THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Athene*

Athene*

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386
reallyconfused said:
Yes I too remember Fred talking about TCR-li in kidneys holding b12 longer.

I took chelated copper on empty stomach first two days and had those side effects. Today I took with a meal and I tolerated very well without side effects.. Which is better for absorption? Yes, I will get my copper tested.. My CBC was poor last time.. Decrease in rbc count, along with raise in mcv.. Indicating partial methylation block.. That led me to try copper. But I have not tested for copper levels.
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I was OK with chelated copper and Solaray copper citrate but I eventually switched to buying Sebacate because it suited my husband better (he needed tiny amounts compared to me).

The burning feet (not fingers) you mentioned happened to me too but only after 2 weeks from starting copper. I began to lose energy again at that stage too.
I followed Fred and took small dose of iron. As @Methyl90 just quoted all the minerals work together.

I was very reluctant to take iron because my ferritin was a bit high (but low rbc and low transferrin saturation % on iron-studies blood test). Yet a small dose of 25mg x 3 of Bluebonnet or Solgar Gentle iron fixed everything within a day.
And I eat chicken, fish; and red meat in moderation but still needed the iron.

I had to take that level of iron for a full year and a few months. If I missed a dose I would get cold and weak. It seemed to stop the copper working whenever I tried stopping it.

Eventually when I switched to B-right everything settled (on lithium orotate 10mg x 2 daily for 3.5 years at this stage, plus copper 15mg for 15 months or so).
My liver at last began to release iron and ferritin is slowly dropping.

I no longer take iron. My rbc has improved at last. So happy about that. I am never cold anymore!

About absorption of copper: Fred advises empty stomach I believe, and away from other supplements twice daily. But I wouldn't force it or damage your stomach lining. I guess if you eat something with it that won't challenge copper too much?
 
Athene*

Athene*

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386
PS
Fred specifically mentioned molybdenum. Apparently it tends to go low around the same time as copper does. I take Solgar Molybdenum 150mcg along with all my minerals (except copper & lithium) twice daily with meals.

I hope to lower some of these high doses soon.
 
Athene*

Athene*

Senior Member
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386
Methyl90 said:
So 5mg Orotate is about 150/250 mcg elementals
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I read it the other way around.
For example I never bought the Advanced Research brand because it said 120mg. Then I read further and realised it was same as 4.6mg elemental.

Another example: I have an old bottle of Vital Nutrients Lithium (Orotate) 20mg per serving which I used to split in two.
Supplement Facts:
Lithium (elemental) 20mg
(from lithium orotate)
It doesn't specify the lithium orotate amount, just states elemental 20mg.
I used to split the capsules.

The Swanson brand says 5mg lithium (from orotate)
Again it doesn't specify the orotate amount.

I believe the important thing is that it comes from orotate. And that the dose should be 10mg x2 (elemental) daily ultimately, starting with lower dose & titrating.

I realise this doesn't seem to agree with Fred's quote above. I assumed he'd made a typo because all the products on the market were the other way around. Eg Advanced Research 120mg/4.6mg would indicate 240mg lithium orotate = approx 10mg elemental

All I can say is that what I've done has worked for me.
 
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Athene*

Athene*

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386
I edited above to correct name: Advanced Research is the brand (dr nieper mentioned on label) and it's 120mg lithium orotate, 4.6mg elemental.
At the time I bought it I was totally confused and had to read around online, and in the end decided Fred must have inadvertently typed it wrong way round. Just like I made mistakes above, which am now having to edit :bang-head:
 
Methyl90

Methyl90

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282
My brand each caps 131mg orotate = 5 mg elemental lithium... I'm not saying it was wrong but a lot of confusion about Interpreting the label. I believe that for now I will continue as I am doing by titrating 8mg of orotate twice a day to about 600mcg of elemental lithium.
 
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aquariusgirl

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My liver at last began to release iron and ferritin is slowly dropping.


so this is the holy grail right? so basically b vits copper iron lithium...is what got u there?
 
