Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Kathevans]

Are you still taking extra B2?

Yes. I get 20mgB2 in my B-MInus (I began taking a whole tab each day after holding it at a half for a long time) and take an additional 25 daily. I have experimented with extra quarters of a tablet of the Source Naturals B2 sublinguals, but I'm not sure I notice anything... In all around 50 mg.

At this point...before using the LCF regularly, my potassium is holding at 2100mg/ day. The B1 seemed to lower the need a bit...

 

[garyfritz]

I have also begun to get those itchy bumps that @garyfritz talks about from using the transdermal over and over, though I try to vary the spots I use it on!

FWIW I've been experimenting with that. I've been applying my oil to the exact same location every day for several months – and no bumps, no irritation of any kind.

 

[Kathevans]

FWIW I've been experimenting with that. I've been applying my oil to the exact same location every day for several months – and no bumps, no irritation of any kind.

Maybe it's detox of some other sort... Of course, I'm very slowly working on the teeth. Although, I did just complete what is call the Mercury Tri-Test (hair/blood/urine) by Quicksilver Scientific, and it came back as not a problem... I did mention the Doctor's Data Test, which my alternadoc said he also likes.

Who knows... It may be that all my pain issues arise from not enough B12, as well as--over the years--insufficient and the wrong kind of Folic acid.

 

[garyfritz]

Yes, I suspect the bumps are detox or some kind of similar process, not just simple skin irritation.

Careful with Quicksilver. They have a very bad reputation in the ACC group.

 

[Athene*]

Yes. I get 20mgB2 in my B-MInus (I began taking a whole tab each day after holding it at a half for a long time) and take an additional 25 daily. I have experimented with extra quarters of a tablet of the Source Naturals B2 sublinguals, but I'm not sure I notice anything... In all around 50 mg.

At this point...before using the LCF regularly, my potassium is holding at 2100mg/ day. The B1 seemed to lower the need a bit...

Interesting how the B1 & B2 is going for you. For me it's the opposite and if I increase either too much I really suffer from potassium (and folate) loss. Even more with the B1. That's not a bad potassium dose to be on. I've had to increase to 3.6g to 4g since adding in Ado & LCF.

 

[Kathevans]

Quicksilver. They have a very bad reputation in the ACC group.

Oh dear. But don't the folks at ACC find many analysis other than the Doctor's Data lacking? Well, I'm moving forward with dental work anyway...but it's slow.

 

[Kathevans]

Interesting how the B1 & B2 is going for you. For me it's the opposite and if I increase either too much I really suffer from potassium (and folate) loss. Even more with the B1.

I wonder about this. I'm hovering at about 15-20mg of folate/day, but the IBS, which seemingly resolved with the initial B1 treatment, now has gotten worse again. Last night I tried an extra squirt (that made 4 yesterday) and several sublinguals of Methyl B-12, and initially thought they helped, but no. Unrelenting IBS and even occasional palpitations. Very frustrating.

I seem to be fine through much of the day--but the IBS symptoms come on around dinner time and can last until I go to bed--or into the night.

The L-Carnitine, even at 1/4 of a tablet, or roughly 200mg, gives me insomnia. I've tried it 5 times now and it's the same every time...Maybe I should begin at a lower dose... I don't feel much of anything else with it--maybe a slight energy boost initially, but that fades within an hour.

 

[Athene*]

I wonder about this. I'm hovering at about 15-20mg of folate/day, but the IBS, which seemingly resolved with the initial B1 treatment, now has gotten worse again. Last night I tried an extra squirt (that made 4 yesterday) and several sublinguals of Methyl B-12, and initially thought they helped, but no. Unrelenting IBS and even occasional palpitations. Very frustrating.

I seem to be fine through much of the day--but the IBS symptoms come on around dinner time and can last until I go to bed--or into the night.

The L-Carnitine, even at 1/4 of a tablet, or roughly 200mg, gives me insomnia. I've tried it 5 times now and it's the same every time...Maybe I should begin at a lower dose... I don't feel much of anything else with it--maybe a slight energy boost initially, but that fades within an hour.

Yes, the LCF has messed up my sleep cycle (and the Ado before that and the Meb12 before that!). I do sleep soundly and unbroken (7 hours, much better sleep quality than before these supplements) but circadian rhythm is all over the place.

About the IBS - it's the first symptom I get when I've overdone things and the first noticeable thing to settle down as I recover. It's usually helped by rest (lots) and yes, it's very frustrating. It goes with PEM for me.

 

[Kathevans]

@Athene* I've been thinking about your comment--and certainly Fred's long before!--that the B1 can really cause Folate loss, or ever higher need, and I'm going to consider that this may be what is at the root of the excruciating IBS, and at least partly for the increasing insomnia. I've also been having what I consider to be my insufficient Folate headaches all week now- in the middle of the night, and today, even as I woke, and my hand pain, always an indicator, has gotten worse.

It's possible that it's taken a while for the Thiamin to become a problem, that while it was satiating a need, it was less problematic. In any case, I've taken higher doses for a while now. I'm going to try dropping to 50mg (as a start) and see if the IBS and headache lessen. And hold off on the L-Carnitine till I get these two balanced once again....

