Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[boohealth]

Hi--why does methylb12 cause dental caries? Or is it a b2 deficiency?

 

[Kathevans]

Because we're always sticking those little pink pills up between our teeth and gums!

 

[helen1]

And they're full of various sugars. And they need to stay there for at least 45 mins.

@boohealth

 

[LynnJ]

I'm confused about these oils, though. How much are you getting per pump? For the life of me I can't seem to find that info on their website....

 

[Kathevans]

I believe each pump delivers .75mg and that amount in animal testing delivered about 80% absorption, so about .60mgMeB12. If, as Fred suggests, we absorb 20-30% from the Enzymatic up under our gums, this would be the equivalent of 2-3,000 mcg, or 2 or 3 Enzymatic tablets.

That said, in the trial I've been running on myself one pump a day did not cover my needs as well as 3 tablets would have. I ended up sucking on another one during the day and a half in the evening to cover symptoms. I'm a mystery, though, still trying to figure out what cause some symptoms--and thinking it's perhaps the combination...

 

[LynnJ]

Hm. I'll have to do some more reading on this. If it's really supposed to be just as good as the sublingual B12, I might give it a try.

 

[Johnmac]

Hm. I'll have to do some more reading on this. If it's really supposed to be just as good as the sublingual B12, I might give it a try.

Uptake is a lot higher than with sublingual, based on the science Greg cited me (80% vs. 5-15%), and also my experience. Plus no new dentistry bills.

 

[CCC]

My son used the sublingual then switched to the oil once the sublingual dose was high enough.

@ahmo wrote something that suggested 10-15mg of sublingual methylb12 = 1 spray of methyl b12 oil. It was a smooth transition, even if it took a while to get used to an even spread of methyl b12 instead of an exciting spike.

We then moved on to adenosylB12 and tried the same approach. But this was different.

With the adenosyl, my son describes it as filling up different buckets. The oil fills up one bucket, but the spike from the sublinguals fills up a different bucket altogether. So he does both: the combined adenosyl/methyl oil in the morning, with sublingual adenosylb12 late in the afternoon/evening. The evening adenosyl b12 sublingual helps him get a good night's sleep.

 

[Athene*]

[QUOTE="Lynn_M, post: 705527, Last week I started using Greg’s B Group pump, hoping the transdermal mode and the ability of the B Vitamins to slowly drip, drip in when they are metabolized via transdermal application, will finally get some Vitamin B2 in to my metabolism.

I have been using Greg’s adeno/methyl B12 pumps for almost 3 years, and the MMA on my OAT test has dropped quite a bit since I first started using it. I started out with B12 registering as my only deficiency on a Spectracell Micronutrient test. MY MMA is now in the very low end of the reference range, which, if you don't know about MMA, is very good..

@Lynn_M I have been using the b12oils methyl form for about a month now and Greg has suggested I take b2 supplement in tablet form. He didn't mention the b2 in the mixed oil form that you mention - I like it that he never tries to sell me anything! He is very helpful and very knowledgeable, I agree. Did Greg say why you're not absorbing your b2 from supplement? I worry I might not either with my multiple issues. Good to hear about your MMA! I would love to know how much (how many pumps) of the oils you use daily and how many pumps of the mixed b (I might just try it for the b2)?

 

[JRS]

Hello All, newbie here. I have very low b12's and have been trying to raise for 5 years now. Tried methyl, hydrox, liquid, sublingual and patch - all intolerable -became agitated, anxious, increase in Gerd, etc. My problems also include thyroid as it was removed 30 years ago. 10 years ago when I began having Gerd placed on PPI - that started a down hill venture with a list of health struggles.

Finally I have been able to get stabilized for just under a year. I have communicated several times with Greg at b12oils and he has been very helpful with plenty of info and guidance. I just started on the methyl/adeno combo a couple of weeks ago and this is the first time I have been able to tolerate b12! Don't want to jinx myself but hope that the improvements continue. I definitely feel that it comes in slower into my system so I am able to tolerate easier than any other active form. I am taking it slow and unfortunately can only use a small amount of the squirt, so a lot of it goes to waste. However, I do notice a difference! Much more energy, more alert, better mood, and less anxiety. The big test will come when I test again which won't be for a month or 2.

