Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Athene*]

Have you ever looked at these: http://www.bodybio.com/ minerals? This is how I titrated up beginning with magnesium, then iodine, most recently zinc. I felt the effects of each additional drop--and there were times when I'd begin with a drop in a quarter cup of water and so on. I think I may begin to do selenium that way... I can find Brazil nuts at my local Whole Foods, but sometimes a rather large percentage of them taste moldy!

Thanks for this. I'll check it out.
Decent Brazil nuts are hard to find. They're mostly from Bolivia here, even the ones that say 'Brazil nuts'. I'm not sure what the selenium content of Bolivian soil is...
Brazil nuts in their shells are supposed to be higher in selenium,
https://honey-guide.com/2012/11/19/brazil-nuts-and-selenium/
but I can't find them in shops here

 

[Athene*]

@dogged_days You've made me think about my adrenals again I notice you mention you're on 10mg hydrocortisone, down from 25mg. I was on 25mg for two years and gradually titrated down over the past 6 months. I dropped my last 10mg only a few weeks ago.

It's probably too soon to expect the adrenals to pick up and work optimally just yet. Now that I think of it, I get more energy in the late evening and near bedtime, so my cortisol is still too high at night (always had this problem) and still too low in the morning and afternoon (was so low originally I couldn't get out of bed). Only feels a bit low during the day now.

In a way, this is all good though. Before I tried b2 with the b12 that I was already on, my adrenals would crash when I tried to reduce hydrocortisone even by 2mg. Now I've managed to drop all 25mgs and I'm not flat on my back in bed, unable to lift my head. I'm up and about and a bit cold and achy here and there and have some insomnia. I'm still functioning reasonably well, and I'm getting about 4 hours sleep per night.

I'm now going to concentrate on nourishing the adrenals with more vitamin C. Maybe go back to higher dose b2 for a while?

Any tips on nourishing the adrenals/getting circadian rhythm to work/getting some more sleep? Maybe I need more Meb12? I dropped from 3 or 4 sprays to 2 sprays a couple of week ago...

 

[Kathevans]

spring onions?

Are these Bermuda onions? The red ones? They're the ones I eat raw on my salads

 

[Kathevans]

Any tips on nourishing the adrenals/getting circadian rhythm to work/getting some more sleep?

You mentioned Vitamin C, of course. Liposomal, if you can tolerate it. It energizes me so much I can't sleep at night, which of course, is just what we don't want to do! Have you tried DGL licorice? It apparently helps with recycling cortisone. And then, there's Pantethine--another B. I have some and tried it for a while, but I think it affected my sleep negatively. Though who knows if that was it...!

Four hours of sleep...I often bump along on that....I've been sick for 20 years, myself. It's not so easy to bounce back...

As for the circadian rhythms, I find that B2 has a profound effect on sleep--especially in that I find myself waking up earlier and less likely to impossible that I'll go back to sleep again. Also that I'm more tired earlier in the evening. I try to get myself ready for bed early, to catch those first waves... At the same time, as I look back, there are some awful nights of insomnia--never mind about the heart irregularities that can enter the equation. @Johnmac's month of ups and downs doesn't sound so bad...! (I'm just jealous!)

Also, as to the B12 spray--I am definitely having more of a reaction to it than I did initially. I find that only a half of a squirt keeps me fairly revved throughout the day. I wonder if as things get going, you need less to hum along. Not that I'm humming....

 

[Athene*]

Are these Bermuda onions? The red ones? They're the ones I eat raw on my salads

I'd forgotten about the red onions - yes, they're nice too. The ones I meant are also known here as 'scallions'. The long green things with the little white bulb on top

 

[Kathevans]

Yes, scallions--particularly good in stir-fries.

As to sleep, there is at least one study that shows that B12 lowers melatonin levels and there are some who take a little extra in the form of 5htp or some other. @sregan posted this about it: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...serotonin-deficiency-caused-by-dq-supps.1871/

I wish I could find or remember the peer reviewed study that reported this; I think it had to do with older folks with sleep issues, though I'm not sure. Maybe someone else will recall it. I have taken very small amounts of l-tryptophan in the middle of the night to good effect. But for the most part, I'm pretty much a chicken when it comes to experimentation in the middle of the night.