It was such a relief to have the heart issues disappear that I kept going with the thiamine, but it's clear that something is out of wack.

Thanks, Athene, for reminding me of this possibility! It's entirely possible that this is what's driving things. O' to find that balance!

I wonder if melatonin would help your circadian rhythms...? Though knowing you, no doubt you've tried that!

 

[Eastman]

... B1 can really cause Folate loss, or ever higher need...

To be exact, Freddd said B1 increased folate usage, which is consistent with Derrick Lonsdale's finding that it lowers blood folate levels, which may be interpreted as increased folate uptake.

The obvious concern is that if you drop the B1, the heart problem comes back. But at least now you know how to deal with that.

 

[garyfritz]

Oh dear. But don't the folks at ACC find many analysis other than the Doctor's Data lacking? Well, I'm moving forward with dental work anyway...but it's slow.

I'm not sure about their tests. But people have had bad results with their chelation and treatment regimens.

 

[Kathevans]

But people have had bad results with their chelation and treatment regimens.

Good to know--although I'm already a follower of the ACC website and have no intention of doing any chelation other than theirs...! You're ahead of me Gary with the tooth fix. Keep us posted on how you're doing. I'm definitely interested...!

To be exact, Freddd said B1 increased folate usage, which is consistent with Derrick Lonsdale's finding that it lowers blood folate levels, which may be interpreted as increased folate uptake.

Thank you, Eastman, for this link. You're an invaluable source of info, at least about B1! We'll see how I go from here. If I think of this as Fred does, as 'refinement' of dose levels, it feels less depressing! But Fred's physical response was so rapid that he noticed right away. I took the higher dose B1 for about a month--and possibly because some IBS has been with me since titrating up on these methyl donors, an increase in the symptom was not initially noticed as anything out of the ordinary.

I've never had a moment when I seemed to have enough folate and all folate deficiency symptoms disappeared. This means that any number of supplements could continue to contribute to this problem...

 

[Athene*]

@Athene* I've been thinking about your comment--and certainly Fred's long before!--that the B1 can really cause Folate loss, or ever higher need, and I'm going to consider that this may be what is at the root of the excruciating IBS, and at least partly for the increasing insomnia. I've also been having what I consider to be my insufficient Folate headaches all week now- in the middle of the night, and today, even as I woke, and my hand pain, always an indicator, has gotten worse.

It's possible that it's taken a while for the Thiamin to become a problem, that while it was satiating a need, it was less problematic. In any case, I've taken higher doses for a while now. I'm going to try dropping to 50mg (as a start) and see if the IBS and headache lessen. And hold off on the L-Carnitine till I get these two balanced once again....

It was such a relief to have the heart issues disappear that I kept going with the thiamine, but it's clear that something is out of wack.

Thanks, Athene, for reminding me of this possibility! It's entirely possible that this is what's driving things. O' to find that balance!

I wonder if melatonin would help your circadian rhythms...? Though knowing you, no doubt you've tried that!

I was beginning to have 'heart issues' too over the past few weeks - annoying (and worrying) palpitations every so often, and particularly when falling asleep. I was getting some tetany symptoms (cramping up of toes & feet, really sore!) too which calcium made even worse and some twitching as well and whole body jerks so it finally dawned on me that my new vitamin D intake (5K daily) had depleted magnesium. After two days of magnesium transdermal cream which I bought ages ago and never used, the palpitations etc ceased completely and haven't returned. I was going to ask if you've checked your magnesium levels recently. B12 uses it up too. But I seem to remember you did have magnesium checked. Possibly worth checking again since you've been using a lot of B12?

Yes, I tried the melatonin in desperation but it made me very achy all over next day and then I read somewhere that it can exacerbate auto-immune illness so I dropped it. Instead I think I'll have to change the way I take B12 and have it all done by lunchtime though I don't know how that will work since I seem to need it regularly.

Yes, your folate could be being depleted by the thiamine by the sound of it. I do think Freddd is correct about it and the B2, though I do need more than B2 than he does, not too much or the folate issue crops up. I crashed on thiamine (tried allithiamine for a week) and the achiness and weakness and general inflammation I had would suggest folate loss, like when I overdo things.

Otherwise progressing well, especially since adding fairly high dose magnesium - seemed to have been very much a limiting factor. Even feeling sleepy now at around 1am. Fingers crossed it might do the trick with circadian thing. These insufficiencies are so difficult to pinpoint at times...

 

[Kathevans]

@Athene* I often drift off during my Epsom Salts baths! So, yes I try to maintain my magnesium levels. But after learning that potassium and magnesium were antagonists, I've worked to separate them, which means that sometimes I miss a dose simply because I forget. I try to take at least 400mg/ day, though.

I dropped the Thiamin, though at this point to about 50-60mg/day, so the folate seems to be getting through. But the AdoB12 is still presenting problems. It really does seem to have an effect on sleep for me. I added in 1/2 tablet of the Seeking Health the other early morning-about 1500 mcg and fell instantly back to sleep and had 2 1/2 hours of deep sleep and woke feeling great. That said, I had mild IBS throughout the day, and when I tried creasing the dose, I felt miserable in my gut. Like you, I keep trying to think up schemes to take it at a certain time of day only, like at the early morning wake up point. But at any time it seems to effect how much folate I can absorb--certainly if I look through the lense of the IBS as a paradoxical folate deficiency symptom.

