The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Ripley]

@Lou, if she did in fact have a terrible reaction to potato starch, it very likely means that her gut has viper-like pathogens. I suspect most people her age who've never thought to heal/maintain their guts probably have a lot of gut issues like that. You could call it a 'potato-starch intolerance', but all a potato starch intolerance is is a bad gut.

I suspect she would do better with a probiotic for a few weeks or months. Dr. Grace and Mr. Heisenbug are both head over heels about L. Plantarum (a good one is from Jarrow Formulas) and it's found in just about every fermented food. Here's what Dr. Grace had to say about it when I chatted with her about the progress here on this forum.

[Mr. Heisenbug] has been talking really exclusively on L plantarum as a probiotic. Have many at Phoenix rising tried this single strain? In SIBO, often the LABs are already overgrowing and causing massive SI damage (small intestines).

L. Plantarum is a strain that is far different then the rest. It's a human commensal and probably been with us for millenia. It's in nearly all fermented foods that I can find around the world -- kim chee, fermented oats, maize, grains in Africa, fermented dairy, raw milk, etc

Please ck this study out -- in every chronic condition that starts an antibiotic in either mom or kid/adult, it subsequently leads to different kinds of overgrowths: pathobionts, yeasts, Candida, parasites, worms

In this study, just introduction of a decent amount of human Lp strain into a closed simulated colon produced vast changes in reversal of antibiotic and candida damage. One thing that was not recovered was Bifido, the main protector of the SI and propels pathogens off adherence to SI epithelial cells (much like branched and long chain oligosaccharides -- like Green-banana and Green-plantain).

Have many of Phoenix Rising use Green banana flour instead of the high dose RS (potato starch, etc)?? A friend Pedro told me for the last 10 yrs in South America, they use green bananas to heal the gut, colitis and other gut diseases. It's been used actually for a long time. The oligo fibers literally cause pathogens to fly off the intestines in petri dish studies.

So the below study -- what I like about what they found. Shant do you think this helps eczema?
--L. Plantarum restores all the core players Clostidium, Bacteroidetes (probably the good ones, not the 'bad' ones), LABs except Bifido
--L. Plantarum appears to be antifungal in reducing candida
--L. Plantarum appears to be a 'prebiotic' increasing beneficial strains of Clostridium, Bacteroidetes, LABs, G+ coliforms (good Ecoli)
--the commensal strains all bring down candida invasions but not after massive antibiotic disruption (if no Bifido)

In Vitro Studies on Colonization Resistance of the Human Gut Microbiota to Candida albicans and the Effects of Tetracycline and Lactobacillus plantarum LPK
http://www.horizonpress.com/backlist/ciim/v/v4/01.pdf

Abstract
An anaerobic three-vessel continuous-flow culture system, which models the three major anatomical regions of the human colon, was used to study the persistence of Candida albicans in the presence of a faecal microbiota. During steady state conditions, overgrowth of C. albicans was prevented by commensal bacteria indigenous to the system. However antibiotics, such as tetracycline have the ability to disrupt the bacterial populations within the gut. Thus, colonization resistance can be compromised and overgrowth of undesirable microorganisms like C. albicans can then occur. In this study, growth of C. albicans was not observed in the presence of an established faecal microbiota. However, following the addition of tetracycline to the growth medium, significant growth of C. albicans occurred. A probiotic Lactobacillus plantarum LPK culture was added to the system to investigate whether this organism had any effects upon the Candida populations. Although C. albicans was not completely eradicated in the presence of this bacterium, cell counts were markedly reduced, indicating a compromised physiological function. This study shows that the normal gut flora can exert ‘natural’ resistance to C. albicans, however this may be diminished during antibiotic intake. The use of probiotics can help fortify natural resistance.

And maybe convince her to try a mouthful or two of unpasteurized (unheated) sauerkraut or kim chee, a few times a week (or every day if possible) for a few weeks. Then, once she's got some good bacteria in there, maybe make her a little meal or something and tell her you're going to thicken her sauce with a little PS, but don't heat it above 120º. It wouldn't be the first time in her life that a sauce she ate was thickened with a little bit of PS and the PS wasn't gelled (which happens above 120º). Then see how she does.

And Grace makes a good point about Green Banana Flour. Everyone should be taking some if they can.

 

[place]

Very intersted in this thread. I don't have the typical digestive issues per say. I tried the potato starch, and it give some issues but most of all it gave me IC issues. I am not allergic to potato's so I am not sure why I would get IC symptoms. I get IC when I eat cheese. When you take PS does, does your normal symptom just get worse?

 

[Ripley]

Very intersted in this thread. I don't have the typical digestive issues per say. I tried the potato starch, and it give some issues but most of all it gave me IC issues. I am not allergic to potato's so I am not sure why I would get IC symptoms. I get IC when I eat cheese. When you take PS does, does your normal symptom just get worse?

If you have gut issues, it can. As I've been saying, RS is useful as a diagnostic tool. RS without bacteria is an inert substance in the digestive tract. So, if you don't react well to RS, it means that there is bacteria in your gut that is doing something unpleasant with it (to oversimplify). Occasionally there can be die-off but that seems to be less prevalent. More than likely it means "viper-filled" cages — to use a zoo analogy. Some people have "empty" zoo cages who are missing keystone bacteria, like L Plantarum and other SBOs, etc.

Btw, when I say "RS" I'm not just referring to PS. You should also be trying green banana flour and/or green plantain flour and perhaps other prebiotics (there are many) to see if any are well tolerated.

Almost everyone, unless they have a perfect gut, will need some form of probiotics to help them make the most of RS and other prebiotics.