 

[Athene*]

You mentioned Vitamin C, of course. Liposomal, if you can tolerate it. It energizes me so much I can't sleep at night, which of course, is just what we don't want to do! Have you tried DGL licorice? It apparently helps with recycling cortisone. And then, there's Pantethine--another B. I have some and tried it for a while, but I think it affected my sleep negatively. Though who knows if that was it...!

Four hours of sleep...I often bump along on that....I've been sick for 20 years, myself. It's not so easy to bounce back...

As for the circadian rhythms, I find that B2 has a profound effect on sleep--especially in that I find myself waking up earlier and less likely to impossible that I'll go back to sleep again. Also that I'm more tired earlier in the evening. I try to get myself ready for bed early, to catch those first waves... At the same time, as I look back, there are some awful nights of insomnia--never mind about the heart irregularities that can enter the equation. 2Johnmac's month of ups and downs doesn't sound so bad...! (I'm just jealous!)

Also, as to the B12 spray--I am definitely having more of a reaction to it than I did initially. I find that only a half of a squirt keeps me fairly revved throughout the day. I wonder if as things get going, you need less to hum along. Not that I'm humming....

Interesting about the spray. I dropped from 3 sprays (plus 1mg injection) to only 2 sprays, so yes, maybe we need less as we go along. I feel it's the b2 that helped me need less.

As regards circadian rhythm, I found the same thing with the b2, exactly as you describe.

I did something yesterday which might explain things - I dropped the B group oil and I slept 8 hours last night (how I wish this would continue forever!). The B Group oil has Adocbl in it 0.5mg. I had previously been using sublingual Ado, which probably doesn't last as long in the body as the oil, so maybe it was the Ado oil keeping me awake. Either that or some of the other ingredients in the BGroup. I'll have to test that later. I have a feeling it was the Ado though because I have had problems with it all along. I'll leave it for a few days and hopefully get the b2 benefit again. I'm not sure why this Adocbl is so troublesome for some of us, but I'm just letting you know about this in case you encounter similar problem with Ado oil, although you might even do well with it, and maybe I'll get used to it eventually. It's so important to take I really want to be able to...

 

[Athene*]

PS @Kathevans Thanks for Lipsosmal C suggestion etc. I've tried those other things with not much success, though never the Liposomal C. Do you have a link for it or do you make it yourself? (I've heard of others doing this)

 

[Athene*]

Yes, scallions--particularly good in stir-fries.

As to sleep, there is at least one study that shows that B12 lowers melatonin levels and there are some who take a little extra in the form of 5htp or some other. @sregan posted this about it: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...serotonin-deficiency-caused-by-dq-supps.1871/

I wish I could find or remember the peer reviewed study that reported this; I think it had to do with older folks with sleep issues, though I'm not sure. Maybe someone else will recall it. I have taken very small amounts of l-tryptophan in the middle of the night to good effect. But for the most part, I'm pretty much a chicken when it comes to experimentation in the middle of the night.

I wonder if that's when you take b12 without b2? I found that b12 on it's own made my sleep worse, but with b2 sleep normalised. Now I have to work out how to take Adocbl without insomnia...

 

[Kathevans]

Actually, I think I got it on Amazon and it's the Mercola product. I think his stuff is good even if a bit pricey. I agree with you on the need for the Ado B12 and really would like to be taking it. That said, I'm still trying to take enough B2 to cover the little bit of folate I took today--only 200mcg, but it definitely took away the pain I had in my hand and big toe joint (from dancing when I was younger!). Yet it makes my head feel tight and thus a higher need for the riboflavin. I'm thinking I need more still.

I tend to pulse the B12 oil, a day on, a day off, but after taking it two days running, I stopped it the other day and found exactly as you did--that I slept for 8 hours. What a relief. I keep wondering if there's something in the oils that effects me neurologically.