Flummoxed!

How is it I seemed to do so well on the combo oil for a while?? I keep thinking I ought t spray spray some on and just see how that goes...

 

[Athene*]

'Flummoxed' is a good word for it. It's very complicated, but when I think we're trying to re-feed after decades of B12 & folate starvation and multiple other insufficiencies as a result of new B12 & folate replacement then I suppose it's not surprising how tricky it is. It's not easy and dreadfully frustrating at times. Being able to get out and about for the first time in years makes it worth it for me, but crashing can be horribly disheartening so I try to pace myself a lot more now.

The magnesium has helped me hugely. Funnily enough when I took the magnesium orally it caused an awful potassium loss so there's obviously something in what you say about them being 'antagonists'. And yet we need magnesium to hold potassium in the cell so we really need to get it in somehow.

For me it seems that taking magnesium transdermally is overcoming the potassium absorption problem when taking both orally. You're right it's so calming and has helped with the gut a lot too - no problems at all now. I use the magnesium cream during the day as well as just before bed. The baths sound lovely but ours needs replacing. We moved in here months ago and still so much to be done! Shower will have to do for now.

The Ado seems to be easier to take since I added magnesium too. Magnesium was such a limiting factor for me, a lot has improved since upping it considerably.

I think I added Ado & LCF too soon last year. It seems that once all the basics and cofactors are in place it goes easier with Ado & LCF.

 

[garyfritz]

Athene*, you don't need a tub. Obviously that's the nicest, and it exposes the maximum skin surface, but many people get their magnesium with footbaths.

And I remember someone in the group was a big fan of magnesium enemas......

 

[Kathevans]

@Athene* Well, I have tried to hold back to see if I could accrue more than two days in a row of evidence, but it is quickly gathering...

I went with my impulse to just spray on a heap of the combo Adenosyl/Methyl oil. Day one: 1 spray, 8 hours of broken sleep, more than I've had in, well, I don't know when I last got 8 hours. But IBS did return around dinner, as usual. Day two: two sprays. IBS holds off till about midnight, then I have a combination of mild stomach issues, neurological head-face tingling/tightening (a familiar old symptom, of course), pain in both hands, the tendon/fascia tangling of the Dupytrens, and after 2 hours of sleep, insomnia, relived at about 6 a.m. by the combo spray.

So for me, the B1 in activated form has obviously been a limiting factor. But the question is, how much Adenosyl OIl can I tolerate? How will it effect Folate need? B1 need//levels? I am currently taking about 85mg, all inclusive, which I know is high. But recall I am coming down from over 200mg/ day, refeeding a fairly long-term deficiency.

So we shall see. I am more tired than usual (old Ado symptom), have taken a nap each of the last two days, though only 1/2 hour naps. Let's see if I have the energy to get out and walk. The sun is out, people are blowing leaves off their lawns, the air is crisp...

 

[Johnmac]

I don't like baths (get bored) so I rub epsom salts all over my stomach straight after a shower.

Athene*, you don't need a tub. Obviously that's the nicest, and it exposes the maximum skin surface, but many people get their magnesium with footbaths.

And I remember someone in the group was a big fan of magnesium enemas......

 

[Jusjayne]

Im new on here and have been reading this thread as i have been emailing greg and getting alot of information. I started taking sublingual b12 after a a year of forgetting and had major problems with panic attacks and high blood pressure. Greg has told me its adrenaline overdose and then potassium dumping because im b2 deficient. And need to titrate up on iodine/sel/b2 and mo before trying again and that i need both active forms of b12 not just methyl anyone else had an issue like this where they were fine on b12 then after a gap they can no longer tolerate. I had alot of stress the year i forgot and someone has mentioned mthfr to me. Its information overload lol

 

[CCC]

Johnmac,

We're still having problems with carnitine. What exactly did you and Freddd work out?

Thanks

...

I began 4 years ago with the Simplified Methylation Protocol, which helped in certain ways. The first big 'wholesale' change - everything improved at once - was when I got the Freddd Protocol right. That took some time, as carnitine gave me horrendous crashes, then when I'd finally figured that out (actually Fred did), I found that all my symptoms would improve beautifully... Then the improvements would fade away.

...

When Greg proposed a much simpler solution, I was most willing to try it. It took a bit of doing, psychologically, to ditch carnitine & most of my m-folate...and to trust that oil on my skin was going to work as well as pills in my mouth. And to increase B2 to 50-60 mg/day.

But I did, and it:

(i) pulled me out of a very bad crash;
(ii) did not result in ghastly effects such as PFD, or ballooning folate demand.

Getting me above a crash baseline is good, but the real test will be whether it takes me above where the FP took me. That's a work in progress.

But two conclusions I can make already:

(i) the Greg/oils approach is easier - much;
(ii) it is also nett cheaper (despite the oils being $40/bottle), for reasons I can explain if anyone's interested.