B2 I love you!

[Aerose91]

I agree that injectable gives a much higher dosage. Ive been taking more b2 orally again, about 250mg/day and still no change.

 

[stridor]

@Aerose91
I misread your post and thought you wrote B12. Not that it changes anything. I have only this year stopped the injections of B vitamins (on top of my 2 B12 injections daily). There is a post called "A B2 story" that talks about my ongoing issues with absorbing B2 orally. I am teetering on going back on injection again.

I have upped my dose to 100 mg x 2 daily and I am still getting a bit of breakthrough parathesia in the face. I will increase to 300 mg today. I don't know if you have the same thing going on as me - I have a lot of food sensitivities, take a pile of iron which I can't absorb, fight low Vit D and need to take mfolate by opening capsules and pouring them into the buccal pouch. I really don't absorb that one.

You probably know that my colon is gone. My gut does not work well. Anyway, you can tell when you get B2 on board because urine turns "vit B chartreuse". When this all started I took 18 capsules one day and 16 the next to make this happen. Probiotics helped a lot but now with the colon gone I do not tolerated these sorts of things very well.

Just typing this I think I have talked myself back onto the needles. They sting a bit as you may know. brad

 

[Aerose91]

@stridor

Damn, thats a lot of b2. I would love to go back to injectable but i have to convince my doctor to rx it for me and i def dont have the money to see her as of now. Ill just have to keep up with high doses of oral b2

 

[stridor]

@Aerose91
Man, I am having a hard time communicating It happens...
When I took injectable it was only the RDA and then I took anywhere from 100-300mg/day orally on top of that. I took 300 mg orally today and the tingling (left jawline) is better...still there but better. I plan on going back on my "B sting" as soon as I can get my hands on some.

 

[MacGyver]

@stridor If you're really taking 100mg B2 tablets you're wasting a lot of it; there's a limit of about 25-30mg that you can absorb at once. So you should have a lot more success if you divide your 100mg tablets into 4 parts and take one each hour (or less, let me know if that makes a difference )

I'd like to thank everyone on this thread for their contributions. So far I've had tremendous success with B2 as well (it's like a light switch for my mood) though I'm currently running into some other issues (increased pain (inflammation?!), insomnia and at the same time feeling very tired during the day, itchy scalp) which I think are due to running out of other cofactors, most likely molybdenum or methylfolate.

@Sherpa I seem to have a few of the same major genetic mutations as you (MTRR, MAO-A, SOD2) so I'm also (like @hixxy ) very interested in your SOD symptoms and any other experience you've gained (I'll be reading up on all your previous posts as well)

 

[stridor]

I will try that MacGyver. I had thought that this had to be wrong because the studies for migraine settled on 400 mg.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I split my 100 mg B2 capsules and spread the doses throughout the day.

 

[MacGyver]

I will try that MacGyver. I had thought that this had to be wrong because the studies for migraine settled on 400 mg.

There's a post here somewhere that explains that a bit but I don't have a direct reference.

I'm currently over my head in trying to figure out why I'm having increased pain with the B2 though that only happened after 4-5 weeks of taking it which really sounds like depleting cofactors.
Gah! Then you find one piece of the puzzle and then other issues pop up!

If anyone (@ahmo you seem to have a good grasp of B2) can link my symptoms to anything that would be great.
Symptoms after taking B2 (which totally clears out my depressive symptoms mind you):

• having trouble getting to sleep and/or waking up at 3-4-5 am then staying wide awake until sleeping again at 8 am (B2 conversion requires thyroid activity, related?) - this was instant when I started with the B2
• low energy/tired (B2 conversion requires thyroid activity, related?) - nearly instant when I started the B2
• Had low magnesium symptoms like eyelid twitching and cramping in feet - only in the first week after taking B2. (which is funny cause taking the B2 finally allowed me to take magnesium in the first place! There's a relation with Boron as that allowed me to take magnesium for a week as well)
• Had increased heart rate/thumping which responds to potassium (depleting B1?)
• Increased pain (either nerve or muscle related or both) lower back/belly feels like it heats up, sometimes stabbing pains on the front right (inflammation? B1, manganese, something else shortage?) - took 4-5 weeks to show up.

