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High dose folate, B2 and elevation of ammonia and uric acid (for dummies)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gondwanaland, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I will not elaborate, I think this info speaks for itself...

    Some individuals are more susceptible than others, but the basic physiology is the same for everyone.

    Open for discussion!

    Source: http://www.health-science-spirit.com/HF5-2.html (modified)
    CellularEnergyMetabolism2.jpg
    (Previously posted here )

    Don't miss the excellent chart "Reference ranges for blood tests, comparing blood content of ammonia (shown in yellow near middle) with other constituents" in the link above

    How salicylates can worsen high ammonia (they also need to be neutralized with bicarbonate):

    Looking further into it:

     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
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  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    so based on this information it is suggested to keep b 9 and b 2 at lower or balanced levels?
     
  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I don't make any suggestion in that area since I am a dummy on that :p but transdermal bicarb (plus oral magnesium oxide) reversed all my issues with salicylate intolerance, high acid uric and ammonia build up.
     
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  4. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Did you find that Mg raised body temp? Not just night sweats, but overall more warm?
     
  5. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Thanks for the tips on the magnesium again, I don't really know if I have ammonia or salicylate issues but good stuff to know.
     
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  6. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This is how I gauged for bicarb need:
    dissolve 1/8 tsp of sodium bicarb in one glass of water and make mouth swishes. You will know if you need more.
    I actually never drank it, but it was a great relief for constant dry mouth and tongue.

    Next step is to do a foot bath (alternatively you can also soak your hands).

    Shower scrub.

    Bicarb bath. Before a full immersion I recommend to test your urine pH. I jumped in the bathtub when mine was 4.5 in the evening.

    I must thank @ahmo who taught me all this months ago.
     
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  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I am sure I posted a list of symptoms relieved by magnesium oxide. Magnesium fixed temperature, intolerances, sleep, breathlessness, depression etc. After the tipping point it caused nightsweats to return.
     
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  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    WARNING:
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
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  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thanks, @ahmo ! Understanding the Urea Cycle is crucial for me.

    With my previous post with the research published in the "Autoimmunity" journal I have reached a new understanding of my pain. Also, now I know WHY potassium can help. Unfortunately potassium on its own either upsets my stomach (any form), gives me severe brain fog / electrolyte imbalances (KCl), or lowers my BP too much (K bicarb). I find that if I take a fraction of an electrolyte capsule it helps a little :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
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  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Apparently the transdermal bicarbonate is loosing its effectiveness with me to counteract uric acid and the probable causes could be related to the warnings I posted above.

    I have been taking a B complex in the morning which turns me into a zombie for a few hors (pain + anesthesia at the same time) and then it starts to subside around noon and I get well after taking my multimin (Se + Zn + Cu + Mn + Boron). Tomorrow I will try the Multimin in the morning and perhaps skip the Bcompl.

    Next I am looking into antagonizing / reducing Molybdenum rich foods due to its role in xanthine oxidase and uric acid formation. AND stay away from prebiotics.

    Uric acid / gout sufferers, biochem literates out there please help!

    @Peyt @adreno @Sidereal @alex3619 @Vegas @pone @Sherlock @drob31 @Mya Symons
     
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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  14. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I can understand not wanting to take molybdenum supplements in this position, but I am not sure why avoiding molybdenum rich foods is desirable. Molybdenum deficiency can result in severe neurological symptoms, sometimes fatal, and problems with sulphur containing foods. It may also lead to decreased mitochondrial function. Indeed molybdenum became popular in the late 90s in some circles for treating CFS.

    Do you have active gout?

    It was unclear from the first post why salicylates are a problem in this context (though there are plenty of other reasons) nor why bicarbonate helps. A healthy gut starts alkaline in the mouth, goes acidic in the stomach, and then becomes alkaline again in the small intestine. Manipulating intestinal pH with bicarbonate is not a good idea. Bicarbonate to correct acidity in the blood may be of use though, particularly during active periods, and a growing number of patients find it is helpful with PEM. It is not clear to me its useful while resting.

    Gout was one of my early (wrong) diagnoses due to high serum uric acid. I did not have gout. My pains were more muscular than typical gouty joint pains.

    Uric acid is an antioxidant. It is as likely to be helping as hindering unless there are other reasons. If you have gout crystals causing inflammation then that is a good reason.

    I have not investigated ammonia issues in depth, so I cannot currently advise on this.
     
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  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @alex3619 Thanks for your input. I know this thread lacks coherence, sorry. I just keep losing my thread of thought lately.

    I am right in the midlle of a pain crisis after having taken 250mcg of vitamin K2-MK4 on Jan 1st. I don't know how it raises uric acid. Counter-intuitively, it felt like taking heparin (still have to research about heparin and uric acid). I have joint and bone (?) pain.

    I do not have gout, but my serum uric acid levels have always been top of or a little above range (and this runs in my father's family).

    I forgot to tag @aaron_c to this thread!
     
  16. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland, don't be concerned about lacking coherence. There are times I cannot even compose a single sentence. With ME we have to live with this every day. Fortunately threads give us an opportunity to expand and extend our discussion.

    I am not sure highish uric acid is an issue. As I said earlier I cannot comment on ammonia though.
     
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  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    At this point I am not sure anymore it I am hurting still due to the K2 or due to something else I am taking or eating.

    I found the sodium (bicarb) conexion intriguing. So today no bicarb scrub for me. Let's see how I wake up tomorrow.
     
  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    TMI alert
    I started a trial with cherry extract ( @Sherlock ) and I fellt it pushing uric acid crystals out of the body (increased urination and salivation), bad taste under the tongue (detox?), but stopped after taking it only 2x due to a side effect - hemorrhoid felt like there was glass inside the swollen vein. :oops: (TMI I know) Back in 2010 I had to extract blood clots from the hemorrhoids 2x (in the year before my DVT).

    I took the cherry extract at bed time and the following morning felt like my joint and back pains were still there, but a bit numb (which was good, or at least "better than bad").

    I take Gamma E + fishoil to help with blood flow. My questions are:
    - what is the cherry extract doing?
    - what experience do you guys have with this and other supps for lowering uric acid?

    The best one I took so far was mB12, but I can't take it while my T3 is still low. (trying to convince my dr. to prescribe me higher T3)
     
  19. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Wow, that sucks. I have no idea what's going on there. I had a bad taste in mouth when I was taking cherry extract now that I think about it. I tried various supplements for gout and they all caused some weird side effect. I am taking allopurinol now to try and deal with a very troublesome crystal in my right index finger that just won't go away.
     
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  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Have you tried hand soaks in bicarb or magnesium oxide?

    DH took Tart Cherry Extract for 4 evenings in a row and is feeling increased joint pain. These supps surely mobilize uric acid. Apparently the trouble begins when they are deposited in undesireable places :confused:
     

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