Athene*

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
aquariusgirl said:
My liver at last began to release iron and ferritin is slowly dropping.


so this is the holy grail right? so basically b vits copper iron lithium...is what got u there?
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Holy grail indeed. The elevated ferritin and low rbc and iron readings puzzled me for a decade. There were no inflammation markers so it didn't match with anaemia of chronic disease.

It was a combination of things that fixed it - obviously I got methylation going first with the 'deadlock quartet' then lithium, then copper (with small dose iron for a year), then B-right seems to have done it.

I tried and failed the B-right before a few times, when my copper was low. I had to give it up and go back to low-dose B-Complex. It caused very fast folate and potassium loss.
Now I'm on B-right for about a month and am getting better all the time.

I'm even able to tolerate vitamin d3 now (small amount so far, 500iu daily) without electrolyte chaos and general collapse which happened after a couple of days of only 200iu before. I hope to increase the D3 and not use the UVB lamp except occasionally.

Electrolytes have settled in general. For example I can forget to take potassium for over 4 hours without any symptoms. Before it would have to be every 2 hours without fail or else the heart would start banging and the hot sweats would start with drowsiness and muscle weakness, horrible irritability. I'm not lowering potassium yet, just in case.
 
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R

reallyconfused

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32
Athene* said:
I edited above to correct name: Advanced Research is the brand (dr nieper mentioned on label) and it's 120mg lithium orotate, 4.6mg elemental.
At the time I bought it I was totally confused and had to read around online, and in the end decided Fred must have inadvertently typed it wrong way round. Just like I made mistakes above, which am now having to edit :bang-head:
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😔 there is a good chance that Fred's post was a typo.. As you said we can't find a single supplement on the market that provides 5mg lithium orotate with 0.1mg elemental lithium per capsule/tablet. If it really was a typo, I seem to have wasted 1.5years on 1mg lithium a day. I take approximately 1/5th of lithium orotate capsule.. One capsule lasts for five days. Hmm.. If only Fred can clarify... I struck with this tiny dose as he said somewhere, a single large dose of lithium can flush out fluoride or something like that. Anyways lots of confusion around lithium doses..

And thanks Athene for suggesting about iron, I will try a small dose.
 
Methyl90

Methyl90

Senior Member
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282
reallyconfused said:
😔 there is a good chance that Fred's post was a typo.. As you said we can't find a single supplement on the market that provides 5mg lithium orotate with 0.1mg elemental lithium per capsule/tablet. If it really was a typo, I seem to have wasted 1.5years on 1mg lithium a day. I take approximately 1/5th of lithium orotate capsule.. One capsule lasts for five days. Hmm.. If only Fred can clarify... I struck with this tiny dose as he said somewhere, a single large dose of lithium can flush out fluoride or something like that. Anyways lots of confusion around lithium doses..

And thanks Athene for suggesting about iron, I will try a small dose.
Click to expand...

Do you practically think the mg Fred refers to are elemental lithium? 5 to 20 mg of elemental lithium?
 
Athene*

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
reallyconfused said:
😔 there is a good chance that Fred's post was a typo.. As you said we can't find a single supplement on the market that provides 5mg lithium orotate with 0.1mg elemental lithium per capsule/tablet. If it really was a typo, I seem to have wasted 1.5years on 1mg lithium a day. I take approximately 1/5th of lithium orotate capsule.. One capsule lasts for five days. Hmm.. If only Fred can clarify... I struck with this tiny dose as he said somewhere, a single large dose of lithium can flush out fluoride or something like that. Anyways lots of confusion around lithium doses..

And thanks Athene for suggesting about iron, I will try a small dose.
Click to expand...

Again, please test for iron (sorry for nagging, but I'm nervous around iron & copper!).
I took a risk taking small-dose iron in presence of elevated ferritin (low rbc & other iron markers). It was worth it and copper wouldn't work at all without it for a full year. Not sure why. No iron at all now and no coldness, bruising, hair shedding, burning feet, or fatigue (these symptoms were my tell-tale signs I was due my twice weekly iron 75mg dose). I'm now taking 9mg copper daily & reducing again soon to 6mg.