Greg did also mention Se(in methylselenocysteine) which he said was important. I do take Lynch's B minus which seems to have sufficient B2 - I wonder tho whether transdermal is any better than the pills ? Greg didn't respond to that.

My challenge is converting enough T4 to T3 (hoping that this new Se) will help for that. No Iodine for me as I do have Hash's (although haven't tested for those levels yet).

Am hoping that the B12 will help me get off the small does of anti-depressant I was given for my thyroid. Had a very bad episode and CNS went completely out of whack. So just grateful that I am functioning again like a normal person.

This is a great forum, thanks for all the sharing of such great information. I only decided to try the oils from lurking around.

Best of health wishes to all.

 

[Johnmac]

Hello All, newbie here. I have very low b12's and have been trying to raise for 5 years now. Tried methyl, hydrox, liquid, sublingual and patch - all intolerable -became agitated, anxious, increase in Gerd, etc. My problems also include thyroid as it was removed 30 years ago. 10 years ago when I began having Gerd placed on PPI - that started a down hill venture with a list of health struggles.

Finally I have been able to get stabilized for just under a year. I have communicated several times with Greg at b12oils and he has been very helpful with plenty of info and guidance. I just started on the methyl/adeno combo a couple of weeks ago and this is the first time I have been able to tolerate b12! Don't want to jinx myself but hope that the improvements continue. I definitely feel that it comes in slower into my system so I am able to tolerate easier than any other active form. I am taking it slow and unfortunately can only use a small amount of the squirt, so a lot of it goes to waste. However, I do notice a difference! Much more energy, more alert, better mood, and less anxiety. The big test will come when I test again which won't be for a month or 2.

Greg did also mention Se(in methylselenocysteine) which he said was important. I do take Lynch's B minus which seems to have sufficient B2 - I wonder tho whether transdermal is any better than the pills ? Greg didn't respond to that.

My challenge is converting enough T4 to T3 (hoping that this new Se) will help for that. No Iodine for me as I do have Hash's (although haven't tested for those levels yet).

Am hoping that the B12 will help me get off the small does of anti-depressant I was given for my thyroid. Had a very bad episode and CNS went completely out of whack. So just grateful that I am functioning again like a normal person.

This is a great forum, thanks for all the sharing of such great information. I only decided to try the oils from lurking around.

Best of health wishes to all.

Can't say I'm too surprised to read of your success with the oils. They are a great product, & a good solution to those of us suffering from reactive stomachs, rotting teeth & low B12 penetration. The Greg approach (part of which is adding in B2) also means less money on carnitine, folate, et al - & no more titration nightmares.

I fixed my GERD by taking betaine hydrochloride - employing the theory that GERD is not enough acid rather than too much. It took 3 days. Chris Kresser's website has IMO the best description of this approach.

I've never had any problem taking the B2 orally. I noticed a big jump in effect when I added it to the mix. Greg told me 40mg/day was "tons". He has a multi-B oil I think, but I don't know how much B2 is in it.

My mood went right up on B12, I assume because it kicked up serotonin. I also noticed (what I assume to be) better catecholamine production - and now spend more time entranced by trees, clouds & stars. My forest looks like something out of Alice in Wonderland, whereas before it was just a forest.

 

[Kathevans]

I apologize in advance for a long post, but issues always seem to overlap, these relating not just to the oils, but general methylation as well.

I continue to trial the B-12 Oils, the Basic MeB12 Oil, and I have had many an email conversation with Greg and learned a lot from him and this site.

When I use the oils, they are easy and terrific and mouth-saving, but if I use them more than one day in a row, something goes awry. Or perhaps over-stimulates. My sleep deteriorated badly over the past several days. The last two I used the oils and felt terrific during the day, but at night I pretty much stopped sleeping at all—even with bits of valium or Ambien, which I hate to use. I know @Johnmac has said some in his family had partially sleepless nights, and that he felt euphoric for the first week on the oils. I was undoubtedly somewhat euphoric, as I found myself washing the kitchen floor last night after spending two exhausting hours cooking. I believe @ahmo has also said the oils seem to be the equivalent of 10-15mg of MeB12 lozenges. Perhaps since I have only titrated up to 5mg MeB12 or so, I’m not ready for theconcentration the oils offer. Or, as Johnmac says, since they chug along for about 36 hours, maybe I ought to use them every other day, and/or scrape away half of the blob before rubbing it in.

