Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Athene*]

Amazing and heartening. Interesting, too that we seem to be working our way toward center from both ends of the spectrum. As per this very thing, I'm very slowly working with levels of B2 and folate--to which I now respond very strongly with exhaustion--the tingling and tightening in my head, ears, neck slowly occur within a half hour of taking the folate and pass over the next hour or so. I said the other day I was going to hold the folate to 1200, but the one day I did, it felt overboard and yesterday I backed up to 800, only to find that some minimal heart issues were resolved by 1/4 FMN, 1/4 Enzymatic:250mcg, and 1/4 Folate: 100mcg. Maybe today I'll go with 1,000. My sense is that it's a moving target till you get to what your body needs.

Amazing how close I have to listen to my body.

I feel hopeful, like you and others. But I still have questions about many aspects of the protocol--the potassium, for one, and the Brazil nuts for another. In the end, it's all very individual. Like all of this.

But it will be very interesting to see what story your genes can clarify or add to what you already have discovered!

And btw, after over doing with the potassium two days ago, I only took one dose yesterday. But when I woke at 5 a.m with about five irregular beats, it was potassium that resolved the issue within 5 minutes, as always. today I'll take two doses and see what happens tonight. But you're right @Johnmac, the B2 does something to the potassium requirements...

It is good about the adrenals, Kath, thanks. It has included getting the 5MTHF into me as well as the b12, but the b2 has really helped - maybe because the adrenals need iron and the b2 brought my iron and ferritin up (really marked improvement there). I still have a bit of a t4 to t3 conversion issue and the iodine and b2, while helping a lot haven't lessened the need for thyroid hormone (mainly t3), but that's not surprising - the hypothyroidism has been a longstanding and intractable issue. Happily though I do notice it's improving slowly for the first time in years.
'Moving target' is a good phrase re folate. It's a difficult one. I do hope to be able to ditch the folate and potassium eventually. Still needing both, but I'm hoping that the when the thyroid level picks up then I will begin to produce enough FAD without the need for the other supplements (*edit - except for b2 - that's always needed for FAD to FMN conversion, but one needs adequate t3 & t4 level for this too, so will always need t3 & t4 too). I'm definitely stronger and have more energy but I do get tired and a bit cold after a long walk. This is a big improvement on being bedridden though!
Haven't sent the 23andme sample yet, but the OAT showed I was very low on b12 and a few other things were off (including b2).
Just out of curiosity - have you tried the temperature testing for adrenals?

 

[Gondwanaland]

To answer your question, his low temp and tiredness went away within weeks and he stayed at that dose (12.5mg) for a year

Did he build up slowly to that dose?

 

[Athene*]

Did he build up slowly to that dose?

Yes, he began with about 3mg daily, then 6.25mg then 12.5mg. (we used a 12..5mg Iodoral tablet, cut into pieces at first).
He was careful to keep up with vitamin C (not at same time as iodine) and magnesium and plenty of liquid and often pulsed the iodine, or added salt if he got tired or when acne or insomnia came.
I kept checking his resting temp and when it became optimal i.e. 97.5 Fahrenheit on waking, and 98.6 F (he began with 94-96 in afternoon) by afternoon, we stopped increasing, and stayed at 12.5mg daily.
He also got his bloods done first to make sure he had no thyroid antibodies because apparently iodine irritates some with Hashimotos (though I've seen it help others on iodine forums..)
He needs no more than 2mg daily now

 

[Kathevans]

Kath, check this out page 1273, below the table 130-2

Yes! Thanks for this. I can't understand it all, but what seems clear is the connection between how well our thyroids are functioning and our need for B2. Greg is spot on about this. To make it easier to scan, I've transcribed the text for those of you who are interested. It really helps us to see the vital role the riboflavin plays in our physical dysfunctions. Thanks again to @Gondwanaland for providing this link:

"FMN. T4 augments rat flavokinase and increases the formation of FMN. In addition, thyroid hormones increase the conversion of FMN to FAD by augmenting the converting enzyme, FAD pyrophosphorylase. Conversely, in hypothyroid states decreased formation of the riboflavin coenzymes FMN and FAD occurs, which produces a hepatic coenzyme profile that mimics true riboflavin deficiency.

