7 Day NAD+ Infusions (Severe ME/CFS Recovery, Neurological / Mitochondrial / Genetic Repair) + POLL

[triffid113]

Oh, I remember Vitamin D affects merhylation. I take 50g D/week. There are prolly other supplements I take that affect methylation that I have forgotton about. For instance, I place prime priority on anti-oxidants: 1g E, 2g C, 1 g olive leaf extract (polyphenols), grape seed extract, etc

 

[Learner1]

Thanks. Per your post, I will take another homocysteine test to see what niacinamide is doing to methylation. I know 10 is not optimal. I just take so many pills that I frequently verge on nausea. (Morning coffee plus pills = disaster). I have so many broken genes that it takes this to get mine down ro 6.3 (and methylation is far from my only health issue!): Thorne Basic B 2/day. 1 g. TMG. 50mg P5P. Some sublingual B12 (used to be B Right). I haven't taken the sublingual B12 in a very long time...my cobalt was getting high! I also rarely take the TMG, though I know I need it because it works faster than B12+folate to keep homocysteine low after meals. I usually only do the Basic B 1/day. I always do the P5P though since it is also used to make stomach acid, which I don't make enough of. And it helps spare your kidnies from things like homocysteine.

I was curious if u have any idea why a niacin precurser would affect methylation.

Incidentally, it was noted here at one time that adequate methylation takes care of bug bites. If your bug bites itch more than 20 minutes or so, you may not be getting adequate methylation. If I start noticing alot of itching due to bug bites, I take that extra Basic B for sure.

I have eaten low carbs my whole life. What works for me though is supplemental zinc. Studies have shown all diabetics are low in zinc, and zinc is used to make insulin.

Thanks. Be cautious everyone.

Your B vitamin intake is pretty low, compared to what many of us are taking - I take 18,mg folate and 350mg P5P, with other Bz in proportion, for example. I agree that coffee and a bunch of B vitamins first thing in the morning us a recipe for nausea, and have found that moving B's to after lunch or dinner with adequate protein.

It would be wise to work with a good functional medicine doctor and go some comprehensive testing to optimize a protocol for you.

You might find the attached PowerPoint useful.

 

[triffid113]

Thanks. I know the B intake is low. all my life I took high dose but it was ineffective due to I could not break it down. Now the b that works for me (Thorne) comes only in low dose. I just don't do well with pills all day. Breakfast pills always happen. Before bed pills also (lifelong cal-mag before bed due to vitamin D receptor defect)). But I always forget pills with other meals. So the second b and the copper separate from the zinc rarely happen. except now I'm finding I can take the copper before bed, no problem, in fact, more restful sleep.

Oh, I forgot, I used to take extra folate too. For depression, but didn't really work and I was unwilling 2 do those real high doses some were trying (in fact, I wondee if it killed some of them, who never reported back). I do very well with rhodiola, holy basil, and DHEA, as well as my Thorne Basic B for depression.

I know you can't control what you can't measure, so I am 1000% behind tests. But I would never let anyone change my stack. I take what I do for specific health reasons based on my whole life's experience with what works for me. That said, I am always willing to try a few additional supplements.

I never heard of taking that much P5P. I should prolly try that to see if that does the trick with my low stomach acid issues. I've been drinking kombucha because I need the acidity.

I am sure you all would need higher bz if you have active pathogenss which consume / destroy them (particularly happens with b12). I take oil of oregano to kill pathogens. It's very strong, kills most things. It killed a covid-like infection I got, for instance. Looked up a study which said it did not kill covid in vitro, yet it killed whatever I got with similar symptoms. So... I always douse things with it. Also olive leaf extract kills many things and if still an issue I use colloidal silver. Not to discount the benefits of DHEA (I take extra when sick) and zinc...thyroid critical in any illness. I wish you all the best in killing those pathogens that compete with you for your nutrition. I could use a time-release basic b so I can keep homocysteine lower without taking b more than once per day.

 

[Learner1]

Thanks. I know the B intake is low. all my life I took high dose but it was ineffective due to I could not break it down. Now the b that works for me (Thorne) comes only in low dose. I just don't do well with pills all day. Breakfast pills always happen. Before bed pills also (lifelong cal-mag before bed due to vitamin D receptor defect)). But I always forget pills with other meals. So the second b and the copper separate from the zinc rarely happen. except now I'm finding I can take the copper before bed, no problem, in fact, more restful sleep.

Oh, I forgot, I used to take extra folate too. For depression, but didn't really work and I was unwilling 2 do those real high doses some were trying (in fact, I wondee if it killed some of them, who never reported back). I do very well with rhodiola, holy basil, and DHEA, as well as my Thorne Basic B for depression.

I know you can't control what you can't measure, so I am 1000% behind tests. But I would never let anyone change my stack. I take what I do for specific health reasons based on my whole life's experience with what works for me. That said, I am always willing to try a few additional supplements.