Well, I see your post in my email before I've posted this--perhaps with higher B2 I'll sleep better tonight! Thanks for all your thoughts @Athene*. It really does help to have another person going through similar struggles...

 

[dogged_days]

@dogged_days You've made me think about my adrenals again I notice you mention you're on 10mg hydrocortisone, down from 25mg. I was on 25mg for two years and gradually titrated down over the past 6 months. I dropped my last 10mg only a few weeks ago....

Yes, I'm headed downward, as well. It's been yet another tough transition, after being on it for 5 years at that dose, the body is working very hard right now. I can't expect it be smooth. It has been fraught with crashes, but I feel the change. It's strange to need less, it's fantastic and difficult and scary, but it's all going in the right direction and it's very heartening.

@dogged_days
Any tips on nourishing the adrenals/getting circadian rhythm to work/getting some more sleep? Maybe I need more Meb12? I dropped from 3 or 4 sprays to 2 sprays a couple of week ago...

Well, I'm still taking a lot of pills, so that's about all I can offer. But I take melatonin (<1mg) with 4 l-tryptophan (500). This works great for me. I take them every night. I had severe insomnia all my life, hypothyroid at a young age. If I awaken and can't get back to sleep a country time mb12 helps. I also may try the b2...

A note on thiols:

I stopped all mineral supps in October ’15, after the (2 year long) ala event and reading a lot of Cutler. Even all nightshades. All the minerals/thiols gave me symptoms I came to recognize, of metals being dragged about…heavy brain and body, and cannot follow more than a sentence at a time. Because I still had mercury, I couldn’t stir all the metal up.

2 months out l and have these symptoms again. In April I added co-factors back in in prep for chelation. So many of these are thiols. So everything started working in April, and I happened to start methylation then as well. So I’ve got a lot of irons in the fire right now.

Yesterday AM I didn’t take the andeno, and I had a good warm, stable morning. In the afternoon I tried the b group (it was Friday, I could risk it). Within an hour my eyes were fogged over and I could not see! Niacin. Thiol. I’ve come to know this symptom really well, and knew about niacin. I have a FIR sauna and was recommended niacin to increase its effectiveness, but because of what I suspect is stirring up metal I’ve never done well with niacin. Now I can do it, if I choose to, since the metal is gone. But really interesting. (And I was cold and crabby from the adeno. I also dropped the 5-mthf today. All of it. 20mgs to 1 mg. bye bye. No body soreness more than usual.)

In the last five years I did reintroduce suphury foods. It has been a slow process, but now I can eat things like raw broccoli, even raw onions, raw cabbage, etc. It’s taken a while. Another mistake last fall was 5 glutathione IVs. Total disaster, but on the upside, I recognize this symptom extremely well now, and all thiols do it to me.

While I don’t know a lot about it, I know single thiols affect me greatly. I look forward to frequent-dose chelation with a double thiol. Proper chelation. I am very happy to have the oils on board. It is next-level stuff. It's the future. I am grateful to have found PR.

 

[Johnmac]

It's a wonder how we all keep going.

I wonder why the Adocbl is so hard to take for some of us? Biotin lack? Though I checked my OAT just now and I seem ok on biotin.

It gives me insomnia. Does that happen to anybody else?

Cheers @Johnmac Great tip. Will try that next time. I have the strips here somewhere from another time. Yes, please do pass on the protocol if it's not too much trouble to find.

You're right about Tchaikovsky! As far as I remember it's Clara from The Nutrcracker - I was on a Christmas holiday in Copenhagen years ago and went to see it in the theatre. Such a beautiful city. I do wish I could travel more.

For the Avatar I was in a hurry - just used the first name that came to mind & picked the first small pic I could find in my image file. I do wish I had put more thought into matching them up - I love the pic, but now I'm stuck with 'Athene'!!
Your avatar is striking - is it from your local culture?

