Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Johnmac]

Just to reiterate the rationale for taking more B2 with your ado & Me B12 - & less or no folate, carnitine & potassium - for those who haven't seen it:

B2-deficient people (a fair few of us are, especially if we don't consume animal protein and/or dairy) can't recycle folate through the methylation pathway, so standard amounts of folate don't work - you need very big doses. That is the only way you can get the methyl groups from the folate cycle. You may sacrifice tons of methylfolate just to get one methyl group.

This can result in 50-100 times the amount of folate in the cell that the cell needs, which deranges folate cycling.

Similarly, if you're B2 deficient, you use up tons of B12, because you need the B2 for MTRR.

In the organic acids (OAT) tests, there is a high tendency for people with CFS to be B2-deficient. CFS isn't a B12 problem: it's a B2 and B12 problem. You also need C, selenium, & a bit of iodine to make T3 & T4.

If you get enough B12 (transdermal provides maybe 80% penetration; injections more), & add B2, you should only need small doses of folate - 1-5mg/day or less. If you are then methylating properly, you should make your own carnitine.

I don't comprehend all this, nor can I prove it's true (tho it's working for me so far). But it seemed important to at least provide the theory for examination.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have learned the hard way that B6 can deplete B2 and vice-versa.

This gets worse when I take "too much" niacin, or eat foods higher in histamine like today, so that may be a confounding factor.

This is not a confounding factor. It is exactly the same situation of B2/B6 depletion. Niacin is the vitamin that when in excess will increase Hcy. And high histamine (and oxalate) foods will increase the need for B2 and B6 (co-factors of MAO-A and DAO respectively). Take a look at the link in my sig Citric acid cycle chart

 

[Kathevans]

I have learned the hard way that B6 can deplete B2 and vice-versa.

I think I'm learning the hard way, too. Down the rabbit hole again.

I'm grateful for your voice of reason. But finding a balance at any level seems like a challenge...that is with foods or with supplements.

 

[Athene*]

Thanks Athene. The present round of skin infections began in a period when I was taking no iodine, so there is probably no relation. The last round (in Jan) began just after I'd ceased iodine - so this time I resumed iodine to see if it had any effect good or bad on the boils: but nothing.

My ceruloplasmin & serum copper have come back normal (tho I was supplementing on the day of the test), so unless anyone can tell me different, I don't seem to be copper deficient. My remaining slender theory for these uncharacteristic bursts of infection is raised blood sugar - 5.7, the bottom of the pre-diabetes range. Hardly any data supports this, but I reason that if diabetes can knock the immune system round badly, maybe pre-diabetes can knock it round a bit.

My bromide detox symptoms are an hour of what feels like flu - runny nose, mild fever & malaise.

As for the bright green pee being desirable - that's a new one on me. I'll have to ask Greg what he meant. Also about the dosage: 125mg/day is 3 times what he said was ok for me.

Thanks for the insights.

Yes, do ask him @Johnmac, if you think of it. He was quite firm about the green colour being important. I should have asked him why exactly, but there were other questions re OAT I needed him to focus on.

Sorry to hear about the blood sugar. High cortisol comes to mind, but then you came off hydrocortisone so likely not that, though if you've gone the other way with cortisol it could be (this has happened to me & others on the adrenal sites who previously had low cortisol). Of course mightn't be anything to do with you.
Mine blood sugar is usually 4.5 to 5 but it can go up a few points when I'm hyperthyroid or have high cortisol

 

[Athene*]

I can't say for sure when mine got to the greeenish tinge, but it is there now. Yours may have taken longer because you are taking so much folate and it was getting used up as fast as you put it in. But this is good news. I, on the other hand, as you know have had a very hard time tolerating the folate as it seems to cause a lot of muscle tightening. As to the ears, I certainly get ringing since starting Fred's protocol, so that may be some of it. But it also definitely has to do with the muscles/tendons running up the side of the head. I have read that the ado B12 is a help when it comes to a stiff neck (sometimes, though as we know there are multiple causes for every symptom in the book!), so I can't wait to get the new oils and begin to titrate them.