Because of the regulatory control of thyroid hormone on riboflavin metabolism, extra riboflavin may be needed in both hypothyroid and hyperthyroid states. This is true in hypothyroidism because of the decreases synthesis of FMN and FAD, and in hyperthyroidism because of the increased utilization of riboflavin and its conversion to active forms.

Erythrocyte glutathione reductase, an FAD-dependent enzyme, can be used to define riboflavin nutriture. In hypothyroid humans, erythrocyte glutathione reductase activity is reduced. T4 therapy results in normal levels of this enzyme, demonstrating that thyroid hormone regulates the enzymatic conversion of riboflavin to its active coenzyme forms in the human adult.

Thyroid hormones also appear to control the formation of another class of flavins that is covalently bound to tissue protein. The rate of formation of these covalently bound flavins is increased in the brains of rats that are stimulated with triiodothyronine (T3) and T4. This is striking, in that brain tissue is thought to be resistant to the metabolic effects of thyroid hormones.

Riboflavin deficiency affects thyroid hormonal function and metabolism. Thyroid hormones control flavoprotein enzymes, but are less effective as enzyme inducers in riboflavin deficiency because the necessary FMN and FAD are not available for enzyme stabilization. Riboflavin deficiency retards the hepatic deiodination of T4, which is a flavin coenzyme-dependent process.

Riboflavin metabolism also depends on pituitary and adrenal hormones. Administration of adrenocorticotropic hormones (ACTH) to rats increases the formation of FMN and FAD from riboflavin in the adrenal cortex, kidney, and liver. Aldosterone increases the renal incorporation of riboflavin into FAD; spirono-lactone blocks this effect. Structural analogs of riboflavin inhibit the formation of FMN and the action of aldosterone, suggesting that part of aldosterone function is flavin coenzyme dependent."


THUS, stimulating our thyroids with the Brazil nuts makes more sense and the effect of B2 on our adrenals begin to become clearer. (Excuse any typos; I'm sure I missed some!)

 

[Kathevans]

Just out of curiosity - have you tried the temperature testing for adrenals?

I've only done the saliva test for my adrenals and the results were pretty much flat throughout the day (should be highest in the morning) I'd like to redo it sometime soon. As to iodine, it took me months to titrate up to the 3 drops/day that I take, the 220mcg dose. Maybe I could do more now, but who knows...

Note how far @Gondwanaland's post goes toward clarifying just how the riboflavin helps with all aspects of thyroid. I have to tell you, today, once again, I was flying on about 2 1/2 hours of sleep. I dragged through the morning, but after an hour's nap after lunch, took off.

I don't want this to continue, obviously. Does Greg say how long it takes to settle? I know @Johnmac says the B12 Oils (which I'm still on and off) take about a month to adjust to. For me, this is just the B2 effects. I have to say, it's pretty powerful stuff. My facial tightening issues keep shifting, chin to jaw, sore to tired to tight. I can see it's the B2/folate combo. Somehow, the more B2 I get to help the folate work, the more my tightness issues heal/change.

Off to my epsom salts bath. I need to relax and try for a bit more sleep tonight! But again, a happy, lighthearted mood is so much better than dragging on the ground depression.

I've walked three days in a row now and my feet, achilles tendons in particular, don't hurt. At one time I could hardly walk for a year or more... (and I haven't even begun the Ado B12, though my combo oils just arrived from Australia today. I'm going to take it slow!)

 

[Gondwanaland]

As to iodine, it took me months to titrate up to the 3 drops/day that I take, the 220mcg dose.

Do you have autoimmunity? Do you have hypothyroidism?What are the supporting supplements to Iodine you are taking besides the Bs?

