Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Athene*]

As you can see just above, I may be too erratic. I'm going to try to hold my folate levels to 1200 for a while (at least that's my thought in the moment!) On 1200 mcg folate, many of my neck face symptoms of tightening muscles let go and I'm left with just soreness and a lot of tingling. Last night with the extra 200mcg folate, I felt the muscle in my right arm (somewhat atrophied and sore) aching and my carpal tunnel active (which it hadn't been for a while) I took this as a sign that more folate was reaching older spots that required healing; and that this was really my body asking for more folate still. But, I don't want to jump in on this as the whole electrolyte level thing is such a concern of mine.

My usual potassium supplementation is 4 doses of 1/2 rounded tsp gluconate--about 300mg. So that's 1200 mg/day. But then, on a regular basis I eat lentils (1/2 cup= 350-400mg), oranges (possibly 300mg) or some other piece of fruit, squash and 8 oz of coconut water (400mg or more), and a hefty serving of some kind of squash for dinner (490mg/cup of cubes!). So as you can see, this may be as much as another 100-1400mg of potassium.

And maybe it's just too much... (Yesterday I got up to 5 doses of potassium and that, along with dehydration, may have pushed me over the edge)

We're closing the gap between my original high-dose and yours - I'm now on 1500mg potassium daily (like you, food sources on top of that - orange, potatoes, courgette). And I'm on 1600mg 5MTHF. I think I'll hold things as they are for a while now. I don't want to change things too fast. Meant to say on other post - my b2 isn't 200mg daily anymore. I'm now on 100mg daily, 25mg x4. I'm looking at Molybdenum food sources now. G says it's good for thyroid, along with a bit of iodine, the selenium and b2. Hope you have a good weekend

 

[Johnmac]

P.S. @Johnmac I remember you saying your blood glucose was up and that it might relate to your recent infections. I just got my blood results back. Wow, b2 has raised my ferritin beautifully and in only a few weeks. My iron saturation is perfectly normal again too, now at top of range (it had gone below normal range) and all the iron markers are really good now. Also my hypothyroidism is improving as a result (t3 still a bit low in range) but cholesterol has normalised (low normal) as a result of thyroid improvement and cortisol looks good and high (though serum isn't 100% reliable, it's still a lot higher than before).

The thing I noticed is that my blood glucose, although normal at 5.2 nmol/L (3.5-5.5) has risen by a few points. Isn't that interesting? It's something I've noticed before - when iron goes up, blood sugar goes up. I guess we better not take too much b2 - have asked G about this in relation to iron. But it really is a magic vitamin

*Edit: He wasn't worried about the iron/sugar thing. Could be the cortisol raising it, not sure

Those really are excellent changes - well done. Tho I can't say I'm surprised, as the protocol does work well for me too.

Had no idea iron could raise blood sugar.

 

[Johnmac]

It is all very complicated and I think I must ask Greg about the relationship potassium has to his particular protocol.

You're right, Fred believes that the higher the lower Bs--B2, say--the higher need (insatiable is his word) for potassium and folate. Like you, and many here, I've been very sensitive to all supplements and approached this with caution. I'm also on a very low dose beta blocker which can increase potassium levels. If we are following the Fred Protocol, irregular heartbeats have two basic causes--low folate or low potassium--so when the symptom shows up, we try one or the other. Or both.

Which is what I did last night. First the extra potassium, 300 mg gluconate in 1/2 tsp., then a half hour later when my heartbeat was still a bit wobbly, 200mcg of folate. I've only recently increased my folate levels after holding them to about 800mcg/day for quite a while. So, just up to 1200mcg folate, with this extra 200 and within a half hour I was so relaxed, but I realized very quickly, not in a comfortable way. My heartbeat was VERY SLOW, my chest felt heavy, like someone was sitting on it, and I felt like I might just stop breathing.