I never heard of taking that much P5P. I should prolly try that to see if that does the trick with my low stomach acid issues. I've been drinking kombucha because I need the acidity.

I am sure you all would need higher bz if you have active pathogenss which consume / destroy them (particularly happens with b12). I take oil of oregano to kill pathogens. It's very strong, kills most things. It killed a covid-like infection I got, for instance. Looked up a study which said it did not kill covid in vitro, yet it killed whatever I got with similar symptoms. So... I always douse things with it. Also olive leaf extract kills many things and if still an issue I use colloidal silver. Not to discount the benefits of DHEA (I take extra when sick) and zinc...thyroid critical in any illness. I wish you all the best in killing those pathogens that compete with you for your nutrition. I could use a time-release basic b so I can keep homocysteine lower without taking b more than once per day.

Thorne, Seeking Health, and Designs for Health each have an array of excellent B vitamin products. Injectables work well, too.

I don't have pathogens. Taking colloidal silver or olive oil indiscriminately can kill off creatures we need.

 

[Hopeful2021]

My question would be why you are using such enormous doses of NAD+? I have no idea how you can stand that big an infusion, which must take many hours and be pretty expensive.

Have you looked into peroxynitrites, damage to mito membranes and other mito nutrients?

And, for most people, that high a dose might promote cancer....

Glad it's working for you, though.

You harp on the cancer aspect.
There is ONE animal study at a dose humans couldn't tolerate.

It's pretty hard for me to want to keep sharing a success....
Not exercising and hanging out in bed all day, doctors say also puts one at risk of cancer.

Anyway, I'm in neither camp - yours on cancer and the doctors summation.

It doesn't sound like you have a question about dose at all. Just disapproval and spite. So I have misgivings about conversing with you further. Please keep your distance from me.

 

[Hopeful2021]

My question would be why you are using such enormous doses of NAD+? I have no idea how you can stand that big an infusion, which must take many hours and be pretty expensive.

Have you looked into peroxynitrites, damage to mito membranes and other mito nutrients?

And, for most people, that high a dose might promote cancer....

Glad it's working for you, though.

***** previously said something said out of being too defensive. ****
Wish i could take it back. I'm an IDIOT!! And my spirit crushed already so one small thing that lands wrong on me sends me to deep despair and being defensive.
@Learner1 -- one day or never is also fine, please consider forgiving me.

 

[Learner1]

As a stage 3 cancer survivor, diagnosed when I was in the best shape of my life, eating right, exercising, and supplementing, I think it's appropriate to be aware of the potential benefits and pitfalls of any treatment.

At 200mg, cells become saturated with NAD+. It is a difficult infusion. From my 3 years of working with NAD and other mitochondrial nutrients under the care of multiple doctors, it seems that putting a lot of gas in a broken system is not necessarily the best idea, and that working to replenish phospholipids to repair peroxynitrite damaged mito membranes, and supporting the various mito processes with CoQ or MitoQ, carnitine, riboflavin and other Bs, BCAAs, etc. might be more holistic and productive in optimizing mitochondrial function.

My disbelief was related to how unpleasant and lengthy a 200mg NAD infusion is, I can't imagine for myself undergoing that even once, much less many times. Interesting how we can be affected differently.

Thank you for your apology. My wish was not to upset you, but increase our learning on a mutually interesting topic.

 

[mitoMAN]

@Learner1 do you happen to know of private customer laboratories that measure intracellular NAD+ and NADH?

Assay kits are readily available for labs to do these tests.
But I haven't found one offering the tests yet

BTW: which methly donors are most heavily used for NAD+ conversion?
Do you happen to have a quick reference?

Also here is a current Study on Cancer Cells and NAD+ uptake:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57506-9

 

[Learner1]

PARP inhibitors are a cancer treatment.

"Continuous replenishment of NAD promotes the proliferation and survival of fast-dividing cancer cells because elevated NAD levels enhance glycolysis via glyceraldehyde 3-phosphate dehydrogenase (GAPDH) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) that require NAD as a co-enzyme (12, 13).

"Recently, several studies have indicated that NAD metabolism is involved in cancer development and progression and is considered a promising therapeutic target in cancer treatment. In this review, we summarize the roles of NAD metabolism in cancer pathogenesis."

"Overexpression of Nampt is frequently observed in several types of malignant tumors, including, colorectal, ovarian, breast, gastric, thyroid, prostate cancers, gliomas, and malignant lymphomas (29–48). Increased NAD levels accompanied by Nampt overexpression sustain rapid cellular proliferation and promote cancer cell survival against anti-cancer cell reagents. In particular, elevated NAD levels boost glycolysis through glyceraldehyde 3-phosphate dehydrogenase (GAPDH) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) that require NAD as a co-enzyme and enhance anaerobic glycolysis (12, 13).