Se + E? C? Zn+Cu? D? Mn? Mg?

 

[Gondwanaland]

I can't understand it all, but what seems clear is the connection between how well our thyroids are functioning and our need for B2. Greg is spot on about this.

I think that Greg is wrong when he says there is no need to take coenzymated B2

 

[Johnmac]

I've only done the saliva test for my adrenals and the results were pretty much flat throughout the day (should be highest in the morning) I'd like to redo it sometime soon. As to iodine, it took me months to titrate up to the 3 drops/day that I take, the 220mcg dose. Maybe I could do more now, but who knows...

Note how far @Gondwanaland's post goes toward clarifying just how the riboflavin helps with all aspects of thyroid. I have to tell you, today, once again, I was flying on about 2 1/2 hours of sleep. I dragged through the morning, but after an hour's nap after lunch, took off.

I don't want this to continue, obviously. Does Greg say how long it takes to settle? I know @Johnmac says the B12 Oils (which I'm still on and off) take about a month to adjust to. For me, this is just the B2 effects. I have to say, it's pretty powerful stuff. My facial tightening issues keep shifting, chin to jaw, sore to tired to tight. I can see it's the B2/folate combo. Somehow, the more B2 I get to help the folate work, the more my tightness issues heal/change.

Off to my epsom salts bath. I need to relax and try for a bit more sleep tonight! But again, a happy, lighthearted mood is so much better than dragging on the ground depression.

I've walked three days in a row now and my feet, achilles tendons in particular, don't hurt. At one time I could hardly walk for a year or more... (and I haven't even begun the Ado B12, though my combo oils just arrived from Australia today. I'm going to take it slow!)

I had up and down energy for about a month, tho the main early side-effect was sleeplessness. I sleep fine now & energy is more level.

 

[Athene*]

I've only done the saliva test for my adrenals and the results were pretty much flat throughout the day (should be highest in the morning) I'd like to redo it sometime soon. As to iodine, it took me months to titrate up to the 3 drops/day that I take, the 220mcg dose. Maybe I could do more now, but who knows...

Note how far @Gondwanaland's post goes toward clarifying just how the riboflavin helps with all aspects of thyroid. I have to tell you, today, once again, I was flying on about 2 1/2 hours of sleep. I dragged through the morning, but after an hour's nap after lunch, took off.

I don't want this to continue, obviously. Does Greg say how long it takes to settle? I know @Johnmac says the B12 Oils (which I'm still on and off) take about a month to adjust to. For me, this is just the B2 effects. I have to say, it's pretty powerful stuff. My facial tightening issues keep shifting, chin to jaw, sore to tired to tight. I can see it's the B2/folate combo. Somehow, the more B2 I get to help the folate work, the more my tightness issues heal/change.

Off to my epsom salts bath. I need to relax and try for a bit more sleep tonight! But again, a happy, lighthearted mood is so much better than dragging on the ground depression.

I've walked three days in a row now and my feet, achilles tendons in particular, don't hurt. At one time I could hardly walk for a year or more... (and I haven't even begun the Ado B12, though my combo oils just arrived from Australia today. I'm going to take it slow!)