 

[Aerose91]

• having trouble getting to sleep and/or waking up at 3-4-5 am then staying wide awake until sleeping again at 8 am (B2 conversion requires thyroid activity, related?) - this was instant when I started with the B2

Hey, i have this exact same thing, just not from b2, mine was from raising methylfolate. I wake up around 3 am perfectly awake, like its noon almost then i cant fall back asleep for a long time, if at all. I dont start to feel tired or the effects of it till later in the day. This happens every night now

 

[MacGyver]

Hey, i have this exact same thing, just not from b2, mine was from raising methylfolate. I wake up around 3 am perfectly awake, like its noon almost then i cant fall back asleep for a long time, if at all. I dont start to feel tired or the effects of it till later in the day. This happens every night now

You know, that makes a ton of sense! I don't have any of the MTHFR mutations so I shouldn't have any trouble making my own methylfolate. And since B2 helps recycle methylfolate the need to supplement should only have gone down. I never had a positive response to it anyway. Don't know how MTRR ties in but that's an +/- anyway.
Hmmm. Thing is I upped my methylfolate intake cause I read from, I think it was Sherpa, that he needed to take methylfolate to reduce inflammatory effects after taking B2.

Hmm, I guess that means I'm methylating properly and have been all this time and that the root cause of my issues is to be found elsewhere, probably the MAO-CBS-SOD2 combo: they all point to the same thing: low B2, low SOD2 and low molybdenum which lead to an increase in iron/copper. Low B2 causing excess stored iron/copper, low SOD2 causing an increased need for manganese and hence leading to less being available for the correct storage of iron/copper, low molybdenum leading to decreased ceruloplasmin and excess free copper/issues with iron storage.

 

[Aerose91]

You know, that makes a ton of sense! I don't have any of the MTHFR mutations so I shouldn't have any trouble making my own methylfolate. And since B2 helps recycle methylfolate the need to supplement should only have gone down. I never had a positive response to it anyway. Don't know how MTRR ties in but that's an +/- anyway.
Hmmm. Thing is I upped my methylfolate intake cause I read from, I think it was Sherpa, that he needed to take methylfolate to reduce inflammatory effects after taking B2.

Hmm, I guess that means I'm methylating properly and have been all this time and that the root cause of my issues is to be found elsewhere, probably the MAO-CBS-SOD2 combo: they all point to the same thing: low B2, low SOD2 and low molybdenum which lead to an increase in iron/copper. Low B2 causing excess stored iron/copper, low SOD2 causing an increased need for manganese and hence leading to less being available for the correct storage of iron/copper, low molybdenum leading to decreased ceruloplasmin and excess free copper/issues with iron storage.

I have all of those same issues, too. Blood tests and hair mineral analysis shows low molybdenum, mangenese and slightly low magnesium and iodine. I show high "biounavailable" copper and low zinc but also have high ferritin. B2 is def good for me but no idea why methyl folate has caused the sleep disturbances

 

[whodathunkit]

having trouble getting to sleep and/or waking up at 3-4-5 am then staying wide awake until sleeping again at 8 am (B2 conversion requires thyroid activity, related?) - this was instant when I started with the B2

This sounds to me like a classic adrenal fatigue pattern. I had big time adrenal problems that have resolved with supplement, diet, and lifestyle supplementation. Doesn't mean there's nothing to your CBS/MAO/SOD2 conjecture, but it does sound like some HPA dysfunction in there, too.

BTW, I have all those mutations and a couple MTRR, too. No MTHFR, though. I still do fairly high-dose methylfolate and it does me a lot of good. But it has to be managed, and daily mB12 + the proper amount of adB12 seems to be key for it to work properly. It's changed my life dramatically for the better.

Posting in this thread because I started on B2 a few weeks ago, and it's been an interesting ride so far. Some minor ups and downs, but overall I think it's doing me good. After initial fluctuations, energy and mood seem more stable. Sleep quality is improved. Hair texture seems to be improving, too, but it's really too early to tell. I want to wait to get some labs done before I say more, but one reason I started B2 was to try to pull iron out of my liver, as well as to boost thyroid production. Signs point to maybe it's working for both. So far so good.

 

[MacGyver]

I have all of those same issues, too. Blood tests and hair mineral analysis shows low molybdenum, mangenese and slightly low magnesium and iodine. I show high "biounavailable" copper and low zinc but also have high ferritin. B2 is def good for me but no idea why methyl folate has caused the sleep disturbances

I haven't done a hair mineral test yet but I'm willing to bet it will probably look the same. I've had high ferritin show up as well And from what I've gathered regarding copper toxicity I match the whole pattern, including craving copper foods and the 'copper head' racing mind thing. Do you tolerate magnesium well? I wasn't (depressed and increased pain) and that's how I found out boron allowed me to take magnesium up to 500mg for a week then it went down again. And then taking B2 allowed me to take magnesium up to 500mg again. Before I was able to ramp it further I had to stop because of severe pain and now I have to start over again. It just can't be simple can it Btw: boron works together with B2 to make ceruloplasmin...

