Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

Kathevans

Kathevans

Senior Member
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689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I love the oils, and use them still. But at this point I'm only using the Methyl B12. I've gone through a very rough patch where there have been and still are some challenges with regard to refeeding syndrome. After using the combination Adenosyl/ Mehhyl Oil for about 7 months. (touched on 3, but felt good on two squirts per day...until I didn't), I got into that 'insatiable potassium and folate need' place. On the refeeding thread Fred talks about how in some or some time the use of Adenosyl can block the absorption of Methyl B12. I mentioned this to Greg who dismisses it by saying different organs predominate or have an affinity for one kind of B12 or the other.

In any case, my symptoms became intolerable...insomnia, IBS, heart palpitations..and I have shifted to the Methyl only oil. Of course, I'm addressing lowereing the lower Bs (though I admit to resistance to lowering B2!) pulling back on some other supps that may be driving the cycles for me--possibly Liposomal C, Betaine HCL, and the issue of reducing vegetable folate (.but oh, I love my veggies!).

I just want to get back into some semblance of control. And, of course, remember I, too may be hosting a toxic load of mercury @garyfritz !

Oh, I use BodyBio mineral drops...Iodine, Selenium, manganese, copper, but my Molybdenum, after titrating up last summer, is now in pill form,as is my low dose 22mg zinc.
 
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arewenearlythereyet

Senior Member
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1,478
I use the hydroxy/methyl (2 squirts per day) and take selenium separately (100mcg) and get iodine and molybdenum from my multi vitamin and mineral ( so small amounts). I also take methyl/adenosyl one squirt once per week which is a relatively new change so don't know how this differs to my sublingual version yet.
 
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arewenearlythereyet

Senior Member
Messages
1,478
gettinbetter said:
How are you doing on that?
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Yes ok....I've been doing the oils since November last year but started on sublinguals before that (April). It was rocky at first with all,sorts of symptoms that lasted around 8 weeks. I'm now so much better cognitively with much less brain fog. It's still up and down, but less extreme than on the sublinguals. I possibly need to up my folate (currently on 3x400mcg) a bit but my b12 seems stable and I don't think I've had any refeeding or drops in other things apart from magnesium and potassium. Potassium has stabilised judging by my drop in heart palpitations but magnesium continues to vary quite a bit. I've been slowly upping this but I'm not there yet.
 
Athene*

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Kathevans said:
I love the oils, and use them still. But at this point I'm only using the Methyl B12. I've gone through a very rough patch where there have been and still are some challenges with regard to refeeding syndrome. After using the combination Adenosyl/ Mehhyl Oil for about 7 months. (touched on 3, but felt good on two squirts per day...until I didn't), I got into that 'insatiable potassium and folate need' place. On the refeeding thread Fred talks about how in some or some time the use of Adenosyl can block the absorption of Methyl B12. I mentioned this to Greg who dismisses it by saying different organs predominate or have an affinity for one kind of B12 or the other.

In any case, my symptoms became intolerable...insomnia, IBS, heart palpitations..and I have shifted to the Methyl only oil. Of course, I'm addressing lowereing the lower Bs (though I admit to resistance to lowering B2!) pulling back on some other supps that may be driving the cycles for me--possibly Liposomal C, Betaine HCL, and the issue of reducing vegetable folate (.but oh, I love my veggies!).

I just want to get back into some semblance of control. And, of course, remember I, too may be hosting a toxic load of mercury @garyfritz !

Oh, I use BodyBio mineral drops...Iodine, Selenium, manganese, copper, but my Molybdenum, after titrating up last summer, is now in pill form,as is my low dose 22mg zinc.
Click to expand...
Just saw this while checking on the site re the dosage-timing of Adenosyl B12 and just to say re Greg dismissing the possibility of Adenosyl blocking the absorption of Methyl B12 - he advised me to stop the combined oil when I had a lot of fatigue from adding in the Ado part (was only on Meb12 oil up to then). He said just use Meb12 for the time being (it was a while ago now), that the Ado could be preventing my absorption of the methyl b12.

I'm not sure what @Freddd advises these days - he said at one point that the sublingual Ado can 'ride along' with injected Meb12. I think, but I'm not sure, that he means it's ok to have sublingual Ado along with injected B12 (i.e. at the same time) but not both sublingually (unless Ado six hours or so after meB12). I would love some clarification on this if anybody knows exactly what timing is best for Ado and Methyl B12, just in case one blocks the other...