 

[NattieC]

You should also be trying green banana flour and/or green plantain flour and perhaps other prebiotics (there are many) to see if any are well tolerated.

Has anyone sourced either green banana flour or green plantain flour in the UK? I can't find any.

 

[Ripley]

Has anyone sourced either green banana flour or green plantain flour in the UK? I can't find any.

And speaking of which, can someone recommend which, brands of PS are good in the UK? I'll be traveling there soon and my gut bugs will probably get hungry after a few days.

 

[place]

Thank you! (oversimplified)

 

[Lou]

@Ripley

I really appreciate your reply. Maybe I can talk her into the sauerkraut or kim chee, make her understand possibility of some bad bacteria, not ps, as the ultimate source of her trouble.

I just ordered Jarrow's formula Lp, thanks for that tip, too. Will use it myself, as well.

 

[NattieC]

And speaking of which, can someone recommend which, brands of PS are good in the UK? I'll be traveling there soon and my gut bugs will probably get hungry after a few days.

There's Kockens Potatismjol which can be ordered online as part of a grocery order from Ocado. Holland and Barrett (High Street health food store) sell Neal's Yard Potato Flour which is 77g carbohydrate per 100g weight so presumably it's RS.

 

[maddietod]

There's Kockens Potatismjol which can be ordered online as part of a grocery order from Ocado. Holland and Barrett (High Street health food store) sell Neal's Yard Potato Flour which is 77g carbohydrate per 100g weight so presumably it's RS.

Potato flour is not the same as potato starch. It is not RS.

 

[Violeta]

Thanks, I'll get her some activated charcoal.
@bertiedog Thanks, she was going to try Immodium today.
This will poke at the credibility of my concern, but she is now playing Bridge with her Bridge buddies, she insisted it would be bad form to cancel at last minute. What's a son to do, can't do anything with that 'will of steel' of hers.

Yeah, I wouldn't take her to the doctor. I could picture a scenario similar to the one in this video about POTS.

What the H*ll is PS?

 

[NattieC]

Potato flour is not the same as potato starch. It is not RS.

Manufacturers don't seem very precise in their terminology! I've read that if a potato 'flour' is roughly 80g carbs per 100g weight, it's RS, so the H&B one seems to fit - but maybe it should also be tested to see if it settles when stirred in water?

 

[Lou]

Yeah, I wouldn't take her to the doctor. I could picture a scenario similar to the one in this video about POTS.

What the H*ll is PS?

Good one, Violeta, made me laugh, about twenty-seven times.

 

[jstefl]

MeSci:

I don't want to change the subject from the RS, but I did mention that I had blood tests from ARUP laboratories to confirm Dr. Chia's findings of enteroviruses and identify the types.
John

 

[Lou]

@Ripley Kim chee/ kimchi, same thing, right?

 

[Ripley]

@Ripley Kim chee/ kimchi, same thing, right?

Yes... sorry. I was blanking on the spelling.

Although, technically, "kimchee" is an accepted spelling.

 

[Vegas]

Howeve, I’ve read on this thread (I think @Vegas said it) that people think that PWME can get worse before they get better with RS and am wondering if it’s the RS. However, I got better before I got worse!

Should I cut my dose of RS? Carry on as usual?

I’d be very grateful for any suggestions and I’m curious to know if other people have experienced anything like this.

I’m reasonably sure it’s the RS that led to my improvement because @Sushi and others have noted improvements in their OI.

Thanks!

Quite simply, if you are feeling worse and the effects are seemingly intensifying, you will want to cut back, dramatically. An initial "honeymoon" period is very possible, in fact, I would say that was how I would characterize my experience. During this early phase you are reaping the rewards that commensal organisms provide, without the full consequences of the impending immune stimulation and the associated endotoxin mobilization.

Imagine if each episode of RS supplementation brought about tiny changes in the microbiota until you reached an important threshold wherein some environmental variable changed just enough to allow for a particular species to survive and replicate more vigorously. Unfortunately, that species also had the ability to displace pathogens whose cell walls are composed of highly toxic materials. In a healthy bowel, these lysed cell wall particles would remain in the bowel and the relatively high concentration of commensal organisms would mitigate the effects of these endotoxins.

I am not sure if there is any "turning back." The first step is to discontinue the catalyst for these changes. The second step is to establish what can be done to ameliorate your symptoms. It's hard to offer advice about this with limited information.

 

[adreno]

Potato flour is not the same as potato starch. It is not RS.

Kockens is starch, even it is named flour. In Scandinavia potato flour is really starch.

 

[Vegas]

Very intersted in this thread. I don't have the typical digestive issues per say. I tried the potato starch, and it give some issues but most of all it gave me IC issues. I am not allergic to potato's so I am not sure why I would get IC symptoms. I get IC when I eat cheese. When you take PS does, does your normal symptom just get worse?

Assuming IC is "Interstitial Cystitis," this could be a histamine mediated response in the epithelial tissue of the bladder. I'd be very surprised if IC wasn't found to be associated with infections in the lining of the bladder wall. Those mast cells can wake up and start doing what they do, which can involve a significant inflammatory response. If you have awakened an immune response competent enough to challenge an infection in the bladder, you are likely going to experience some intermittent pain.

 

[brenda]

There's Kockens Potatismjol which can be ordered online as part of a grocery order from Ocado. Holland and Barrett (High Street health food store) sell Neal's Yard Potato Flour which is 77g carbohydrate per 100g weight so presumably it's RS.

The H&B sinks in water.

 

[rosie26]

@Violeta hope you post that POTS video in a POTS section on PR. lol - it was great - thanks.