That was enough to give me a shot of adrenaline! I spent a while on the phone with an on-call nurse and learned one antidote to high potassium levels - water. I may also have been a bit dehydrated as I'd been racing around all day (the result of .6 squirt of the B12 Oils, maybe too much for me still). So I just stayed awake, reading most of the night, and in the end, had to take a tiny dose of valium to help me let go of the hyper-state I'd put myself into. All for 2 hours of sleep.

That said, I'm still kind of shaky and feeling that the whole irregular heartbeat episode might not have been either a need for potassium or folate, but rather the adrenals waking up, as has been reported here lately, I think. Part of Greg's protocol, where he has us having 3 Brazil Nuts/day to stimulate the thyroid with their selenium. For me, the extra thyroid stimulating hormone my be too much as my thyroid has been functioning well within normal ranges. My cardiologist said she'd never give me anything to stimulate my thyroid because of my tendency toward irregular beats, so it may not be a good part of the approach for me.

But of course, it could be something else entirely. The adrenals waking up. And I think that is the B2. (Please chime in, those of you who know better)

So, there you are, another quagmire. For me, no Brazil nuts today! And just 3-5,000mcg MeB12 in the old Enzymatic lozenges! (Oh, and I'd lowered my B2 levels as I've been trying to figure this out--to about 30-35mg/day)

Interesting. B2 got me a lot more energetic - seemed to potentiate the B12. But it wasn't hyper.

And it actually obviated the need for potassium, thus ending all those thumping heart episodes I had when I suddenly ran out of K.

 

[SJB944]

Interesting. B2 got me a lot more energetic - seemed to potentiate the B12. But it wasn't hyper.

And it actually obviated the need for potassium, thus ending all those thumping heart episodes I had when I suddenly ran out of K.

Love to know why b2 obviated the need for potassium!

 

[Kathevans]

6 weeks on b2 (working up from 30mg to 200mg daily) and my adrenals are working on their own.

Amazing and heartening. Interesting, too that we seem to be working our way toward center from both ends of the spectrum. As per this very thing, I'm very slowly working with levels of B2 and folate--to which I now respond very strongly with exhaustion--the tingling and tightening in my head, ears, neck slowly occur within a half hour of taking the folate and pass over the next hour or so. I said the other day I was going to hold the folate to 1200, but the one day I did, it felt overboard and yesterday I backed up to 800, only to find that some minimal heart issues were resolved by 1/4 FMN, 1/4 Enzymatic:250mcg, and 1/4 Folate: 100mcg. Maybe today I'll go with 1,000. My sense is that it's a moving target till you get to what your body needs.

Amazing how close I have to listen to my body.

I feel hopeful, like you and others. But I still have questions about many aspects of the protocol--the potassium, for one, and the Brazil nuts for another. In the end, it's all very individual. Like all of this.

But it will be very interesting to see what story your genes can clarify or add to what you already have discovered!

And btw, after over doing with the potassium two days ago, I only took one dose yesterday. But when I woke at 5 a.m with about five irregular beats, it was potassium that resolved the issue within 5 minutes, as always. today I'll take two doses and see what happens tonight. But you're right @Johnmac, the B2 does something to the potassium requirements...

 

[boohealth]

Some say seaweed could be contaminated with mercury.

@Athene, the world is contaminated with mercury. Mercury global deposition is huge, and carried on the jetstream. It is brought down by storms. It is everywhere.

 

[Johnmac]

Love to know why b2 obviated the need for potassium!

No idea, sorry. It does work (for me) though. I haven't had potassium supplements for weeks, & with the transdermal my B12 dosage is probably higher than before.

I did find a(n unrelated) snippet from Greg, who said that he & his industry colleagues abandoned sublingual around 1988, as they could foresee the dental problems.

 

[Johnmac]

Love to know why b2 obviated the need for potassium!

What I do know from talking to Greg is that:

* CFS people are usually B2-deficient, going by all the testing.

* B2 works because one is B2-deficient. (It would have no effect otherwise, right?)

* If one is B2-deficient you can't recycle folate thru the methylation pathway (you don't gain methyl groups from the folate pathway), so standard amounts of folate don't work...