Sorry for the delay @Athene* - I've been searching for that 4-year-old pH protocol. But it doesn't exist! - or at least it's very simple: just use bicarb soda in water to reduce urine pH; two half-teaspoons a day was common for me - but titrate according to what the test strips say. You're aiming for about 7. That's about it.

In HM chelation, some of us neutralise pH because you can't get much cadmium out without a neutral pH. But it works to stop aching kidneys too, for me anyway. That's possibly because cadmium otherwise banks up in the kidneys - tho that's an educated guess.

The ado/MeCbl mix gave me & my relative quite bad insomnia for the first month. I think Greg said it was the Ado part. Indeed he uses MeCbl to enhance sleep. We're both fine now - our bodies adjusted. But I was wide awake till 4 am numerous times at first. I should have rung @Kathevans for a chat. (-:

My avatar is a little Burmese monk I snapped in 2005, having his nap. I've lived mostly in SE Asia for 12 years.

I'll tell you why I assumed your avatar was the Lilac Fairy from Sleeping Beauty - apart from the story seeming such a good metaphor for CFS, if not the modern world. On the verge of being granted wisdom by the Lilac Fairy, the princess is instead put to sleep for 100 years by a bad fairy. So the Lilac Fairy puts the whole world to sleep (even the flies on the wall) so the princess will wake to familiar surroundings. The bad fairy is Atrapos - the great disruptor.

100 years later, the Lilac Fairy shows a prince through the maze to wake Sleeping Beauty. (He was unable to find the way by himself.) At the end of the ballet it's revealed that the Lilac Fairy is actually the classical goddess of wisdom and healing - Athena.

 

[Kathevans]

@Johnmac A scholar's knowledge of ballet. Excellent! I love the little Burmese monk, as well. My favorite Buddhist monk is Tich Nhat Hanh for his wonderful writing.

I'm still increasing the B2 and experiencing good results. That means the occasional miraculous night's sleep of 7-8 hours, unheard of a year ago. Of course, some of the nights are far less, but I'm hoping for an upward trend.

Overall, I still have miles to go before I sleep...metaphorically, if not actually! HM ahead I'm sure, though I did a lot of work with bentonite clay some years ago and I believe that helped. And getting to that Adeno B-12.

One thing at a time...

 

[garyfritz]

As to sleep, there is at least one study that shows that B12 lowers melatonin levels and there are some who take a little extra in the form of 5htp or some other. @sregan posted this about it: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...serotonin-deficiency-caused-by-dq-supps.1871/

?? I don't see the B12/melatonin relationship in sreagan's post, but I understood B12 was required for proper melatonin operation. I know I can't sleep if I'm short on B12. If I wake in the night, especially if I feel a bit revved up, B12 is the solution for me. I take one quarter of a Country Life 5000mg, and the next thing I know it's morning.

But of course my B12 metabolism seems to be anything but typical…

 

[Kathevans]

I don't see the B12/melatonin relationship in sreagan's post,

Yes, it's indirect. I guess I extrapolated. Serotonin is what's needed to ultimately yield melatonin. But no doubt what you say about the connection between B12 and melatonin's proper operation may be so. There have been times I've taken it at night and it has settled me down. B2 is actually more likely to give my brain some over-activity--if I take it in the middle of the night.

 

[Athene*]

Sorry for the delay @Athene* - I've been searching for that 4-year-old pH protocol. But it doesn't exist! - or at least it's very simple: just use bicarb soda in water to reduce urine pH; two half-teaspoons a day was common for me - but titrate according to what the test strips say. You're aiming for about 7. That's about it.

In HM chelation, some of us neutralise pH because you can't get much cadmium out without a neutral pH. But it works to stop aching kidneys too, for me anyway. That's possibly because cadmium otherwise banks up in the kidneys - tho that's an educated guess.

The ado/MeCbl mix gave me & my relative quite bad insomnia for the first month. I think Greg said it was the Ado part. Indeed he uses MeCbl to enhance sleep. We're both fine now - our bodies adjusted. But I was wide awake till 4 am numerous times at first. I should have rung @Kathevans for a chat. (-:

My avatar is a little Burmese monk I snapped in 2005, having his nap. I've lived mostly in SE Asia for 12 years.