So no folate for me today. I'm just watching carefully to see where this leads me this time. Each time, as I've said, it seems to be different. This morning was different when it came to the B2--more extreme. It's the fourth day in a row that I've taken about 2/3 of the blurb of B-12 oil (by scraping up the other 1/3rd with a sort of credit-card and just rinsing it down the sink) and when I took the B2 as FMN, I got really shaky. Nervous. Adrenalized. When I first started taking the B2 (back in January), I got instantly tired and felt as if I could fall asleep--which I sometimes did. this morning that hyper feeling lasted a little over an hour and then, because I'd only gotten 4 hours of sleep, I went back upstairs and climbed back into bed where I read a bit and fell asleep for another hour or so. I

What was more amazing was that the rest of the day fell into that euphoric state that @Johnmac has mentioned. It wasn't that I wasn't tired physically, but I went on the longest walk I've taken for over a year. I noted that my thighs felt weak just a block or two from my house, but I headed into the woods and took the long way, anyway. I was fairly pooped by the time I got home, but it was a beautiful day once again. I sat on benches twice and once was in a huge empty ball field as it was the middle of the day--not even someone with a dog. And the sun was beaming down on me.

I felt so blessed.

Yesterday I felt suicidal and today I was over the moon. My husband said, "Make a note of that, will you?"

One of my worst traits is that I'm so much in the moment; one of my greatest traits is that I'm so much in the moment.

[As to iodine, Sherpa has had great success with that, I know. I had very good success with a small dose, titrating up to 3 drops, or what is about 200mg/day I believe. I was never able at the time to go higher as it wreaked havoc, like so much else, with my sleep. I continue with that dose daily, particularly because I use sea salt. I still have cold feet all the time and I was just online shopping for a down bed jacket, even with the summer coming! Now I've got to take a look at selenium, which I'm only getting in my Brazil nuts!]

Glad you had some good moments @Kathevans I hope they continue. I get it re the mood swings and feeling like you've had enough only to rally the next day. The elation thing is interesting. I had that the other day and it happened about 20 years ago when I was briefly hyperthyroid (before becoming hypothyroid). Turns out the b2 is really revving things up for me and from today's blood tests I have far too much cortisol (even though I've come it for a few days now) and my TSH is zero. Big drama today with lab ringing doctor and doctor ringing me and then ringing the endo. I'm not sure if I'm really hyperthyroid or just have a suppressed tsh from the t3 (tsh suppression panics the doctor). I'm waiting for the t3 result. But the point is that the b2 is certainly having marked effects on my metabolism (and mood). Even while feeling achy and weak (perhaps hyperthyroid, or maybe just high adrenalin and suppressed tsh) I felt quite happy in myself and optimistic about things. I'm not achy and weak today. I feel really good. The doctor is so annoying!
About the iodine - do you mean mg or mcg (just curious).
So I've finally ordered the 23andme. I envied your gene & snp knowledge! I do hope there won't be any nasty surprises. Not sure how much more I'm able for...
'Weak thighs' you said - now that's a classic hyperthyroid symptom for me (as well as unexpected moments of elation) and now that you say it, I've had both in the past week. I wonder if your b2 is revving up your thyroid too? Or could it be adrenalin I wonder? I wonder, I wonder. I'm sick of wondering! I'll know more about whether it's hyperthyroidism for me when I get the t3 result in a few days...
Other news: have managed to significantly cut potassium & 5MHTF. Anyhow, 'We'll see'
Have a good weekend!

 

[Athene*]

Yes, eyes water, but sometimes are dry as well. I've read that this is common:

http://www.everydayhealth.com/vision-center/the-healthy-eye/watery-eyes.aspx

This gets worse when I take "too much" niacin, or eat foods higher in histamine like today, so that may be a confounding factor. But definitely the eyes water more (maybe some sort of freaky protection attempt) when exposed to sudden bright light. Even indoor light.

