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Refinement of B1 Dose Induced Paradoxical Folate Deficiency

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    On Wednesday evening I increased my B1 (Thiamin) dose from 15 mg to 40mg without changing my morning dose. I took 15mg yesterday morning and then 40 yesterday evening. By bedtime last night I had angular cheilitis and edema starting up with paradoxical folate deficiency. It looks like a single dose of 40mg is too much and a daily total of 55mg is to much. I've been taking 8mg daily of Metafolin. I'm going to have to get some 5mg tablets and see where the tipping point is. Such a huge and rapid effect from an additional 25mg of B1 in causing paradoxical folate deficiency is stunning.
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Freddd, why did you do this? strictly as an experiment? Indeed, stunning.
     
  3. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I thought I saw you post elsewhere that increases in B1, B2, or B3 disturbed your methylation. I'm wondering like ahmo...
     
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    B1 competes with folate absorption. Nothing paradoxical about that.
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    B1 DRIVES folate usage. Too little B1 and excess folate accumulates and healing stops..
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I'll tell you why. B1 drives folate usage. 100mg made it go crazy. I wanted to see where optimum healing occurred. I should have tried 5mg increments, might still do so. Maybe I'm already past optimum with 30mg a day. My CNS is slowly failing, I've got to reverse that.
     
    sproggle likes this.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    "Disturbed" doesn't begin to describe it. It cranks the amount of methylfolate and potassium needed and throws me into severe methylation block. I had no idea that 25mg more would do that so fast and hard.
     
  8. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Interesting. Is there any difference in dosages when talking about "regular" thiamin and the coenzyme version cocarboxylase? I take the latter 2-3 times a week with a 16mg dosage.

    thanks
     
  9. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi zzz0r,

    The only potential problem I see is with the B3 above 50mg. As I don't know where in the curve of response, not even for me. I haven't done a separates series on this yet, just combined with b1, b2 and b3. I don't have any idea how it might affect somebody. For twice a day use, that would be 400mg a day. Because the first 4 items are all 1000% if you divided it in quarters, you could take 2 of the quarters a day and then titrate the others with 5mg increments or so.

    Who knows, we are all still learning this. Whatever you do, it will contribute to the knowledge base after we see the results.
     
  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Freddd, do you know why B1 does that to you; I don't think it's universal? (Although it may be universal with undermethylators.)

    I know b1 intake messes up people with certain CYP450 weak links.

    I thought angular cheilitis was a B2 deficiency, so it's confusing.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta,

    The B1 controls folate usage. If a person is deficient in B1 they have generally high level of folate accumulate because it isn't being used. It turns out that too much B1 can force the use of more folate in some way. It appears to do this to most people who recognize paradoxical folate deficiency.

    Angular cheilitis can be caused by B2 deficiency. Like most symptoms it is non specific. When it is accompanied by other symptoms that fit folate deficiency it's caused by that. When it is accompanied by the symptoms of B2 deficiency it is something else. Knowing ones own patterns of these things is essential. I don't know what the onset time for B2 deficiency can be but for me folate deficiency symptoms can start in hours (edema) or a day (angular cheilitis) or IBS (3 days). Know thy self. it is complicated and confusing. And also here yet again it is demonstrated that these vitamins work better in the presence of active b12s and folate. I'm a systems analyst and it has taken me 11 years to untangle this because all the nutritional practices established based on research on people with CyCbl and folic acid in their diet are not predictive of AdoCbl, MeCbl, methylfolate and carnitine. Those chronic partial deficiencies have been adopted into the norms.

    For me I have never experiences b2 deficiency that I know of. But methylfolate deficiency has plagued me all my life. So far I have never heard from anybody that they had startup from adding b2 as the most limiting factor. As the RDA for men and women (1.3mg and 1.1mg) even a low dose B complex that I take has 12x the RDA on a twice a day schedule.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riboflavin
    A deficiency of riboflavin can be primary - poor vitamin sources in one's daily diet - or secondary, which may be a result of conditions that affect absorption in the intestine, the body not being able to use the vitamin, or an increase in the excretion of the vitamin from the body.
    In humans, signs and symptoms of riboflavin deficiency (
    ariboflavinosis) include cracked and red lips, inflammation of the lining of mouth and tongue, mouth ulcers, cracks at the corners of the mouth (angular cheilitis), and a sore throat. A deficiency may also cause dry and scaling skin, fluid in the mucous membranes, and iron-deficiency anemia. The eyes may also become bloodshot, itchy, watery and sensitive to bright light.
     
  13. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Thank you, Freddd, for this part of the post. My NutraEval test showed B2 deficiency as my worst deficiency. I've had a few of these symptoms (but with as dry as it's been in Colorado, dryness, redness, etc. could have been due to that.) Now I know...
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    With the induced iron deficiency MCV can be very small. If combined with b12/folate deficiency (large mcv) instead of large or small MCV it can be average by both influences. You are right about the air. I had all sorts of skin problems from the dryness when I moved to Utah. I always hope to include enough info for somebody to maybe get an ah ha. It's the patterns of symptoms. Good luck.
     
  15. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    What is MCV? Sorry, but you always lose me when you don't define your acronyms. And unless V is Virus, Vaccine, or Vehicle, I don't have a clue. I don't have an iron deficiency, and I take plenty of folate and b12, BTW.
     
  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hey Critterina, here's a nice little thing to put into your toolbar. Acronym finder. MCV = Mean Cell Volume. http://www.acronymfinder.com/MCV.html

    Yes! :thumbsup: This continues working for me. I keep reading these posts, with slightly different contexts, and I keep getting Ah Ha's! Much gratitude from me for your efforts. ahmo:love:
     
  17. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    That's a great tool! but how did you know it wasn't Mean Corpuscular Volume?
     
  18. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I think it indeed refers to cells, blood red cells.
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Yes, MCV, mean corpuscular volume. This is something that comes up so much I thought everybody would know that one since that is one of the tests corrupted by folic acid and CyCbl/HyCbl. One time my doc said "You've done well, your RCV isn't alerted any more. My MCV was 99.6 at the time. 30 years ago, MCV > 93 was alerted. That became > 96 and then > 98 and now > 100 or even > 102. I called a major lab after the standard moved under my feet. It turns out that mine was still 99.6 but that the upper range was now > 100 but they said "At the old standard we were having to alert half of the tests and the docs ignore us when we do that. So we moved it up. Some standard. Low Iron can take it below 80. So a perfectly healthy looking 90 can be the combo of iron and b121/folate deficiency. Low iron can be one of the results of low B2.
     
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  20. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Haha, obviously, I didn't! I thought it was Mean, but looked it up to be sure. I didn't bother looking at any other possible definition. I should put a warning on my signature, 'Don't Trust Me!':redface:
     

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