* ...Thus you need big amounts. And that messes up folate cycling, because you have tons more folate in the cell than you need (sometimes 50-100 times as much).

* And if you are B2-deficient you also use tons more B12 (because you need B2 for MTRR).

I'm guessing that higher potassium demand somehow comes from either or both of those dynamics.

* Incidentally, as has been discussed here recently, B2 is crucial for iron processing. B2 deficiency precedes iron deficiency.

To paraphrase: CFS isn't a B12 thing, it's a B12 and B2 thing.

 

[CCC]

* Incidentally, as has been discussed here recently, B2 is crucial for iron processing. B2 deficiency precedes iron deficiency.

Does this mean that we might need to supplement iron after some time on B2?

I've read here (from the B2 thread), that B2 mobilises Fe from the liver. So if we're on high B2 doses to correct a deficiency, what does that do to Fe in the long run?

 

[Gondwanaland]

There is clearly a link between the Krebs cycle with the thyroid that goes overlooked. I get low iodine symptoms from B2/B6 supplementation (increased hair loss, depression). I wonder if the increased need for potassium is to slow down T4->T3 conversion (which I think B2/B6 do by increasing the T4 output).

 

[Kathevans]

To paraphrase: CFS isn't a B12 thing, it's a B12 and B2 thing.

The problem, as always is trying to 'read' how your body is responding to each thing. I'm not sure that one day in a row tells us anything (@Gondwanaland just look at all the miraculous 1 day responses we have!). When I told Greg that it seemed as if Folate levels were driving my symptoms, he said,

"Folate may look like it is driving the process, but if it is then it is because you still don't have your MTHFR working. If it was you should only need 400-800 ug folate (of any source) per day. If you need more, then either your methyl B12 is too low, or you have a block at MTHFR, due to B2 deficiency."

So it's actually a matter of perspective. Maybe what looked like all those folate symptoms was just because I didn't have enough B2 to make what I had on hand work. It's nothing more than the 'paradoxical folate deficiency' that I had so long because I didn't have adequate MeB12.

All of it takes time. As you say, @Johnmac, you might start out with too much folate in your cells and that release could cause issues. My potassium need seems to have gone down a bit--from 4-5/day to 3.

I'll keep you posted...

@CCC Check out @Athene*'s latest post a bit ago in this thread for a personal experience with iron/ferritin levels on the B2/MeB12 protocol.

 

[garyfritz]

Do we know what form of B2 is required? Plain old rinoflavin, or only R5P, or...?

 

[Kathevans]

Do we know what form of B2 is required? Plain old rinoflavin, or only R5P

Greg rails against the coenzymated forms of vitamins as a rip off, though I've always like them as the Country Life B-Complex, at least, was easy to digest with no burping or unpleasant taste. Little did I know there wasn't enough B12 in it for me! But that was another issue.

As to B2, Greg says plain old B2 as riboflavin, but I'm sure r5p which is the same as FMN, would be fine, too. I've combined both the Source Naturals FMN sublingual (very fast entry into bloodstream as a sublingual) with a low dose Thorne r-5-p. Then still, there's a small bit in my multi--more r-5-p, I think. Others take straight up riboflavin, which would make Greg happiest.

 

[SJB944]

What I do know from talking to Greg is that:

* CFS people are usually B2-deficient, going by all the testing.

* B2 works because one is B2-deficient. (It would have no effect otherwise, right?)

* If one is B2-deficient you can't recycle folate thru the methylation pathway (you don't gain methyl groups from the folate pathway), so standard amounts of folate don't work...

* ...Thus you need big amounts. And that messes up folate cycling, because you have tons more folate in the cell than you need (sometimes 50-100 times as much).

* And if you are B2-deficient you also use tons more B12 (because you need B2 for MTRR).

I'm guessing that higher potassium demand somehow comes from either or both of those dynamics.

* Incidentally, as has been discussed here recently, B2 is crucial for iron processing. B2 deficiency precedes iron deficiency.