He doesn't really give a time limit, Kath, but looks like things are looking up for you in many ways! The sleep thing is variable. I find it v difficult to tolerate iodine too (even with all the co-factors) and I've been trying to increase it. Result = insomnia last two days. I never had thyroid antibodies on testing over the years, but who knows, maybe they don't always show.
The theory is always so elegant in these articles and in Greg's explanations. I do love when the logic matches our symptoms. Very reassuring.
He is spot on as you say. He knows more about what thyroid and adrenal and b12 and b2 insufficiency can do to a body than anybody I've ever consulted. I'm improving hugely as I've written about, but my problem continues to be with t4. No matter how much iodine I try, with the selenium on board, the b2, the molybdenum from food that he also recommends, I just can't convert any amount of t4 - even a tiny amount, so I rely mostly on straight t3. I know though that both t3 and t4 are necessary for FAD to FMN conversion and I probably won't be fully better until I get some t4 on board. It does tend to create reverse t3 for me though, even with healed adrenals and good iron levels.
Still, it's early days. I expect it will take another few months, at least, to get thyroid working optimally and then things should come together.
Maybe sooner for you, since you don't appear to have significant thyroid issues from what you've said. It is curious that you don't manage much iodine either. If you find out why (besides the iodine aggravating Hashimotos theory - which doesn't appear to apply to you/me) do let me know! In the meantime, happy walking and hopefully we'll get back to sleeping properly very shortly!
PS wouldn't it be interesting to see how your adrenals are doing/saliva test, since b2? But if you're anything like me, your wallet will be getting considerably lighter from all these tests.

 

[dogged_days]

@Athene I wish I could know something. I am flying completely blind except for thyroid results.
No thyroid for 13 years. I have no tests to guide me. I need a few desperately.

A sign for me was how good I felt after myers cocktail. Googled Bs. I just happened to start co factors for cutler protocol, as I’m starting chelation. These contained Bs. Among them, B2. Within a few days I noticed the B2 on board, much warmer. Two weeks later I found FP, dropping follinic (taken for years). That brought results so I thought mtfhr. Things started really moving. Flew up to 30 mgs folate within a month. At 20mg$ now, but still feel like I could easily do 30, or even more. Started Freddd’s 2 months ago. Started oils 2 weeks ago. FP initiated methylation within a month. I had to separate Bs, reduce hydrocortisone, reduce iodine. It’s been up and down. Coming out of a 2 week crash, my worse yet. Still absolutely need hydrocortisone, but dose was cut by half. Always amazed I come back. Always amazed my feet hit the floor every morning. I read every word every one writes, but managing this roller coaster is something else. Waiting for the oils to even things out. I got the B group oil but I’m not sure I want niacin right now, as this has it.
B group contains:
Dose per 0.25 ml squirt
Vitamin B1 Thiamine 0.5 mg
Vitamin B2 Riboflavin 0.025 mg
Vitamin B3 Nicotinamide 2.5 mg
Vitamin B5 Pantothenol 1.25 mg
Vitamin B6 Pyridoxal 1.25 mg

I have to drop my oral Bs and figure this dosing out in order to bring this group B on board, if decide to do it. I’ve just settled into 2 solgar b2 (still playing with FMN) and 1 p5p. I don’t quite know how the oils correlate to the oral dosing. I started on 1 squirt per day/mb12, now I am on 3. 3 brought me back from the crash 3 days ago. Also got the adeno B oil. My needs feel very high right now. But I think it will start to even out. It’s been hellish, but productive, I guess.

 

[Kathevans]

Do you have autoimmunity? Do you have hypothyroidism?What are the supporting supplements to Iodine you are taking besides the Bs?

Se + E? C? Zn+Cu? D? Mn? Mg?

I'm taking 400 Gamma E, about 20-25mg zinc, 2,000 liposomal D, about 500 mag, occasional 5mg mg. I ate 3 Brazil nuts/day for the last couple of months, but stopped two days ago to see if it would have any effect on my nighttime irregular heartbeats (not so far). It's probably time for a hair mineral test to determine my mineral levels. I did come across this bit on the copper-zinc balance:

http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-...d-diets-and-a-contributor-to-chronic-fatigue/

But as to autoimmunity and hypothyroidism, no. I do have Epstein Barr and micoplasma, but I think Greg says that supplementing B2 and MeB12 will help eliminate them.

wouldn't it be interesting to see how your adrenals are doing/saliva test, since b2?

I have an adrenal test here at home and haven't been able to test it because of dry mouth issues (bacterial/fungal), but am trying to hydrate enough to overcome that. As to cost, I am very lucky because I have insurance that costs a small fortune through my husband. It doesn't, of course, cover any alternative doctors, so that's out of pocket. As are supps, the cost of which I'd hate to add up at present!