I’d increased my B2 levels, something Greg advises, to about 60mg/day, and stopped MeB12 and Folate for about a week, though Greg didn’t say this was necessary. I just wanted to see exactly what the B2 was doing. It was clear that it helped with muscle tightness, particularly what I’ve been calling my tight face, though I now recognize this as nothing more than a continued neck muscle tightness from the back to the sides and front, very hard, very sore to the light press. It was also clear (I think!) from bowel issues, that I still needed Folate.

As I increased the B2, my potassium requirements increased as well. (Although I know some people’s decrease @Athene*) And when I added in the MeB12 and Folate, I noticed most of all that they had a much stronger effect than they had before, that by having the B2 as a base, I was actually getting or receiving the B12 and folate in a way that I hadn’t before. Good enough.

But potassium symptoms—the irregular heartbeats that do respond to K+ began to appear throughout the night. More at night than during the day, possibly because the body at rest does more healing work? I was up drinking about 300mg of Potassium gluconate in a big glass of water at least twice a night. Which meant that I was up to pee often. Of course, anticipating your heart going into irregular rhythms is no way to relax and go to sleep. So two questions:

1. Those of you who need potassium supplementation, how do you take it during the day? Do big doses in the day allow for the night to pass without supplementation? I’ve been drinking the concoction a half hour or more before a meal, thus arriving at the end of the meal ready to take my Folate (as per Fred’s dictate to take it an hour away from Folate). If I do this 3-5 x a day, no problem, but I can’t do it another 2x during the night. I’m getting that uncomfortable bolus at the base of my throat, that harbinger of GERD, or REFLUX.

2. If you take your potassium with your meals so that you can take more of it at a time (and the truth is, with adrenal and gut issues, aren’t we supposed to limit what we sip at a meal so that our stomach acid can become sufficient and heal us?), then when do you take magnesium? Or don’t you? Magnesium is one of the things I titrated up on a few years ago and it has been very helpful. It’s an antagonist to potassium, right? In fact, I was reading just the other day on another thread (http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index.php?/topic/2078-bulletproof-magnesium-thread/), that low magnesium gave @mgk headaches and neck and shoulder pains. She also noticed that her magnesium needs increased with increasing B12 use. On the other hand, @Sherpa felt that what he perceived as potassium needs may have been a need for AdoB12, which @mgk had postulated--those muscle twitches some us get at night before or during sleep, which are one of the many side effects of MAO inhibitors, and very likely, our MAO+/+ snps, that we’re treating with B2.

As to the GERD/REFLUX issue, thanks @Johnmac for the Chris Kesseler link. It’s comprehensive and excellent. I’ve had a hard time in the past tolerating Betaine HCL. But who knows. Kessler apparently has a low dose supplement. There are 5-6 articles that begin here: http://chriskresser.com/what-everybody-ought-to-know-but-doesnt-about-heartburn-gerd/

My sleeplessness might also relate to high glutamate in my diet, specifically the raw cabbage I’ve been grating into my salads at lunchtime—very high, I’ve read; and, sad to say, the wonderful bone broth I’ve been making and adding to my breakfast soup—this from the gelatin. Apparently hard for those with leaky blood/brain barriers and sensitivities to MSG to tolerate. @Gondwanaland. Greg’s recommendation to eat 3 Brazil nuts/day, to help convert thyroid T3 to T4 (I think it is) may, for someone with normal thyroid like me, hype up a gland that didn’t need hyping.

I’ll just have to keep experimenting.

For the moment I feel a bit beat up.

 

[Gondwanaland]

My sleeplessness might also relate to high glutamate in my diet, specifically the raw cabbage I’ve been grating into my salads at lunchtime—very high, I’ve read; and, sad to say, the wonderful bone broth I’ve been making and adding to my breakfast soup—this from the gelatin. Apparently hard for those with leaky blood/brain barriers and sensitivities to MSG to tolerate. @Gondwanaland. Greg’s recommendation to eat 3 Brazil nuts/day, to help convert thyroid T3 to T4 (I think it is) may, for someone with normal thyroid like me, hype up a gland that didn’t need hyping.

