you. Also, Freddd has been posting over the last few days, weeks. I suggest going to his profile page and looking under recent posts, to find some of his comments. Good luck.

Sure, but your info in this post has been quite enlightening to me
How are you applying it transdermally?

Yeah, Freddd's recent posts, especially the induced deficiency ones are interesting. It's something I've experienced myself re magnesium and B2.

In my understanding B2 will activate the other Bs by using methyl groups. You might want to take some choline with it.

Interesting, any further details on the mechanism? And why specifically choline, because of its 4 methyl groups? And what form? Also why do you think that relates to my increased pain? Sorry for bombarding everyone with questions but knowledge is health

I can not get my manganese to come up from the very bottom of the normal range, even when taking 16 mg/day. Do you think the problem could be SOD2? If so, do you know what I would do about it?

I wish I could answer that, it's something I need to look into as well. However @ppodhajski seems to be taking a high amount of manganese for his SOD2 SNPs so that seems to make sense. Well it seems from Dog Person's info that manganese can't be properly stored if there's a problem with iron/copper storage. Once that is solved the liver can store manganese again. Do you have any pointers to iron/copper being a problem for you? Did you have any response to taking high amounts of B2? Sorry if there are posts from you in this thread answering those questions, I'm still going through it myself.

 

[ahmo]

How are you applying it transdermally?

I started my transdermal experiments w/ B12, and when that was so successful, tried it w/ FMN. I've been using a small piece of fabric, crush the tablet onto it, add a blob of body lotion, and then I strap it onto my arm.

When I began transdermal B12, I rubbed it into my skin, without a patch. But I found the B2 to be really messy, staining skin and bedding. That's when I switched to making a patch.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interesting, any further details on the mechanism?

You take methylcobalamin and methylfolate for a reason - they are active forms
I suppose that by activating the other Bs, B2 adds a methy group to the inactive forms from food

And why specifically choline, because of its 4 methyl groups? And what form?

I think 4 methy groups are enough to give raw material to B2 to work with, plus I don't have access to SAMe or TMG/DMG here where I live (I would have access to B15 though), but I have been activating my vitamins with 2 soft boiled eggs daily.

Also why do you think that relates to my increased pain?

Because if you can't activate B12/Folate that's trouble
My husband used to take HyB12 injections but they soon stopped working. He started eating 2 fried eggs in butter daily (+enough meat and less carbs, + 1 mug of coffee) and the pain is gone 98% of the time When he has too much stress he gets pain again, but then it's magnesium what he needs.

 

[whodathunkit]

@whodathunkit - I did a search on the zinc protoporphyrins that Christine talked about and came up with Anemia of Chronic Disease. You might want to take a look at that.

Yep, I think that's a missing link for me, for sure. It clicked. Thanks, 'Stem!

Do you think the problem could be SOD2? If so, do you know what I would do about it?

Turmeric is supposed to help with SOD. I am homozygous for that mutation so am relatively sure it's got a lot to do with some stuff going on with me, possibly playing a big role in my hearing loss (for example).

@Bluebrid knows a lot of about SOD, maybe she can chime in.

 

[Little Bluestem]

Do you have any pointers to iron/copper being a problem for you? Did you have any response to taking high amounts of B2?

I was definitely having problems with iron and copper. I started the B2 at the same time as the manganese and raised the manganese faster. I have lowered the manganese and raised the B2, so I will be interested to see what my next hair test shows. I will be getting another one soon. (Really!)

 

[Gondwanaland]

playing a big role in my hearing loss

Hearing loss is one of the symptoms being addressed at the Unfolded protein thread
You can ask @mariovitali to direct you to a thread summary

 

[stridor]

@whodathunkit
FYI. I had a ferritin level of 9 but mt Hgb was above normal. This, accordinng to some site I saw, is a sign of a bacterial infection. Made sense as I had started treating mycoplasma.
It has taken most of the year but I have ferritin > 50 now and Hgb is back into the nor range - high normal.
Mycoplasma is gone and I cut back to every second day supplements.