I've been taking 200-300 mgs for over a year. 400 mgs is recommended and proven beneficial for migraine sufferers, so I have a feeling what's not needed is peed out, as noted several times in this thread. But green pea? Never heard of it, and not sure about Greg's explanation. I'd google-scholar that for back up…

Interesting. Thanks for the link - my husband's were watering like crazy today. Must try him on the b2...Yep, the green pee dilemma continues. Greg was definitely puzzled I hadn't had it, and said another person hadn't had it until five weeks, so it looks like something significant for some people at least. I must question him again about the reason. There was a lot going on at the time. Isn't there always? Might even pee purple next...nothing surprises me anymore...

 

[Kathevans]

I spent the afternoon at the doctor's myself...though didn't find out anything other than the recommendation to pull back on the B2. This was the allopathic doctor, of course. I have to wait a couple of weeks for the alternative... My face and ears are bright red and it feels as if I've taken niacin even though I haven't outside of the normal amount. I wonder if it's something else entirely going on...my mycoplasma or one of my viral things or bacterial issues....

@Athene* The weak thighs are just loss of muscle mass, I think, and lactic acid buildup. My legs always feel weak with exertion, even climbing the stairs in the house.

So much to figure out.

Oh, the iodine is 210 mcg. Very small amount.

 

[Gondwanaland]

My face and ears are bright red and it feels as if I've taken niacin even though I haven't outside of the normal amount.

Pay attention to the things that create an increased need for B6, i.e., oxalates and every B vitamin...

 

[dannybex]

I have learned the hard way that B6 can deplete B2 and vice-versa.

This is not a confounding factor. It is exactly the same situation of B2/B6 depletion. Niacin is the vitamin that when in excess will increase Hcy. And high histamine (and oxalate) foods will increase the need for B2 and B6 (co-factors of MAO-A and DAO respectively). Take a look at the link in my sig Citric acid cycle chart

Thanks for the chart @Gondwanaland -- good job.

I'm not sure I understand your point though regarding histamine and niacin. It's my understanding that the reason niacin increases Hcy is because it depletes methyl groups, which have at least some effect on histamine.

p.s. Even after a year or more of B2 I still can't tolerate any B6/p5p, but haven't tried it in a month or so, so maybe I should take the plunge, as my OAT test showed I was an endogenous producer of oxalates.

 

[Gondwanaland]

the reason niacin increases Hcy is because it depletes methyl groups, which have at least some effect on histamine.

By depleting methyl groups it will burden B6 because "someone" has to work to turn Hcy into Met! B6 is a vital anti-oxidant in this instance. However, the other function of B6 is to activate DAO, but converting Hcy into Met is probably more important, so you will lack DAO and histamine (and other amines) will build up.

I still can't tolerate any B6/p5p

What symptoms you get?

 

[Oci]

By depleting methyl groups it will burden B6 because "someone" has to work to turn Hcy into Met! B6 is a vital anti-oxidant in this instance. However, the other function of B6 is to activate DAO, but converting Hcy into Met is probably more important, so you will lack DAO and histamine (and other amines) will build up.

How about taking enough B6 to do both jobs? I am taking 50 mg P5P twice a day. Also taking 100 mg B2 once a day. I'm not sure what the ratio should be. I seem to be tolerating both.

I wonder what my Hcy is now after adding more B6? It was 9.7 when last tested. It was @6 I think some years ago when I was taking CoQ10 for migraines. How would I determine if I "need" CpQ10 for other reasons? Any tests?

 

[dannybex]

By depleting methyl groups it will burden B6 because "someone" has to work to turn Hcy into Met! B6 is a vital anti-oxidant in this instance. However, the other function of B6 is to activate DAO, but converting Hcy into Met is probably more important, so you will lack DAO and histamine (and other amines) will build up.