I'll tell you why I assumed your avatar was the Lilac Fairy from Sleeping Beauty - apart from the story seeming such a good metaphor for CFS, if not the modern world. On the verge of being granted wisdom by the Lilac Fairy, the princess is instead put to sleep for 100 years by a bad fairy. So the Lilac Fairy puts the whole world to sleep (even the flies on the wall) so the princess will wake to familiar surroundings. The bad fairy is Atrapos - the great disruptor.

100 years later, the Lilac Fairy shows a prince through the maze to wake Sleeping Beauty. (He was unable to find the way by himself.) At the end of the ballet it's revealed that the Lilac Fairy is actually the classical goddess of wisdom and healing - Athena.

Wow - what a lovely story about the Lilac Fairy. Yes, wonderful metaphor, indeed. Thanks @Johnmac! So, maybe my unconscious self (tapping into the collective unconscious!) knew it all along and that's why I chose 'Athene' with a (sort of) lilac fairy I like the name now! How strange...I did know a version of Sleeping Beauty, as most of us do, but I'd never (consciously!) heard of the Lilac Fairy.

That's no problem about the protocol - it's clear from what you've said about the bicarb. Cheers.

Very helpful to know about the month-long Ado adjustment period re insomnia. I will press on now.

Love the Burmese monk!

 

[Athene*]

Yes, I'm headed downward, as well. It's been yet another tough transition, after being on it for 5 years at that dose, the body is working very hard right now. I can't expect it be smooth. It has been fraught with crashes, but I feel the change. It's strange to need less, it's fantastic and difficult and scary, but it's all going in the right direction and it's very heartening.



Well, I'm still taking a lot of pills, so that's about all I can offer. But I take melatonin (<1mg) with 4 l-tryptophan (500). This works great for me. I take them every night. I had severe insomnia all my life, hypothyroid at a young age. If I awaken and can't get back to sleep a country time mb12 helps. I also may try the b2...

A note on thiols:

I stopped all mineral supps in October ’15, after the (2 year long) ala event and reading a lot of Cutler. Even all nightshades. All the minerals/thiols gave me symptoms I came to recognize, of metals being dragged about…heavy brain and body, and cannot follow more than a sentence at a time. Because I still had mercury, I couldn’t stir all the metal up.

2 months out l and have these symptoms again. In April I added co-factors back in in prep for chelation. So many of these are thiols. So everything started working in April, and I happened to start methylation then as well. So I’ve got a lot of irons in the fire right now.

Yesterday AM I didn’t take the andeno, and I had a good warm, stable morning. In the afternoon I tried the b group (it was Friday, I could risk it). Within an hour my eyes were fogged over and I could not see! Niacin. Thiol. I’ve come to know this symptom really well, and knew about niacin. I have a FIR sauna and was recommended niacin to increase its effectiveness, but because of what I suspect is stirring up metal I’ve never done well with niacin. Now I can do it, if I choose to, since the metal is gone. But really interesting. (And I was cold and crabby from the adeno. I also dropped the 5-mthf today. All of it. 20mgs to 1 mg. bye bye. No body soreness more than usual.)

In the last five years I did reintroduce suphury foods. It has been a slow process, but now I can eat things like raw broccoli, even raw onions, raw cabbage, etc. It’s taken a while. Another mistake last fall was 5 glutathione IVs. Total disaster, but on the upside, I recognize this symptom extremely well now, and all thiols do it to me.

While I don’t know a lot about it, I know single thiols affect me greatly. I look forward to frequent-dose chelation with a double thiol. Proper chelation. I am very happy to have the oils on board. It is next-level stuff. It's the future. I am grateful to have found PR.