P.S. I have found the LCF has really helped with the Ado effectiveness (more muscle strength)
 
C

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
Athene* said:
Just saw this while checking on the site re the dosage-timing of Adenosyl B12 and just to say re Greg dismissing the possibility of Adenosyl blocking the absorption of Methyl B12 - he advised me to stop the combined oil when I had a lot of fatigue from adding in the Ado part (was only on Meb12 oil up to then). He said just use Meb12 for the time being (it was a while ago now), that the Ado could be preventing my absorption of the methyl b12.

I'm not sure what @Freddd advises these days - he said at one point that the sublingual Ado can 'ride along' with injected Meb12. I think, but I'm not sure, that he means it's ok to have sublingual Ado along with injected B12 (i.e. at the same time) but not both sublingually (unless Ado six hours or so after meB12). I would love some clarification on this if anybody knows exactly what timing is best for Ado and Methyl B12, just in case one blocks the other...

P.S. I have found the LCF has really helped with the Ado effectiveness (more muscle strength)
Click to expand...

AdenosylB12 can give some people extreme fatigue and nausea when they start on it. @winston was one and my son was another - I think @ahmo or @Sushi might also have had the same experience, but I'm not sure. No one has ever told me why this happens. It just means to start low and increase very slowly.
 
Athene*

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
CCC said:
AdenosylB12 can give some people extreme fatigue and nausea when they start on it. @winston was one and my son was another - I think @ahmo or @Sushi might also have had the same experience, but I'm not sure. No one has ever told me why this happens. It just means to start low and increase very slowly.
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Yes, this happened to me when I started over a year ago. I'm fine with it now, but it took a while. The cause for me was that the Ado B12 sucked up huge amounts of potassium and folate because it was repairing a lot and it used up even more potassium and folate when I added LCF. I had to increase both gradually, much more gradually than I did with MeB12 and Methylfolate which I increased quite quickly as per @Freddd did (I was able to tolerate the initial 'side effects'/painful healing, which lasted several months).

I wanted to increase Ado more quickly as @Freddd did to fill the stores and get over the side effects/healing effects, but it just didn't stop giving severe low potassium and folate effects even when I tried to increase by big doses quickly so I had to back off. I'm now on Ado 8.6mg x 4 times weekly and LCF 500mg daily (855 mg of Doctor's Best) and doing well, but still need a lot of potassium and folate.
 
C

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
Athene* said:
Yes, this happened to me when I started over a year ago. I'm fine with it now, but it took a while. The cause for me was that the Ado B12 sucked up huge amounts of potassium and folate because it was repairing a lot and it used up even more potassium and folate when I added LCF. I had to increase both gradually, much more gradually than I did with MeB12 and Methylfolate which I increased quite quickly as per @Freddd did (I was able to tolerate the initial 'side effects'/painful healing, which lasted several months).

I wanted to increase Ado more quickly as @Freddd did to fill the stores and get over the side effects/healing effects, but it just didn't stop giving severe low potassium and folate effects even when I tried to increase by big doses quickly so I had to back off. I'm now on Ado 8.6mg x 4 times weekly and LCF 500mg daily (855 mg of Doctor's Best) and doing well, but still need a lot of potassium and folate.
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We haven't even been able to do the LCF yet. The fatigue was overwhelming.

Maybe it's time to give it another go.
 
C

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
Athene* said:
Just saw this while checking on the site re the dosage-timing of Adenosyl B12 and just to say re Greg dismissing the possibility of Adenosyl blocking the absorption of Methyl B12 - he advised me to stop the combined oil when I had a lot of fatigue from adding in the Ado part (was only on Meb12 oil up to then). He said just use Meb12 for the time being (it was a while ago now), that the Ado could be preventing my absorption of the methyl b12.

I'm not sure what @Freddd advises these days - he said at one point that the sublingual Ado can 'ride along' with injected Meb12. I think, but I'm not sure, that he means it's ok to have sublingual Ado along with injected B12 (i.e. at the same time) but not both sublingually (unless Ado six hours or so after meB12). I would love some clarification on this if anybody knows exactly what timing is best for Ado and Methyl B12, just in case one blocks the other...

P.S. I have found the LCF has really helped with the Ado effectiveness (more muscle strength)
Click to expand...
I was reading back up the post to notice this.

I think Freddd said his daughter needed AdoB12 daily, but he went better with weekly and away from mB12.

I guess we're all different.
 
E

Eastman

Senior Member
Messages
536
CCC said:
AdenosylB12 can give some people extreme fatigue and nausea when they start on it. @winston was one and my son was another - I think @ahmo or @Sushi might also have had the same experience, but I'm not sure. No one has ever told me why this happens. It just means to start low and increase very slowly.
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Fatigue and nausea may be signs of B1 deficiency/beriberi. Have you seen this post?
alicec said:
Lonsdale's work is fascinating. It is something I've only caught up with recently, prompted by yours and other's posts.