To paraphrase: CFS isn't a B12 thing, it's a B12 and B2 thing.

Thanks for this, it is an interesting hypothesis.

Certainly doesn't exactly fit, at least not simply, for me. I tried b2 on it's own with no great success, whereas mb12 and Methylfolate with the deadlock quartet had a huge impact. But that said, the body shifts and changes, certainly after getting methylation going, so what once was the case, may no longer be etc

It all depends on what is actually going wrong with methylation -- low b2 could certainly be one factor, and definitely is for some here. Obviously b2 only had a minor role to play for Fred.

And is there a point where taking more b2 has the opposite effect, and increases need for methylfolate and potassium, like experienced by Fred?

As always, we tend to find more questions than answers. But if it works, it works.

 

[Gondwanaland]

As to B2, Greg says plain old B2 as riboflavin, but I'm sure r5p which is the same as FMN, would be fine, too. I've combined both the Source Naturals FMN sublingual (very fast entry into bloodstream as a sublingual) with a low dose Thorne r-5-p. Then still, there's a small bit in my multi--more r-5-p, I think. Others take straight up riboflavin, which would make Greg happiest.

Kath, check this out page 1273, below the table 130-2

 

[Johnmac]

Yep, he told me ordinary old B2 as well.

 

[garyfritz]

I've been taking http://methyl-life.com/product/non-methyl-multi/, which includes 20mg of R-5-P. But given my mysterious voracious appetite for B12, and my possibly-borderline hypothyroid condition, maybe I should experiment with a higher level. On Greg's advice I think I tried as much as 100mg/day at one point, and didn't notice any difference, but maybe I should try it again...

 

[Johnmac]

I've been taking http://methyl-life.com/product/non-methyl-multi/, which includes 20mg of R-5-P. But given my mysterious voracious appetite for B12, and my possibly-borderline hypothyroid condition, maybe I should experiment with a higher level. On Greg's advice I think I tried as much as 100mg/day at one point, and didn't notice any difference, but maybe I should try it again...

Be interested to hear if it makes any difference Gary.

My 40mg/day seems adequate for me. (I do it in 2 doses: Greg says "little & often" is best for most things.)

 

[Athene*]

Those really are excellent changes - well done. Tho I can't say I'm surprised, as the protocol does work well for me too.

Had no idea iron could raise blood sugar.

http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/blog/ironing-it-out-linking-diabetes-with-iron-intake/

Cheers @Johnmac Still working on thyroid levels, but going well. This article mentions iron/blood sugar too, though the particular research mentioned has more relevance for women. Might be worth checking it out elsewhere for men. Seems to be when stored iron (ferritin) gets too high..but I think one of Greg's ultimate aims is to get us mobilising our stored iron from the liver so when we're operating optimally we should be ok

 

[Athene*]

I've been taking http://methyl-life.com/product/non-methyl-multi/, which includes 20mg of R-5-P. But given my mysterious voracious appetite for B12, and my possibly-borderline hypothyroid condition, maybe I should experiment with a higher level. On Greg's advice I think I tried as much as 100mg/day at one point, and didn't notice any difference, but maybe I should try it again...

Hi @garyfritz I think I put this in the wrong place before (you were asking about my husband's borderline hypothyroid level that he fixed with iodine). To answer your question, his low temp and tiredness went away within weeks and he stayed at that dose (12.5mg) for a year before dropping down to a maintenance dose of 2mg. His thyroid tests were much improved too - perfect now. Iodine protects against prostate issues as well, though he never had any, but it's good to prevent things. Recently he began taking some b12 as well just to be on the safe side. His b12 level was normal, but it helps his sleep, and he likes to take it because it's neuroprotective for the future. I just remembered he also takes 30mg b2 daily (in a b complex supplement) - he just takes that a few times per week though, cos he has a good diet and drinks milk etc. He was under a lot of stress when they found the borderline thyroid results so perhaps it was high cortisol that suppressed his levels. Nevertheless he's feeling great now. Long may it last!