A well-known oncogene, c-MYC was reported to regulate Nampt expression in cancer cells (49). c-MYC transcriptionally regulates the metabolic reprogramming of cancer cells by enhancing glucose uptake, glycolysis, and lactate production, the increase in Nampt expression by c-MYC may lead to the Warburg effects (50). Several microRNAs regulate Nampt levels and promote cancer cell proliferation. miR26b reportedly suppresses Nampt expression by binding to the 3'-UTR in the Nampt gene. In colorectal cancer cells, miR26b is down regulated, leading to the overexpression of Nampt."

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fonc.2018.00622/full#h2

 

[triffid113]

Wow. Thanks! I take DHEA which is anti-proliferative. So I'm not extremely worried, but will look into it. At the very.least though, guess I'll stop recommending NAD. (For myself, not gonna stop. It makes me feel good and the quality of my skin great, and delays diabetes, which may be genetic (low carbs my whole life). Alot of the supplements I take are anti-cancer, but few people take as many supplements as me).

 

[triffid113]

ok, here's a paper that says andrigens i n general are protective against many cancers. But there is a whole chapter in it about DHEA and hiw it prevents many cancers in a dose dependant way: https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/24/2/152/2424204


DHEA and other cancers
A series of studies performed in experimental animals have shown the anticarcinogenic activity of DHEA (258, 286, 287). In fact, DHEA has been found to inhibit progression of the cell cycle of pancreatic, breast, and colon cancer cells (274, 288, 289). Moreover, a series of epidemiological studies suggest an inhibitory effect of DHEA on various types of cancers. These epidemiological data pertain to breast cancer (281), prostate cancer (290), and ovarian cancer (291).

 

[triffid113]

Actually, isn't limiting NAD+ if you don't have cancer like limiting folate w/o cancer? Your skin/ your body needs to renew, needs to kill old cells and replace. So kimda like thriwing away all the knives so there won't be a weapon in the house in case of burgler?

 

[Learner1]

The key is balance. Both too little and too much methylation and folate have been linked to cancer - see attached.

No reason not to take NAD at all, just be careful.

DHEA can convert to either testosterone or various estrogens.

https://images.app.goo.gl/NJTQDfjYGgaufHu1A

Too much of any of these, if an imbalance can promote cancers.

https://ww5.komen.org/BreastCancer/Table7Bloodandrogenlevelsandbreastcancerrisk.html

https://www.healthline.com/health/high-estrogen#complications

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4505810/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-dhea/art-20364199

I will say, that I am taking DHEA, testosterone, estradiol and estriol, closely monitored by my doctors as I lost my ovaries and much if my hormone production during treatment of stage 3 uterine cancer driven by unrecognized estrogen dominance...

 

[triffid113]

Yes, I take hormone replacement also. I also take life extension's cruciferous vegetable extract, D, and iodine, to prevent cancer. The DIM (from I3C) in it is pretty genetally recognised ad anti-priferative, and i n fact, has at least 8 wats by which it may stop cancer. I looked into this more carefully because the jury is still out as to whether DHEA can hurt or prevent prostate cancer in men and I now have 2 say if yoy're male and going to take DHEA, be safe and take a good DIM supplement. I have been taking 50+ mg DHEA WITH the broccoli extract and bio hormone replacement for 12 years and no cancer yet (knock on wood)

 

[triffid113]

DIM is non-proliferati e
has 8 ways to stop cancer
thrte is a consensus on it.in studies
(sorry 4 the typos!)

 

[dahsar]

Covid depletes ATP so I’m going to try some ATP supplements

https://www.pureformulas.com/atp20-...MI8re8m_ig6wIVrx6tBh0oXArAEAYYASABEgLxbfD_BwE

 

[mitoMAN]

Covid depletes ATP so I’m going to try some ATP supplements

https://www.pureformulas.com/atp20-...MI8re8m_ig6wIVrx6tBh0oXArAEAYYASABEgLxbfD_BwE

So does CFS
But the mechanics are not that easy. I bet my shoes that supplementing exogenous ATP won't even help by 0,.1%

you will need to help your mitochondrial capacity to produce steady levels of ATP again. Which this thread is partly about complex I

 

[Learner1]

Covid depletes ATP so I’m going to try some ATP supplements

https://www.pureformulas.com/atp20-...MI8re8m_ig6wIVrx6tBh0oXArAEAYYASABEgLxbfD_BwE

You might want to look into this.

 

[Learner1]

Back to the topic of NAD+ and it's precursors. I just found this article explaining how there's a relatively newly discovered transporter that gets NNN into cells to directly convert into NAD+. This backs up my experience with sublingual NMN working better than NR or even NADH.

https://www.prohealthlongevity.com/...nmn-transporter-slc12a8-new-areas-of-research

 

[triffid113]

What is NMN?