You could be replete with iron?

The water here is heavily fluoridated, more than EU guidelines recommend, so I may have needed more lithium than others. However, my husband had pernicious anaemia and had become very weak and fatigued.
He never needed any iron, lithium, or potassium. Just a B-complex & basic mineral supplement plus 1mg copper to balance the 30mg zinc in supplement.
He recycles small (1.5mg) MeCbl occasional injections, and is full of energy & health (fingers crossed) just like years ago.

I guess his genetics around b12 transportation & recycling are normal without need for Li, except for what he gets in diet.

But is it possible you're similar?
I'm much closer to Fred's genetics. I guess you could be too?

I'm amazed at how Lithium orotate has settled my electrolytes. I still need lots of potassium but I can manage for hours if I forget a dose and I can even tolerate vit D without massive (and dangerous) drop in magnesium & potassium.
 
Athene*

Athene*

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386
reallyconfused said:
Yes, I think that's what @Athene* Athene says. She takes 20mg elemental lithium everyday. She has been taking for 3.5years. She is one of Fred's followers who hugely benefited from his protocol. So, I want to go with her.
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Yep, I break it into 2 doses of 10mg, started with smaller doses.
But I vary it now & skip doses here and there since reading how Fred did that to encourage more Li receptors. Same with b12.
Do bear in mind I may need more lithium than you due to genetics or environment- I just mentioned in another comment re heavily fluoridated water in this country.

Having said that, the Li doses I took for last 3.5 years really got the copper working and that in turn enabled me to tolerate B-right doses of b1 b2 & b3, which destroyed me before! And since that happened I'm really seeing huge improvements.

And I can at last tolerate vitamin D3.
Also just in recent weeks I have lost all the horrible water retention in tummy & legs that stubbornly remained throughout the 6 years on the protocol. It used to look so wrong and unhealthy on a slight frame. I have a normal shape again (and no sock marks!).
My dark hair growing back with the lithium & copper intake was a real surprise after 25 or so years of white. It's one if the more trivial happenings of my ongoing recovery but it gives me a fantastic psychological boost: a daily visual confirmation I'm on the right road.

I'm always worried about advising others re doses of anything though.
We're all so different. It's so hard to know isn't it? And as Fred always reminds people it's combinations of supplements and in the necessary order.
 
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Methyl90

Methyl90

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282
Yesterday I had a very powerful setback after taking double dose of methylfolate ... 15 to 30mg. Basically according to my theory it required additional B12 that my body didn't have available ... Causing the classic low B12 symptoms. It wasn't funny because 36 hours later I'm still taking a lot of B12.
 
Athene*

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Methyl90 said:
Yesterday I had a very powerful setback after taking double dose of methylfolate ... 15 to 30mg. Basically according to my theory it required additional B12 that my body didn't have available ... Causing the classic low B12 symptoms. It wasn't funny because 36 hours later I'm still taking a lot of B12.
Click to expand...

Any time I increased any supplement I needed more potassium, every single item that caused healing increased potassium need. Without enough potassium my b12 and folate wouldn't work properly. That's just my experience. You said somewhere you don't need potassium.
My husband never needed potassium either but he never became as disabled as I did and never needed huge doses of anything.
Hopefully you have settled by now
 
Methyl90

Methyl90

Senior Member
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282
Athene* said:
Any time I increased any supplement I needed more potassium, every single item that caused healing increased potassium need. Without enough potassium my b12 and folate wouldn't work properly. That's just my experience. You said somewhere you don't need potassium.
My husband never needed potassium either but he never became as disabled as I did and never needed huge doses of anything.
Hopefully you have settled by now
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It was precisely the lack of MB12, just one mg slowed my heart rate and allowed me to sleep. Unfortunately the next day was a disaster as I completely slowed down the whole system. The same thing happened with too much AdenoB12 it caused me a strong Edema and I realized them that I was on methyltrap and I needed methylfolate again ... at the moment I set it at 7.5mg 2
times a day each time after 10mg of MB12.
 
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