 

[MacGyver]

You take methylcobalamin and methylfolate for a reason - they are active forms
I suppose that by activating the other Bs, B2 adds a methy group to the inactive forms from food

I think 4 methy groups are enough to give raw material to B2 to work with, plus I don't have access to SAMe or TMG/DMG here where I live (I would have access to B15 though), but I have been activating my vitamins with 2 soft boiled eggs daily.

Because if you can't activate B12/Folate that's trouble
My husband used to take HyB12 injections but they soon stopped working. He started eating 2 fried eggs in butter daily (+enough meat and less carbs, + 1 mug of coffee) and the pain is gone 98% of the time When he has too much stress he gets pain again, but then it's magnesium what he needs.

I meant the action of B2 being involved in methylation But I see, you mean by activating the other Bs.

I'll definately start testing choline after I get back to a stable situation agian. Thanks for that tip.

I've done the only sensible thing I should have done earlier and that is go back to what worked before everything went south and thus before I doubled the boron. The pain is manageable again; exit panic mode!
I should have fidled with my B2, B6 and zinc dosages to completely understand why B2 started working before I had upped the boron. Hindsight is wonderful isn't it

 

[Gondwanaland]

before I doubled the boron

Sorry I missed you mentioning Boron before- that is calcium metabolism, then you might need vitamin A for the iron transport recruited by B2 (assuming you have plenty of iron).
Reading this might help

 

[MacGyver]

Sorry I missed you mentioning Boron before- that is calcium metabolism, then you might need vitamin A for the iron transport recruited by B2 (assuming you have plenty of iron).
Reading this might help

I actually tried upping my vitamin A intake by taking Cod Liver Oil but only once so that's not enough to draw any conclusion from. It's something I'm eager to add once I get a full understanding of my boron-B2-B6-magnesium-zinc combo that was working.

High levels / Overdose / Toxicity / Negative Side Effects - Symptoms and/or Risk Factors:
Vitamin B6 / Pyridoxine deficiency, Vitamin B2 / Riboflavin-like deficiencies

After I came out of my panic mode due to the increased pain and being able to think straight again I actually believe that's what happened: by doubling the boron I induced a B6 deficiency. That's the only thing that I didn't try increasing while everything was going south... at least that's my current hypothesis. More testing required! Ohh how I love being my own Guinea pig

 

[whodathunkit]

This, accordinng to some site I saw, is a sign of a bacterial infection. Made sense as I had started treating mycoplasma.

Thanks, stridor! This is good info. Mind telling me what you were doing to treat the mycoplasma?

 

[whodathunkit]

Hearing loss is one of the symptoms being addressed at the Unfolded protein thread
You can ask @mariovitali to direct you to a thread summary

Thanks, Izzy. I've actually been watching that thread since it started. One of the problems I have with that protocol is I'm still unsure about the TUDCA. I have two bottles of the stuff I'm afraid to take. LOL

So, while I like mario's theory and it makes perfect sense to me, because of that I'm still kind of fishing around seeking other ways to manage oxidative stress in general, plus managing any extra engendered by my SOD mutations. Judging by the stubborn little chronic rash I've had across the bridge of my nose for the last 10 years but has been gone for some few months now, I may be on the right track. Low fat and fasting seems to have put the kibosh on it.

However, if necessary, I will no doubt circle back around to the unfolded protein thing in the future. But I don't think anything is ever going to reverse my deafness except maybe stem cell therapy. I'm a pretty optimistic person when it comes to the idea that we can reverse a lot of the damage to our bodies, but I'm also a realist. I suspect that ship has done sailed. Although I'm very much on board with the idea that I can prevent further loss. Which would be a very great thing, considering the fact that my hearing loss has proven to be progressive even if slowly so.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have two bottles of the stuff I'm afraid to take.

I have never imagined you would be afraid of taking anything
Why are you afraid, may I ask?

 

[Violeta]

Does this seem too good to be true, a constituent of spirulina is manganese-SOD.