Because you mentioned it, I began to think of the 'stitch' in my back just under my ribs as my adrenal gland. I've been having pain there at night for the last couple of months when I sit up in bed. I thought it was just the way I was sitting. But as of last night a bell went off--as my heart already had and I was waiting for the 10mg Propanolol to kick in--and I realized it was adrenals. So it seems to me that the irregular beats--and the three episodes of wild speedy irregularity that I've had over the last month may be due to the adrenals. Though the thyroid may be participating in this as well. I've stopped the 2 Brazil nuts for the moment, but so far no change. I think I just have to weather it.

You ask if I've tried the temperature testing for adrenals, and the answer is that I haven't. I ought to look into it. A special thermometer, right?

I did switch my b-Complex to the Jarrow B-Right because it seemed to have a little of the most things. Just a half/day for the moment, in 2 equal doses. And I would note @dogged_days that the amount of Bs in the oil seems to be very low, at least for Fred's Protocol. Perhaps, like the B-12 Oils, it has more penetration than anything taken orally, so at bottom, I really can't say. Also, I didn't see any B-12 in your list, a most important B vitamin, especially if you have certain genetic issues in the MTR, MTRR area, as I do. I wish you well as you try to find your balance.

There is nothing more disturbing than having your heart beat uncontrollably in your chest. It makes lying awake at night seem like a breeze! That said, I'm very tired today and I have to go get my hair done. It doesn't sound like fun...

One foot in front of the other.

 

[Athene*]

@Athene I wish I could know something. I am flying completely blind except for thyroid results.
No thyroid for 13 years. I have no tests to guide me. I need a few desperately.

A sign for me was how good I felt after myers cocktail. Googled Bs. I just happened to start co factors for cutler protocol, as I’m starting chelation. These contained Bs. Among them, B2. Within a few days I noticed the B2 on board, much warmer. Two weeks later I found FP, dropping follinic (taken for years). That brought results so I thought mtfhr. Things started really moving. Flew up to 30 mgs folate within a month. At 20mg$ now, but still feel like I could easily do 30, or even more. Started Freddd’s 2 months ago. Started oils 2 weeks ago. FP initiated methylation within a month. I had to separate Bs, reduce hydrocortisone, reduce iodine. It’s been up and down. Coming out of a 2 week crash, my worse yet. Still absolutely need hydrocortisone, but dose was cut by half. Always amazed I come back. Always amazed my feet hit the floor every morning. I read every word every one writes, but managing this roller coaster is something else. Waiting for the oils to even things out. I got the B group oil but I’m not sure I want niacin right now, as this has it.
B group contains:
Dose per 0.25 ml squirt
Vitamin B1 Thiamine 0.5 mg
Vitamin B2 Riboflavin 0.025 mg
Vitamin B3 Nicotinamide 2.5 mg
Vitamin B5 Pantothenol 1.25 mg
Vitamin B6 Pyridoxal 1.25 mg

I have to drop my oral Bs and figure this dosing out in order to bring this group B on board, if decide to do it. I’ve just settled into 2 solgar b2 (still playing with FMN) and 1 p5p. I don’t quite know how the oils correlate to the oral dosing. I started on 1 squirt per day/mb12, now I am on 3. 3 brought me back from the crash 3 days ago. Also got the adeno B oil. My needs feel very high right now. But I think it will start to even out. It’s been hellish, but productive, I guess.

Thanks for this @dogged_days It sure is a roller coaster. That's interesting about the niacin in the b group oil. It did strike me as quite high in relation to the other components. I've given up my oral b-complex too and I use b12oil x 2 sprays daily with an extra bit of Ado sublingual with the second spray of b12 (I use the b group oil which contains Ado with the first b12 spray). I must order the Meb12/Ado oil blend.
I find it amazing to come back from crashes too - when you're in one you think it's over and you'll never get back on your feet again. And there are some days I feel like I'm back to my old self.