What symptoms you get?

In the past, 'stocking-glove' tingling in my toes and feet, but more recently, whole-leg jerks and kind of an RLS-ish-ness both in bed and out. My quinolinic acid level was elevated on the OAT, which is ironically lowered by B3, but increased with B6 -- so that may be why I haven't been able to tolerate it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

whole-leg jerks and kind of an RLS-ish-ness both in bed and out

If you get this from B6, it could be that your Ca-Mg balance is disrupted (assuming that you have always taken adequate amounts of Magnesium with your B6). Have you ever tried calcium/B5? I will have to look up what quinolinic acid is.

 

[dannybex]

Magnesium always makes any twitching, cramping worse, so I tend to go w/calcium every once in awhile. I just ordered some pantethine, as I have dislipidemia as well. Quinolinic acid is a neurotoxin with many nasty qualities.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Magnesium always makes any twitching, cramping worse, so I tend to go w/calcium every once in awhile. I just ordered some pantethine, as I have dislipidemia as well. Quinolinic acid is a neurotoxin with many nasty qualities.

I find pantethine so soothing (anti-histamine properties?) and sometimes take it for 3-4 days in a row at bedtime. The dosage that I found to work best for me is 1.5 mg (one point five milligrams) - down from 12 mg, 6 mg and 3 mg. It makes me sleep like a baby But lately it has been causing me low B2

 

[dannybex]

"Soothing" would be nice. That's a tiny dose though. Not sure how you can determine what's causing what? Are you taking it sublingually or with other supps…or…?

 

[Kathevans]

@Johnmac How much folate do you need now that you've raised your B2 levels along with the B-12 Oils? I'm still trialing the Oils, but felt I'd raised the B2 too high--60mg/day--without resolving the muscle tightness that is one of my most uncomfortable symptoms. Now with 35-40mg B2 I'm starting over once again. This time with more folate. Of course I've struggled with head buzzing weirdness with high methyls, but the other thing that has held me back from higher folates and B-12 is the fear of the potassium issue. I know Greg says we should be able to get the potassium we need from food--and I do eat lentils, try to have an orange a day (though I hate the sweet aspect of it and would prefer not to have it), drink a glass of coconut water with dinner (but feel the same way about the sweetness). So, how much potassium do you take along with your protocol. I know it's individual, of course, but when I cut down this time, I discovered that I didn't need as much as I'd been taking--which was about 300mg 4-5x/day, so 1200-1500mg or so. And it's certainly given me reflux as well.

But the potassium worries me particularly because I did once lose my electrolytes once during an episode of the flu where my alternative guy was saying it was nothing but detox and just drink more water. If my husband hadn't been home, I would have died on the bathroom floor. As it was, by the time he got me to the emergency room (he thought I was having a stroke), I had a grand mal seizure and was in a coma for three days while they slowly titratated saline into me... Frighteningly, I remember none of it till I began to wake up, which occurred over the course of several hours on the third day. My husband's stories of me lying in restraints while 'there was no there there' in my eyes are a little unnerving.

I don't want to push too hard as I know I have mitochondrial issues--viruses & heavy metals. I see you did Cutler's for 3 years. Is there a thread where you talked about your experience?

Thanks so much for your thoughts...K

Hi to @Athene*--I hope you are progressing. This back story reveals reason for my reluctance to just dive in, I think!

 

[garyfritz]

@alicec people here run the gamut, @garyfritz appears to be active and recovered on the B's

@boohealth, sorry -- somehow I didn't see that you tagged me, and I just discovered this thread.