This sounds to me like a classic adrenal fatigue pattern. I had big time adrenal problems that have resolved with supplement, diet, and lifestyle supplementation. Doesn't mean there's nothing to your CBS/MAO/SOD2 conjecture, but it does sound like some HPA dysfunction in there, too.

BTW, I have all those mutations and a couple MTRR, too. No MTHFR, though. I still do fairly high-dose methylfolate and it does me a lot of good. But it has to be managed, and daily mB12 + the proper amount of adB12 seems to be key for it to work properly. It's changed my life dramatically for the better.

Posting in this thread because I started on B2 a few weeks ago, and it's been an interesting ride so far. Some minor ups and downs, but overall I think it's doing me good. After initial fluctuations, energy and mood seem more stable. Sleep quality is improved. Hair texture seems to be improving, too, but it's really too early to tell. I want to wait to get some labs done before I say more, but one reason I started B2 was to try to pull iron out of my liver, as well as to boost thyroid production. Signs point to maybe it's working for both. So far so good.

You're probably right, there's a tie in between ceruloplasmin and the adrenals as well; the adrenals being the ones that need to signal the liver to produce ceruloplasmin. Have you tried boron? I intially had the same response to it as with the B2: insomnia and fatigue. I'm pretty sure B2 is just a trigger just like magnesium was. But for what? Copper/iron metabolism seems likely

How does the methylfolate help you? What sympoms does it alleviate? What's your high dose?

How are you noticing the B2 is helping with iron in the liver and thyroid?

 

[whodathunkit]

How are you noticing the B2 is helping with iron in the liver and thyroid?

Energy. It's kind of subjective at this point.

I am chronically anemic due to heavy monthly blood loss, and don't have too many symptoms from that that I am aware of, but I have been so chronically anemic for so long I probably wouldn't know if it was causing me symptoms with my energy since I "get by" even when my ferritin is very low. The anemia also seems to be more "paradoxical", in that ferritin is low but other lab values for anemia are normal. Low normal, but still not bottomed out like ferritin. That fits with some of what Dog Person wrote early in this thread about we don't necessarily have to have anemia values to have anemia if it's being stored in the liver and/or not utilized properly, and that low ferritin isn't necessarily a sign of low iron. Just low iron transport. Etc.

But...I also recently (within the last few months) experimented with some niacin, which definitely had a deleterious effect on my energy. I've not been quite right since. Turns out that little bit of self-experimentation affected my thyroid negatively, according to my latest lab values. Past few years my TSH has always been <1 when tested, but this past test earlier this month showed it had gone up to about 1.19. First time it's been above 1 in a very long time. I wasn't surprised at all because I could feel that my thyroid wasn't working quite right. But since taking the B2 (and manganese) my energy has improved back to where it was before the niacin.

So, again...kind of subjective. We'll see where ferritin and TSH are in another couple months. But based on how I'm feeling now, I expect them to be improved if I continue like this.

How does the methylfolate help you? What sympoms does it alleviate? What's your high dose?

Freddd's methylation protocol has helped me with pretty much everything. Gave me my energy back. Detoxed me. Helped get rid of the worst of my food cravings. Gave me hope that I might actually be a normal person one day. Gut therapy is the other thing that works synergistically with methylation protocol...after a solid year of methylation, starting gut therapy (pre- and probiotics) stabilized and increased my energy further, plus helping even more with food cravings and overeating. It's all been a process.

High dose for methylfolate was 50mg/day for a few months. I've tapered off that and had to increase again, etc. It's a balance. I dose according to my symptoms. The right amount of mB12 every day being crucial to maintaining balance, I think esp. with MTRR mutations.

As far as B2...I'm using about 200mg of that per day. I take 50mg oral with each meal (when I also take other supplements that are supposed to use up B2), and the rest is sublingual FMN. The sublingual tastes like ass, but it seems to work.

Another interesting thing is that my urine color is getting lighter yellow even though I'm on these high doses of B2. I'm taking that to mean my body is using the B2 better. Any time previous when I would take B2 I'd get this deep yellow urine, even if it was just a smallish dose in a multi-B complex. Now that I'm high-dosing my pee is a lighter shade of yellow.