B12 uptake/processing is very complex and much about it is unknown, however it is certainly an energy dependent process. The critical role of B1 in energy pathways along with Lonsdale's findings of widespread B1 deficiency certainly suggests there could be a link to B12 related problems.

From a slightly different angle, I can confirm that B12/folate and B1 seem to be intimately connected. Long term B12/folate supplementation appears to have greatly increased my need for B1. I have managed to profoundly deplete B1, despite years of supplementation at what I thought was a more than adequate dose.

I intend to post on this in more detail on the Refeeding Syndrome thread but am still working out some details.
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See also here, here, here and here
 
Athene*

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
CCC said:
I was reading back up the post to notice this.

I think Freddd said his daughter needed AdoB12 daily, but he went better with weekly and away from mB12.

I guess we're all different.
Click to expand...
Yes, I guess we'll have to experiment with the Ado level & timing of dose. I did find that too much knocked me out completely with huge (and fast) potassium demand. In one of @Freddd 's latest posts the other day it seems he's now on daily Ado (like you mention re his daughter) though he used to be on weekly, like you say. He seems to be on extra folate for now also,
see end of page 4, post #80 on this thread:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b-complex-without-folic-acid.19352/page-4

"I haven't changed the B12 dose particularly. I have finally reached a reasonably stable place with 45 mg of l0-methylfolate a day, phosphatidylcholine, 10mg sublingual of AdoCbl daily, 1200 mg SAM-e, and TMG. This helps the ATP methylation branch. The other methylation branch is from MeCbl- mfolate branch reprocessing HCY to methionine. It's reducing inflammation..)"

Maybe his new doses are to do with his recently uncovered copper deficiency i.e. doing more healing since he added copper? Just guessing.

I read somewhere else (Freddd said it somewhere) that we need to be on 3 to 10 times more B12 than Ado. I found the combined Methyl/Ado dose was too much for me. I needed big dose B12 injections with much smaller amounts of Ado. You might be different. It's all quite difficult and time consuming to work out, but worth it in the end, to me anyhow, when I can walk out the front door instead of being stuck to the bed or couch.
 
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Kathevans

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I am totally fiddling with whether I need to take the Ado/Methyl Oil daily, am still thinking that daily may be too much, though every other day may be fine. I have also begun to get those itchy bumps that @garyfritz talks about from using the transdermal over and over, though I try to vary the spots I use it on! I will say, @Athene* that I read your comments above with interest. The longer I use the combo oil, the more I seem to notice a sort of methyl B-12 block, possibly identifiable by more IBS than usual, and I have begun to wonder if I shouldn't do some research about finding the injections locally.

I have also added in quite a bit of B1, ramped up to about 200mg of Benfotiamine, which absolutely was part of a refeeding frenzy I got into and that caused excruciating insomnia and heart palpitations, not to mention standard beriberi symptoms of weak lower legs and unsteadiness on my feet, especially noticable when I got up at night. I wonder how long I ought to stay on the high dose and am a bit fearful that staying too high for too long will push other things out of wack. As it is, the insomnia lessened, but now is making a comeback for some other reason. I'm back to sleeping an hour and waking up with a headache, trying to figure out what my body needs most and getting by on about 4 hours of sleep a night.

I am experimenting with the L-Carnitine as muscle loss is a big one for me--my poor arms. Whenever I carry in the groceries I suffer for it. I've tried 1/4 tablet of of the Doctor's Best. But this is still the very early days.

I keep on with the experimentation and with my Excell Chart, but really, I am finding this all a little bit head-spinning...
 
Athene*

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
'Head spinning' for sure! It will be interesting to see if you find the potassium loss with the LCF, or not...

I don't know anything about B1 (except it didn't work for me except at low dose in B Complex) - I follow @Freddd on that one and find that keeping it low works for me.

I don't take excessive B2 either. I do however need more B2 than Fredd took (he always took 10mg only B2, in the B Complex he uses).

I think he may possibly have revised that advice on B2 (i.e. some people may need up to 40mg, or more?) and that his copper deficiency may have had something to do with his not being able to take too much B2 (makes copper deficiency worse). It was just a passing comment he made somewhere that stuck in my head. I'm afraid I don't have the link. I do best on one sublingual FMN (18mg) daily as well as the 10mg ordinary riboflavin in my B Complex.

Are you still taking extra B2?
 
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