This sounds like you are having an increased need for B6 (I see you mentioned B12, folate, B2 but no B6 - see the link in my sig citric acid cycle - and B6 is responsible for making magnesium work). Now be very careful with it because it increases serotonin and this isn't always a good thing. I suppose that taking it at the same amount as B2 is safe, but since I am +/+MAO-A I would take a little more of B2 than of B6.

You aversion to Brazil Nuts might be related with excess amines and oxalates and incresed need for B6 to metabolize them. Also be aware that B6 will give a thyroid boost, increasing the need for iodine and selenium, so go very carefully with it.

 

[Johnmac]

Hi Kath,

Sorry you're beat up. )-: Sleeplessness is awful: you can see why they use it as a torture.

Yeah, 2-3 brazil nuts a day give you tour selenium, apparently vital to the mB12 process (not just thyroid).

Our sleeplessness was a real pain, and lasted at least a month. It's completely gone now. It was adrenalin most likely (Greg says). The B12 is very 'upstream', and so many things get moving once you are getting a good whack of it. (Fred's pointed this out often.) I think the oil has such superior penetration that we get a lot, and sometimes that's a shock after long periods on sublingual.

You need iodine (iodised salt's enough), selenium & B2 to make it all work, & minimise the sleepleless & hasten its departure, as I understand.

Yes, maybe every alternate day for B12 is better for you: Greg would know best tho.

Yes, I also noticed a big jump in B12's effectiveness when I added more B2 to the mix. I'm on 40mg/day right now, tho I don't supplement if I've had enough yogurt.

I'm actually chucking out pills, slowly, & replacing them with food sources. I've had enough of pill-juggling, & the imbalances it so easily brings on.

Did you talk through the low-K symptoms with Greg? He has been studying K recently I believe, so may have some insights. In a nutshell I found high K demand on the Freddd protocol (as forecast), but when switching down to the oil (methyl & adenosyl) + B2 - nothing, & no deficiency symptoms. I suspect that B2 does a real lot. What else could it be?

All the best....

I apologize in advance for a long post, but issues always seem to overlap, these relating not just to the oils, but general methylation as well.

I continue to trial the B-12 Oils, the Basic MeB12 Oil, and I have had many an email conversation with Greg and learned a lot from him and this site.

When I use the oils, they are easy and terrific and mouth-saving, but if I use them more than one day in a row, something goes awry. Or perhaps over-stimulates. My sleep deteriorated badly over the past several days. The last two I used the oils and felt terrific during the day, but at night I pretty much stopped sleeping at all—even with bits of valium or Ambien, which I hate to use. I know @Johnmac has said some in his family had partially sleepless nights, and that he felt euphoric for the first week on the oils. I was undoubtedly somewhat euphoric, as I found myself washing the kitchen floor last night after spending two exhausting hours cooking. I believe @ahmo has also said the oils seem to be the equivalent of 10-15mg of MeB12 lozenges. Perhaps since I have only titrated up to 5mg MeB12 or so, I’m not ready for theconcentration the oils offer. Or, as Johnmac says, since they chug along for about 36 hours, maybe I ought to use them every other day, and/or scrape away half of the blob before rubbing it in.

I’d increased my B2 levels, something Greg advises, to about 60mg/day, and stopped MeB12 and Folate for about a week, though Greg didn’t say this was necessary. I just wanted to see exactly what the B2 was doing. It was clear that it helped with muscle tightness, particularly what I’ve been calling my tight face, though I now recognize this as nothing more than a continued neck muscle tightness from the back to the sides and front, very hard, very sore to the light press. It was also clear (I think!) from bowel issues, that I still needed Folate.

As I increased the B2, my potassium requirements increased as well. (Although I know some people’s decrease @Athene*) And when I added in the MeB12 and Folate, I noticed most of all that they had a much stronger effect than they had before, that by having the B2 as a base, I was actually getting or receiving the B12 and folate in a way that I hadn’t before. Good enough.