I'm not having severe crashes anymore (touch wood) but some days I'm quite achy and stiff and fatigued (feels like hypothyroidism) and for some reason I find the Ado hard to take, though I am persevering with it.
I see you're having thyroid issues too. With no thyroid it's crucial, obviously, to get enough t3 and t4. What do you use? Did you find iodine difficult too?

Yes, I'm still needing methylfolate too. 18mg daily now. Can't ditch it until thyroid picks up, otherwise I'd crash. Still needing potassium too, but only half as much (1500mg daily now of potassium gluconate, and food potassium too)

I've noticed that the aches and pains and coldness are very much influenced by the female hormone cycle. I would love to know if any other women here experience this. One friend of mine said I reminded her of when she did fertility treatment - I'm having these massive estrogen and testosterone surges every so often, and hyper ovulating for a few days here and there. It's as if the ovaries are being hyper stimulated (which they probably are after being dormant on and off for years due to thyroid and b12 deficiency).

But it's very hard to manage the hormone overload when it happens. And estrogen when it gets too high blocks thyroid and cortisol. When there's progesterone around, I feel much much better. Of course progesterone creates more cortisol in the body, so that explains why. Like you, I've needed hydrocortisone, but I've come off it recently. There are some days when estrogen is high that makes me feel like I need hydrocortisone again, but I don't resort to it, and I'm fine again in another few days. It's great for you that you've managed to cut your hydrocortisone.

It's so difficult to plan anything in life isn't it? Even the smallest thing. It could be a really good day tomorrow or next week etc, or it could be a day of being cold, achy and tired...Still, at least the good days are there sometimes. I hope your own comebacks keep coming

 

[Athene*]

P.S. @dogged_days Greg says oral b complex is unnecessary when you're using the b group oil. There's enough absorption there for our needs. The only thing is it doesn't contain b12 obviously, or folate, so we need that too

 

[Athene*]

I'm taking 400 Gamma E, about 20-25mg zinc, 2,000 liposomal D, about 500 mag, occasional 5mg mg. I ate 3 Brazil nuts/day for the last couple of months, but stopped two days ago to see if it would have any effect on my nighttime irregular heartbeats (not so far). It's probably time for a hair mineral test to determine my mineral levels. I did come across this bit on the copper-zinc balance:

http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-...d-diets-and-a-contributor-to-chronic-fatigue/

But as to autoimmunity and hypothyroidism, no. I do have Epstein Barr and micoplasma, but I think Greg says that supplementing B2 and MeB12 will help eliminate them.



I have an adrenal test here at home and haven't been able to test it because of dry mouth issues (bacterial/fungal), but am trying to hydrate enough to overcome that. As to cost, I am very lucky because I have insurance that costs a small fortune through my husband. It doesn't, of course, cover any alternative doctors, so that's out of pocket. As are supps, the cost of which I'd hate to add up at present!

Because you mentioned it, I began to think of the 'stitch' in my back just under my ribs as my adrenal gland. I've been having pain there at night for the last couple of months when I sit up in bed. I thought it was just the way I was sitting. But as of last night a bell went off--as my heart already had and I was waiting for the 10mg Propanolol to kick in--and I realized it was adrenals. So it seems to me that the irregular beats--and the three episodes of wild speedy irregularity that I've had over the last month may be due to the adrenals. Though the thyroid may be participating in this as well. I've stopped the 2 Brazil nuts for the moment, but so far no change. I think I just have to weather it.

You ask if I've tried the temperature testing for adrenals, and the answer is that I haven't. I ought to look into it. A special thermometer, right?

