@GhostGum, I agree its complex and people are all over the map. Nonetheless, if someone says, problems with the active B's are due to a B2 deficiency--and toleratiing hydroxy is also due to a B2 deficiency because you're not converting, that's a pretty bold statement that means everybody else has missed something simple and easy. I am interested to hear more from @Johnmac in a few weeks. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?
- Thread starter boohealth
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Agree it's a bold statement. And I haven't verified it yet. It's what I've been told, & the source is a scientist who's been working with B12 for 25 years, & it seems to be working so far.
But that's it for the moment. Yep, it may take a few weeks. Right now I'm off the floor (bad crash) & roughly back to where I was on the FP...
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@Justin30 B12oils.com
Something else Greg mentioned to me I hadn't seen elsewhere is that to be able to use B2, you need enough T3 and T4 because they convert B2 into it's useable forms, FMN and FAD. So we need to be sure we have selenium and iodine in diet or supplements; in other words if we're hypothyroid, B2 won't be useable.
Maybe that's why some have had good results with FMN and not B2...
@Johnmac
Something else Greg mentioned to me I hadn't seen elsewhere is that to be able to use B2, you need enough T3 and T4 because they convert B2 into it's useable forms, FMN and FAD. So we need to be sure we have selenium and iodine in diet or supplements; in other words if we're hypothyroid, B2 won't be useable.
Maybe that's why some have had good results with FMN and not B2...
@Johnmac
Greg will not like me reproducing this here, but I am simply too lazy to edit it so that it does not appear as a direct quote. Honestly he should be here doing it himself occasionally, but I think he tends not to want to put stuff 'out there' for fear of wasting time in contradictory conversations.
"Going through lots and lots of data, the common thread to many people's problems is low or inactive vitamin B2/riboflavin. Riboflavin is converted to FMN and FAD, which are essential co-factors in many, many enzyme reactions. The relevance for methylation is huge, thus MTHFR, MTRR and Thymidine synthase, all require FAD, so just to get proper folate cycling and methylation need FAD. We know that methylation is a key factor for CFS, etc.
Next there is the use of betaine (TMG) for use in the methylation cycle. The breakdown of BMG and MMG (which come after betaine is stripped of one methyl group) requires FAD, so you cna't completely use betaine if your FAD levels are low.
Then we have the relevance to the synthesis and break-down of neurotransmitters. Critical in this is the formation of BH4, which is dependent upon an active folate cycle. BH4 is required for synthesis of DOPA, serotonin, and also for incorporation into NOS. NOS also requires FAD/FMN and iron. The break-down of neurotransmitters Dopamine, Epinephrine, nor-epinephrine, serotonin and HISTAMINE (in reference to your second link) uses MAO (which the majority of CFS/ME people are +/+ in), which has FAD as an essential co-factor. The intolerance to histamine that is often seen in CFS sufferers is most likely an FAD deficiency (from B2).
FAD is also required in the synthesis of heme, which is an essential part of NOS, peroxidase, myeloperoxidase and SUOX, and FAD is also required directly for SOD."
@boohealth I attempted to understand it myself for sometime, like with the above correspondence but just ended up concluding what I have said here, and just refining it by myself in practise; plus working on other aspects of my rehab I found just as important and realise now play a role in the chemistry as well. But B2 and the other right co-factors, prior to tackling B12 would be the ideal approach IMO.
"Going through lots and lots of data, the common thread to many people's problems is low or inactive vitamin B2/riboflavin. Riboflavin is converted to FMN and FAD, which are essential co-factors in many, many enzyme reactions. The relevance for methylation is huge, thus MTHFR, MTRR and Thymidine synthase, all require FAD, so just to get proper folate cycling and methylation need FAD. We know that methylation is a key factor for CFS, etc.
Next there is the use of betaine (TMG) for use in the methylation cycle. The breakdown of BMG and MMG (which come after betaine is stripped of one methyl group) requires FAD, so you cna't completely use betaine if your FAD levels are low.