Well, some types of spirulina.
"The fresh algae bodies of blue-green algae: Spirulina maxima, Spirulina platensis, Spirulina subsalsa, Dunaliella salina, Chara, Odeogonium, Spirogyra were treated by ultrasonication. On the bass of KCN and H_(2)O_(2) sensitivity, and on gradient PAGE analysis, the isozyme types of three Spirulina were all Fe-SOD. The Spirulina maxima and Spirulina platensis contained four isozyme bands of Fe-SOD, the Spirulina subsalsa contained six isozyme bands of Fe-SOD. The Dunaliella salina, Odeogonium, Spirogyra contained Fe-SOD and Mn-SOD, but the Chara contained Fe-SOD, Mn-SOD and Cu·Zn-SOD."

http://www.naturalnews.com/034194_spirulina_superfood.html

https://www.researchgate.net/public...mulate_manganese_and_its_distribution_in_cell

https://books.google.com/books?id=Vz7SpjEsE3IC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=spirulina MNsod&source=bl&ots=O-YLOBPxAh&sig=ZrkALAzfbpdc8e6oeOWip1nyuRc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t_XoVOLHFoOvggTXzoOQAg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=spirulina MNsod&f=false

 

[MacGyver]

Something else that crossed my mind yesterday which would be interesting to verify by people who get this response.

I think that people who get a noticeable response to FMN but not to riboflavin actually just uncovered that they have a zinc deficiency!
Since zinc is necessary for the conversion of riboflavin into FMN it would make sense that if you don't get a response to riboflavin but you do to FMN it's because there's not enough zinc to make the conversion.
And one other thing; if you're deficient in magnesium, neither forms will probably elicit a noticeable response since magnesium is required to convert FMN into FAD.

Just a hypothesis but looking at the pathways show this to be highly likely.

 

[Gondwanaland]

necessary for the conversion of riboflavin into FMN

Enough thyroid hormone (T3) is needed for the conversion as well

 

[stridor]

@whodathunkit
I took doxycycline 100 mg daily for 8 months and I did some H2O2 by IV to kick things off. The herxheimer reactions put me on my knees.
I tested negative for both mycoplasma and HHV-6 a month ago. It made a big difference and I wish I was tested before I was.

 

[ahmo]

I think that people who get a noticeable response to FMN but not to riboflavin actually just uncovered that they have a zinc deficiency!

I was taking the same amount of zinc when I had terrible reaction to B2, as when I started FMN. And continue at the same dose.

 

[whodathunkit]

I have never imagined you would be afraid of taking anything
Why are you afraid, may I ask?

LOL, Izzy.

My reservation is based mainly on the stricture not to take it for more than two months at a time without a break. There isn't really much we know concretely about TUDCA, and there seems to be a lot of internet hype around it with a lot of the information repeated, unsubstantiated, in a lot of different places. Based on experience, that makes me leery. Then there's the fact that taking TUDCA *after* drinking alcohol is supposed to help the liver but take TUDCA *before* drinking alcohol can harm it, with no real rationale as to why that I've been able to discern.

Basically, given that it acts on the liver and my liver is kind of messed up, I just decided that discretion was the better part of valor in this case, even though what mario says makes sense and I do like his theory. But TUDCA may not work the same for everyone. It may work better for whippersnappers, for example.

Plus, when searching TUDCA I came across a 1995 paper that found that it could actually help harden/calcify soft cholesterol gallstones, rendering them indissolvable. Apparently not so with UDCA, which is available by prescription to dissolve gallstones, but TUDCA. Granted, it was only one paper and I couldn't find anything else replicating these results, but it was enough to give me pause, combined with the other stuff about it, given my history.

 

[whodathunkit]

I took doxycycline 100 mg daily for 8 months and I did some H2O2 by IV to kick things off. The herxheimer reactions put me on my knees.

Ouch. Eight months.

I tested negative for both mycoplasma and HHV-6 a month ago. It made a big difference and I wish I was tested before I was.

I don't know much about tests for mycoplasma. Are there mainstream lab tests or are the tests considered "alternative"?