I did switch my b-Complex to the Jarrow B-Right because it seemed to have a little of the most things. Just a half/day for the moment, in 2 equal doses. And I would note @dogged_days that the amount of Bs in the oil seems to be very low, at least for Fred's Protocol. Perhaps, like the B-12 Oils, it has more penetration than anything taken orally, so at bottom, I really can't say. Also, I didn't see any B-12 in your list, a most important B vitamin, especially if you have certain genetic issues in the MTR, MTRR area, as I do. I wish you well as you try to find your balance.

There is nothing more disturbing than having your heart beat uncontrollably in your chest. It makes lying awake at night seem like a breeze! That said, I'm very tired today and I have to go get my hair done. It doesn't sound like fun...

One foot in front of the other.

I just use a Geratherm thermometer, Kath - you can get them on Amazon. Much more reliable than digital, I find. They're similar to using the old-fashioned mercury one, without the mercury (I couldn't bear to have a mercury one in the house - imagine dropping it and breaking it on your bathroom tiles...)
Yep, adrenal pain is an old familiar. I used to feel very tender in the lower back above the kidneys, even if I lay flat it could hurt a bit. Turning in bed could be agony. I got the flank pain (in the left side radiating down to hip and even down leg - like sciatica) but a hydrocortisone doses would make it go away in a few hours. I haven't had it for a while now - fingers crossed.

Your heart problem could possibly be due to the adrenals, like you say - as you know the adrenals produce mineralocorticoids like aldosterone - especially important for fluid and electrolyte balance, and as Greg said - when we start using b12 without enough b2 in our system, we get flooded with adrenalin and this triggers massive aldosterone dumping into the bloodstream, which in turn lowers potassium. The reason is because our adrenals don't work properly after years of b12 deficiency and so they don't make enough adrenalin (or cortisol if it goes on long enough). So there are tons of adrenalin precursors hanging around which get triggered when b12 is added. This is still happening to me, but nothing like as bad. So I'm not using such huge amounts of potassium anymore. And I don't need hydrocortisone to suppress huge adrenalin surges now either.

Things get dicey when estrogen is rising though (blocks my thyroid and cortisol hormones). Do you find that? Some say the b12 makes their estrogen and testosterone rise hugely (men too/testoserone). Greg says lots of things will fire up in the body and things will be in a state of havoc for a while. I would do anything for a bit of stability, but I'm very glad that things are 'firing up' so to speak

You mentioned the b group oil above, I think. I just answered @dogged_days re what Greg told me about it being enough to cover the oral b complex needs. We still need the B12 and 5MTHF too though. I use two sprays of the b12 oil daily and one spray of the b group oil (by the way @dogged_days, it has Ado in it - maybe you know already) - Greg told me it has 0.5mg Ado instead of the 0.65mg (.75?) per spray in the Meb12/Ado mix so it's a good one to start with for me. He said it might be easier for me because I find Ado a bit hard to take, but I will soon get the Meb12/Ado mix I think. Are you using that one now, Kath?

 

[Athene*]

PS @dogged_days The b group oil also has biotin in it (recently added). It helps Ado to work. But it has only a small amount of b2, so you may need more of that (so it's good you're taking that separately)

 

[Gondwanaland]

when estrogen is high that makes me feel like I need hydrocortisone again

I suppose one can lower estrogen with a bit more B2, B6 and vit C (?)

 

[Gondwanaland]

adrenal pain is an old familiar.

Selenium relieves it for me

 

[Athene*]

I suppose one can lower estrogen with a bit more B2, B6 and vit C (?)

I'm on b2 75-100mg daily now. Vit C from food and raw Camu powder (someone recommended it, not sure it works, but supposed to be v good). I hadn't been taking much b6, but it's in the b group oil I've started last week, so hopefully. I would welcome a break from this..

 

[Athene*]

Selenium relieves it for me

Interesting. From food or supplement? I take selenocysteine most days and brazil nuts if I can get decent ones

 

[Athene*]

Yikes, I just realised I wrote 15mg of potassium daily, above. I'm just editing it now. 1,500mg!