Then we have the relevance to the synthesis and break-down of neurotransmitters. Critical in this is the formation of BH4, which is dependent upon an active folate cycle. BH4 is required for synthesis of DOPA, serotonin, and also for incorporation into NOS. NOS also requires FAD/FMN and iron. The break-down of neurotransmitters Dopamine, Epinephrine, nor-epinephrine, serotonin and HISTAMINE (in reference to your second link) uses MAO (which the majority of CFS/ME people are +/+ in), which has FAD as an essential co-factor. The intolerance to histamine that is often seen in CFS sufferers is most likely an FAD deficiency (from B2).
FAD is also required in the synthesis of heme, which is an essential part of NOS, peroxidase, myeloperoxidase and SUOX, and FAD is also required directly for SOD."
@boohealth I attempted to understand it myself for sometime, like with the above correspondence but just ended up concluding what I have said here, and just refining it by myself in practise; plus working on other aspects of my rehab I found just as important and realise now play a role in the chemistry as well. But B2 and the other right co-factors, prior to tackling B12 would be the ideal approach IMO.
It's one of the two useable forms of B2 in your body. B2 has to convert to it (and FAD) before cells can use it.
Edit: just read GhostGum's post. More details there, Justin!
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Thanks all. Greg said he'd go over it all w/ me when I have time. I'm willing to read the original papers, too.
Careful on selenium--my mother supplemented and got some weird thing on her kidney they had to biopsy as it could have been cancer but it was benign. Some of us sequester selenium and maybe mercury since that displaces selenium. Check to see if your soil is depleted (if you eat local) before you go hog wild on selenium.
Careful on selenium--my mother supplemented and got some weird thing on her kidney they had to biopsy as it could have been cancer but it was benign. Some of us sequester selenium and maybe mercury since that displaces selenium. Check to see if your soil is depleted (if you eat local) before you go hog wild on selenium.
@GhostGum, Greg wouldn't be allowed to post here if he wanted to as it would be seen as promoting products that he sells, which is against forum rules.
I'm curious if anyone (@John Mac) knows what the precise amounts of the b-vitamins are in the multi-b oil? The description is very general and vague on the site.
I'm curious if anyone (@John Mac) knows what the precise amounts of the b-vitamins are in the multi-b oil? The description is very general and vague on the site.
@dannybex He could comment on methylation without promoting anything. The knowledge and discussions, especially relating to peoples genetic results, are far too valuable to worry about some conflict of interest in my opinion. Its a massive loss to this community and anyone who wanders in here interested in methylation.
Journeyman
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I used to read through this kind of list and dismiss things like point V about the dental caries. I started my methylation journey in early 2013 and religiously downed at least 1mg of Methyl B12 soaked on the tongue for the requisite 30 mins etc. every day till about May 2015. Why did I stop at this point? Because I saw a dentist in April 2015 who described the amount of wear on my teeth as being equivalent to a 70 year old, and sure enough my teeth would be painful eating even the most innocent foods. In Australia one dentist quoted me about $18k to repair the teeth using tooth implants and crowns etc. Even at a more reasonable price theres about $12k of damage done so PLEASE all of you pay attention to this point..... I wish it was emphasised more in these forums back in early 2013 when I took up this process... I would have used the B12 oils right from the start.
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so where do yo get these b12 oils from?
Kathevans
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I have the B-12 oils and have trialed them about 18 times. The issue for me is whether there is enough B-12 (I'm using the simplest one, plain MeB12) to enable my cells to 'receive' or utilize the folate I take, as I try to keep the ratio to about 4-5:1 because of my snps. Some of my symptoms have gotten more insistent, but frankly, it could be a number of things!
I think Greg is terrific and would love to see a thread where he actually participates and offers his complete views. His knowledge, as far as I'm concerned, rivals anyone's. Though bear in mind I'm not of a scientific bent!
I think Greg is terrific and would love to see a thread where he actually participates and offers his complete views. His knowledge, as far as I'm concerned, rivals anyone's. Though bear in mind I'm not of a scientific bent!
Thanks @helen1, I appreciate it. Rather microscopic, but might be good for those of us who have problems with b6. How many 'squirts' per bottle?
I agree it would be great if he could post here. Just saying that the PR mods/owners might not agree and if history is any gauge, would probably see a conflict of interest.