 

[Aerose91]

This sounds to me like a classic adrenal fatigue pattern. I had big time adrenal problems that have resolved with supplement, diet, and lifestyle supplementation. Doesn't mean there's nothing to your CBS/MAO/SOD2 conjecture, but it does sound like some HPA dysfunction in there, too.

BTW, I have all those mutations and a couple MTRR, too. No MTHFR, though. I still do fairly high-dose methylfolate and it does me a lot of good. But it has to be managed, and daily mB12 + the proper amount of adB12 seems to be key for it to work properly. It's changed my life dramatically for the better.

Posting in this thread because I started on B2 a few weeks ago, and it's been an interesting ride so far. Some minor ups and downs, but overall I think it's doing me good. After initial fluctuations, energy and mood seem more stable. Sleep quality is improved. Hair texture seems to be improving, too, but it's really too early to tell. I want to wait to get some labs done before I say more, but one reason I started B2 was to try to pull iron out of my liver, as well as to boost thyroid production. Signs point to maybe it's working for both. So far so good.

I had really bad AF prior to getting ME and my sleep was messed up for sure, but not like this. Its definitely a problem in the hypothalamus im just not sure what.

 

[Aerose91]

@MacGyver yes i tolerate magnesium fine. I take a mineral supplement with both mag and boron so i get both, never had an issue with it.

 

[MacGyver]

@whodathunkit Thanks a lot for the info. Appreciated!
Yeah, both cases, low and high ferritin, responding to B2 as Dog Person said.

I'm actually near the lower limit for TSH: 0.42 so I presume that's a good thing.

50mg of methylfolate; that's an insane amount! How did you decide/determine you needed it to be that high? What symptoms responded to it so you kept pushing it up that high?
I made a logical error earlier concluding that since I didn't have an MTHFR mutation that I wouldn't be needing more methylfolate; that's just not true: if more healing is started more will be needed.

MTRR indeed impacts methylcobalamin recycling thus a higher need for it.

200mg is about the same dose I was using but I only recently aquired the FMN form which should reduce the need for thyroid hormones to convert the riboflavin to FMN...
The FMN indeed tastes like ass...which is...funny... to read when I have one in my mouth at this moment

I believe I read somewhere, pretty sure it was here and possibly even this thread that if your urine becomes lighter while taking B2 that you need more B12. I think it was one of brenda's posts.

@Aerose91 Thanks for the info. Much appreciated!

My foggy brain has reminded me of something: I doubled the amount of boron (to 12mg/day) I was taking 2 weeks ago in the hope I would be able to take magnesium to its explosive limit That immediately caused more sleep problems and probably lead to my current issues.

Soooo... I guess my puzzle really is like this: boron allows me to take magnesium without becoming depressed or having increased pain. Boron depletes B2 cause it works with it to create ceruloplasmin in the liver or due to some other process(es). So after a week of boron I probably depleted whatever B2 I had and I couldn't take any more magnesium. Then after upping my intake of B2 I could up the magnesium to 500mg again for 4-5 weeks (combined with the boron). I never got to a really stable mood though and energy was very low. Then I doubled the boron and after a week I had severly increased pain. Now if I increase the B2 again I feel increased pain again...

So instead of looking at B2 I should be looking at boron and actually back at magnesium as being my main culprit for the pain!

 

[ahmo]

If anyone (@ahmo you seem to have a good grasp of B2) can link my symptoms to anything that would be great.

My grasp of B2 is extremely shallow, related to a population of 1. I know only that it's made a huge difference in my histamine and oxidative stress levels. And that I've found that I need only half the amount when I apply it transdermally rather than sublingual.

Looks like the following posts re methylation have a lot of good info for you. Also, Freddd has been posting over the last few days, weeks. I suggest going to his profile page and looking under recent posts, to find some of his comments. Good luck.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm having increased pain with the B2

And since B2 helps recycle methylfolate the need to supplement should only have gone down.

In my understanding B2 will activate the other Bs by using methyl groups. You might want to take some choline with it.

 

[Little Bluestem]

low SOD2 causing an increased need for manganese

I can not get my manganese to come up from the very bottom of the normal range, even when taking 16 mg/day. Do you think the problem could be SOD2? If so, do you know what I would do about it?

@whodathunkit - I did a search on the zinc protoporphyrins that Christine talked about and came up with Anemia of Chronic Disease. You might want to take a look at that.