But potassium symptoms—the irregular heartbeats that do respond to K+ began to appear throughout the night. More at night than during the day, possibly because the body at rest does more healing work? I was up drinking about 300mg of Potassium gluconate in a big glass of water at least twice a night. Which meant that I was up to pee often. Of course, anticipating your heart going into irregular rhythms is no way to relax and go to sleep. So two questions:

1. Those of you who need potassium supplementation, how do you take it during the day? Do big doses in the day allow for the night to pass without supplementation? I’ve been drinking the concoction a half hour or more before a meal, thus arriving at the end of the meal ready to take my Folate (as per Fred’s dictate to take it an hour away from Folate). If I do this 3-5 x a day, no problem, but I can’t do it another 2x during the night. I’m getting that uncomfortable bolus at the base of my throat, that harbinger of GERD, or REFLUX.

2. If you take your potassium with your meals so that you can take more of it at a time (and the truth is, with adrenal and gut issues, aren’t we supposed to limit what we sip at a meal so that our stomach acid can become sufficient and heal us?), then when do you take magnesium? Or don’t you? Magnesium is one of the things I titrated up on a few years ago and it has been very helpful. It’s an antagonist to potassium, right? In fact, I was reading just the other day on another thread (http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index.php?/topic/2078-bulletproof-magnesium-thread/), that low magnesium gave @mgk headaches and neck and shoulder pains. She also noticed that her magnesium needs increased with increasing B12 use. On the other hand, @Sherpa felt that what he perceived as potassium needs may have been a need for AdoB12, which @mgk had postulated--those muscle twitches some us get at night before or during sleep, which are one of the many side effects of MAO inhibitors, and very likely, our MAO+/+ snps, that we’re treating with B2.

As to the GERD/REFLUX issue, thanks @Johnmac for the Chris Kesseler link. It’s comprehensive and excellent. I’ve had a hard time in the past tolerating Betaine HCL. But who knows. Kessler apparently has a low dose supplement. There are 5-6 articles that begin here: http://chriskresser.com/what-everybody-ought-to-know-but-doesnt-about-heartburn-gerd/

My sleeplessness might also relate to high glutamate in my diet, specifically the raw cabbage I’ve been grating into my salads at lunchtime—very high, I’ve read; and, sad to say, the wonderful bone broth I’ve been making and adding to my breakfast soup—this from the gelatin. Apparently hard for those with leaky blood/brain barriers and sensitivities to MSG to tolerate. @Gondwanaland. Greg’s recommendation to eat 3 Brazil nuts/day, to help convert thyroid T3 to T4 (I think it is) may, for someone with normal thyroid like me, hype up a gland that didn’t need hyping.

I’ll just have to keep experimenting.

For the moment I feel a bit beat up.

 

[Kathevans]

@Gondwanaland Yes I thought of the B6 myself, and actually thought of increasing the amount of the B complex I take to keep things in balance. Currently, this is only 1/2 of Ben Lymch's B-Minus, which keeps the levels of the basics fairly low...as far as B complexes go. Also, I hadn't known about B6's relationship with Magnesium. So many inter-relationships... Why isn't serotonin a good thing for you? It seems iimportant for me...calming. I always think of it as part of why I chant with my Buddhist friends- studies have shown it increases serotonin. So, yes, more of that, please!

I absolutely feel over-adrenalized... @Johnmac. I will drop Greg an email on this and the potassium issue. And as to weaning oneself off the supps and towards food sources, it is my dream, always there as something I am working towards. For the moment I'm thinking of all these supps as supporting my body while it gets back on its feet...so to speak!

Thanks, guys.

 

[Athene*]

@Kathevans Sorry you're feeling rough, Kath. I've had hugely high potassium needs too, as you know. But, I'm now on 125mg b2 daily and gradually dropping the potassium (and huge 5MTHF dose). Have so far, over 5 or 6 weeks on b2, managed to drop potassium from 3500mg to 1800mg daily, and 5MTHF from 40,000mg to 24,000mg. We spoke about Greg's advice re adrenaline, aldosterone and potassium in an earlier thread and it really made sense for me. I remember you saying you came off beta blockers? If I'm right, then as far as I know, beta blockers can raise potassium somewhat, so I wonder if that's why your need for potassium has increased so much lately?