Please don't take my experience as representative. Even though Greg says I have a classic CFS-type genome, I have never actually had CFS. I never had problems with low energy, exercise intolerance, etc. I have some maddening symptoms that drive a huge appetite for B12, and I might have slipped into CFS symptoms if I hadn't lucked out and discovered B12. I'm theorizing/hoping that the B12 is preventing nerve damage that might otherwise have turned into CFS. In any event, Greg doesn't understand my voracious need for B12, and my situation seems to be different to most people's.

That's good about the iodine. My husband's 'low normal' thyroid results & low temp were fixed within weeks of using iodine 12.5mg daily (for a year or so). He's now only taking 2mg and has 'text book' thyroid function according to doc, who would never have approved of iodine.

Interesting. I also have low temp (usually about 97.2°F / 36.2°C, vs. "normal" 98.6°F / 37.0°C), many hypothyroid symptoms, cold hands/feet, etc. On Greg's recommendation I've been nibbling 4-5 brazil nuts per day along with enough iodized salt to get 50-100% of the US RDA, but that's only 150mcg for adult men. Your husband was taking more than 80x that much. (But I was confused by your wording... his problems were "fixed within weeks" after taking iodine "for a year or so" ??)

 

[Gondwanaland]

"Soothing" would be nice. That's a tiny dose though. Not sure how you can determine what's causing what? Are you taking it sublingually or with other supps…or…?

I have tested each supp separetely taking them on their own for a few days. B5 never workerd during the day for me, always made me sleepy, but worked wonderfully at bedtime. Unlike Taurine that made me sleepy during the day and sleepless at bedtime.

Did you have a high protein diet when you supplemented with B6? B6 loves lysine.

I think we are chatting in a wrong thread

 

[Athene*]

@Johnmac How much folate do you need now that you've raised your B2 levels along with the B-12 Oils? I'm still trialing the Oils, but felt I'd raised the B2 too high--60mg/day--without resolving the muscle tightness that is one of my most uncomfortable symptoms. Now with 35-40mg B2 I'm starting over once again. This time with more folate. Of course I've struggled with head buzzing weirdness with high methyls, but the other thing that has held me back from higher folates and B-12 is the fear of the potassium issue. I know Greg says we should be able to get the potassium we need from food--and I do eat lentils, try to have an orange a day (though I hate the sweet aspect of it and would prefer not to have it), drink a glass of coconut water with dinner (but feel the same way about the sweetness). So, how much potassium do you take along with your protocol. I know it's individual, of course, but when I cut down this time, I discovered that I didn't need as much as I'd been taking--which was about 300mg 4-5x/day, so 1200-1500mg or so. And it's certainly given me reflux as well.

But the potassium worries me particularly because I did once lose my electrolytes once during an episode of the flu where my alternative guy was saying it was nothing but detox and just drink more water. If my husband hadn't been home, I would have died on the bathroom floor. As it was, by the time he got me to the emergency room (he thought I was having a stroke), I had a grand mal seizure and was in a coma for three days while they slowly titratated saline into me... Frighteningly, I remember none of it till I began to wake up, which occurred over the course of several hours on the third day. My husband's stories of me lying in restraints while 'there was no there there' in my eyes are a little unnerving.

I don't want to push too hard as I know I have mitochondrial issues--viruses & heavy metals. I see you did Cutler's for 3 years. Is there a thread where you talked about your experience?

Thanks so much for your thoughts...K

Hi to @Athene*--I hope you are progressing. This back story reveals reason for my reluctance to just dive in, I think!

Doing great, thanks, Kath @Kathevans. Managed to reduce 5MTHF again (now 18mg from 40mg) and potassium (now 1,600 from 3,500). One of the key issues for me has been the thyroid - getting enough t3 and t4 in as well as the b2, but the b2 has really helped get the thyroid level up. Of course I understand - don't just jump in. Those dropping to the floor events I had (unable to get up with banging heart and paralysed muscles) were electrolyte issues too. I thought I was going to die. I didn't even know about potassium at the time. But I am so relieved not to have to ingest so much now. That was a dreadful experience you had. Hope things progress well for you soon