Best of luck with getting off the hydrocortisone. It would be great for you. I see it as a really positive development and am so happy not to have to take it now.
I'm going to press on with the Aoccbl now after what @Johnmac wrote about the month-long insomnia (adjustment period).
I have never addressed any heavy metal issues, like you have, but I've never had much exposure to metal (as far as I know). I do know that with my glutathione not being optimal yet, I would have poor detox ability, so that wouldn't be good for me right now.
I'm still trying to find the best thyroid treatment to go with b12, b2, iodine, selenium. I will update on that soon.
Wow, you've managed to drop 5MTHF! I haven't managed that yet, though I have lowered it considerably. I need to get thyroid right first. Every time I drop any more of my 5MTHF I become hypothyroid/make less FAD - have very low energy and feel cold.
Good to see you're making progress!

 

[Johnmac]

Best of luck with getting off the hydrocortisone. It would be great for you. I see it as a really positive development and am so happy not to have to take it now.
I'm going to press on with the Aoccbl now after what @Johnmac wrote about the month-long insomnia (adjustment period).
I have never addressed any heavy metal issues, like you have, but I've never had much exposure to metal (as far as I know). I do know that with my glutathione not being optimal yet, I would have poor detox ability, so that wouldn't be good for me right now.
I'm still trying to find the best thyroid treatment to go with b12, b2, iodine, selenium. I will update on that soon.
Wow, you've managed to drop 5MTHF! I haven't managed that yet, though I have lowered it considerably. I need to get thyroid right first. Every time I drop any more of my 5MTHF I become hypothyroid/make less FAD - have very low energy and feel cold.
Good to see you're making progress!

When chelating, I had the worst reactions to thiol foods of anyone in the Frequent Dose Chelation Yahoo group. I mentioned this to Greg at B12Oils recently, & he said that the reaction was likely from sulphites: the enzyme that deals with them is sulphite oxidase, and it requires heme (so also iron and B2/iodine/selenium) and molybdenum.

(You need molybdenum for conversion of FMN to FAD. Most people are not deficient, but obviously some will be.)

Yes, in both my relative & self, the insomnia went on for a month or so (6 weeks tops), was almost certainly from the AdoCbl (the methyl is actually sedative) - then abruptly vanished. It was a doosie while it lasted though.

 

[Athene*]

@Johnmac That's so good to know about the Ado. I really struggle with it and I know others here find it difficult to take. Did it give you any low cortisol symptoms or feel like it was stressing your adrenals, before you eventually got used to it? I'm trying to work out if it's stressing the adrenals or maybe helping the thyroid so I need to lower thyroid dose. Difficult to make a call on it!

 

[dogged_days]

@Johnmac and @Athene*, our “schedules” seem very similar. I crashed Sat & Sun pretty badly, but I’m still getting used to low/no HC. Started the adeno yesterday and was able to do things. It was remarkable. You know that feeling of I just can’t do it, nope, won’t? It lifted and things came easily. I hadn’t had that feeling in years.

This is just 3 weeks into the mb12 oil, 2 days with the adeno (1 squirt), about a week at higher at B2 amounts (1-200+), a few days @ two 5-mthf per day, and low to no hc. I went back up on iodine, (at about 9.4 mgs). I think everything slowed down at the lower dose. Now, I’ll prepare for the insomnia and (increasing) hypothyroid symptoms. Temps have been a struggle this whole time. Hoping chelation helps. Can’t get above 96.3 and still dropping into the 95s. Dropping the 5-mthf from 20mg to 2 went fine. I do have some soreness, but it’s not significant.

Yes, Athene, commenting on what you said a few conversations up, I am somewhat aggressive at this point. The dental took longer than I anticipated. I was ready to chelate 3 years ago. I thought I would be like one of those people that gets them removed in one day, ha. No, no, no. I also thought the methylation would be just a side bar. Big surprise. This is the best effect I’ve had in 5 years. But I am heading into chelation so abiding cutler will be the name of the game. I won’t play around with that. I am currently taking selenium and molybdenum, as well, thank you for the tip Johnmac. Athene, I definitely feel the adeno on the adrenals. I could not stay long in the FIR sauna. This is always a sign for me. I will let you know how it goes this week.