I can only advise from my own experience, and I found the potassium was a life-saver while I needed it (and still do, but less) but I do believe the adrenalin/aldosterone/potassium loop is righting itself with the addition of b2 and perhaps the b12oil I'm using too - making for a smoother delivery. I also now manage the Ado cbl with the addition of biotin 300ug daily. I take a quarter of b6 sometimes, not every day = 12mg or so. I need lots of magnesium and calcium. (Yes, I separate magnesium and potassium by the way).

I still have a way to go, but things are looking much better right now. I can now walk for 40mins per day without any after crash, and I am sleeping better - 7 hours the last three nights. This is from someone who regularly stayed awake all night long, or got by on 3 or 4 hours for years.

The other thing I would say is that I've needed a mix of both @Freddd's Deadly Quartet (lower doses now), and Greg's protocol of transdermal b12 plus b2, and I need thyroid support too. I am on a mix of Erfa (NDT) and t3. It's finally getting into my cells. Like @Johnmac I take a little iodine (a crumb of Iodoral) and selenium in supplement form as well as a couple of brazil nuts daily. The other good thing is that my adrenals seem to be healing (also like @Johnmac's experience) - since adding 5MTHF and b2 especially. I am now on 10mg of hydrocortisone daily and I was on 25mg daily, and I will continue to taper off it, hopefully. I was a hot mess before all of this, and on occasion I even thought I was dying or at least heading for a wheelchair - at one stage I was sinking to the ground unable to get up - flaccid muscles and severe weakness, and after crawling upstairs I would pass out for the rest of the day, then stay awake all night, weak and in pain. Torture. You get the picture..

 

[Mary]

@Kathevans - re potassium - yes, taking enough during the day obviates the need for me to take any during the night. I take potassium glycinate with my meals, 3 x day, between 200 - 300 mg. per meal. I also try to have a glass of low-sodium V8 which has 900 mg. potassium chloride, and I do okay with this. I take magnesium with meals too! I seem to be doing okay on this protocol. Recently my potassium requirements seem to have gone done a little, more often I only take 200 mg. with each meal. I don't know why, I presume it's a good thing.

 

[Kathevans]

I can now walk for 40mins per day without any after crash, and I am sleeping better - 7 hours the last three nights. This is from someone who regularly stayed awake all night long, or got by on 3 or 4 hours for years.

This is very heartening, Athene. Thanks for this detailed response. I've found as I've gone down on the B2 and then raised it again recently to about 40-50mg/day (a combo of FMN from Source Naturals and my B-Minus Complex has 10mg in the half I take each day) that taking the B2 with dinner and even an hour or so before bed may be helping my sleep. Though I'm still nervous about actually saying that! Seven hours for three nights, amazing! I know just what you mean about staying awake all night, or getting no more than 3 or 4 hours. I regularly bargain with the universe for 5 hours. You know, at this point even an extra hour can make so much difference.

Life can be so grindingly exhausting on this much sleep.

I'm sure you'll see my other posts on: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/page-19#post-723154
And: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...s-b-12-treatment-plan.3566/page-8#post-723027

flaccid muscles and severe weakness

I get the weakness, as well as sore muscles and tendons. It's getting me to order some of the Methyl/Ado B12 Oils, which Greg said I could begin to titrate with a drop. I've got to find a way to get more of the DQ into my system.

Thanks one and all for your support...

 

[dannybex]

When I use the oils, they are easy and terrific and mouth-saving, but if I use them more than one day in a row, something goes awry. Or perhaps over-stimulates. My sleep deteriorated badly over the past several days. The last two I used the oils and felt terrific during the day, but at night I pretty much stopped sleeping at all—even with bits of valium or Ambien, which I hate to use.

This study found that "Sleep time was significantly reduced under MB12 intake."

 

[Kathevans]

@dannybex I've seen this study before, and mentioned it to Greg who said just the opposite, and seems to resist this view. I've also heard people say that when they got enough folate they seemed to get more of the neurotransmitters. Still others have mentioned lower melatonin and talked about supplementing with l-tryptophan or 5htp, which I sometimes do to good effect. I seem to respond better to the l-tryptophan, though it has been pointed out that the pathway to absorbing it can lead to pain issues...

Do you have experience to add to the pot here?!