The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[NattieC]

Hi – I’ve been lurking while doing my RS experiment and I’d like to thank @Ripley for posting about this. I really am deeply grateful for the information.

I’ve had a very interesting (!) experience with it! I think I need some advice now, though.

I’ve had acute viral onset ME (CCC/ICC) for many years and am almost completely housebound.

I believe I have some form of delayed orthostatic intolerance and normally have to lie down about four hours a day.

I started to feel a little stronger in subtle but definite ways when I had fairly recently started doing four new interventions, including RS (I usually try a few things at once to speed up experimentation). I was:

• 6 weeks into taking 4 tbsp potato starch plus 1 tbsp psyllium husk powder plus 1 scoop Amazing Grass high-ORAC powder;
• 2 weeks into Chris Kresser’s 30-day Paleo restart diet;
• 4 weeks into low-dose naltrexone and long-acting NK cell tablets, both of which are supposed to improve NK cell function. My doctor told me not to expect any effects of these for at least two months.

After 2 more weeks, I realised that I didn’t seem to be lying down much and restarted my records, which had lapsed. My daily lying-down time had dropped from four hours a day to two and as I continued to measure, it fell by about a quarter of an hour a day. I was getting noticeably better every day!

I wasn’t pushing my improvement, just following it. I’d never seen anything like this and one day, after ten more days, I actually only needed to lie down for half an hour. This was phenomenal! I actually had energy. I still couldn’t walk any further but I could take a shower when I wanted, unload the dishwasher when I wanted, didn’t get as tired talking to people... you get the picture.

After another week of improvement I expected it to keep going but things turned rocky. The clocks changed and I needed more rest; I picked up for a couple of days but for the last eight days I’ve been feeling pretty bad, am lying down for about five hours a day, am having to go to bed for a couple of hours in the afternoon and a bit in the evening (not normal) and I feel generally very tired, with malaise and a little nausea.

Maybe I’m panicking too soon but I’d been doing great and now I’m doing worse than normal. It could be a bug (I can never tell if I’ve got a new bug – too similar to my usual state) or maybe I’ve overdosed on something on the Paleo diet (I’ve been eating oily fish twice a day and have just realised that’s probably a lot too much).

Howeve, I’ve read on this thread (I think @Vegas said it) that people think that PWME can get worse before they get better with RS and am wondering if it’s the RS. However, I got better before I got worse!

Should I cut my dose of RS? Carry on as usual?

I’d be very grateful for any suggestions and I’m curious to know if other people have experienced anything like this.

I’m reasonably sure it’s the RS that led to my improvement because @Sushi and others have noted improvements in their OI.

Thanks!

 

[knackers323]

Not necessarily. There is a fascinating post up on FTA right now of someone who did terribly on RS and it ended up being a canary in the coal mine for them, revealing a very messed up gut.

Free The Animal: The American Food Project Rings in For a Commenter and Not Good (Why Resistant Starch Doesn’t Work for Some) >>

Everyone should read that post. Here's a preview from the woman who was the case study:



If you have a terrible reaction to RS, read that post and consider having some real tests done. As Tim Steele and Dr. Grace BG wrote:

So the RS could in fact be feeding the bad bugs if that is what is in our guts?

 

[Ripley]

So the RS could in fact be feeding the bad bugs if that is what is in our guts?

It's possible. The average person usually has enough good guys that will flourish and knock out the bad guys. But, if your gut is in very bad shape, it's possible there may not be enough good flora to flourish and knock out the bad guys.

 

[outdamnspot]

It seems like reactions vary greatly from person to person, assumably due to gut microbiotic population. Anecdotally, my wife had discomfort and bathroom trouble from 1 tsp, my son had negative psychological reaction from .5 tsp, and I've had no reaction from 3 tbsp. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How did your son react, xjhuez?

I'm trying to work out if it's increasing feelings of 'stimulation' and aggravation, or if it's just a placebo, since I tend toward that direction anyway.

 

[Violeta]

It's possible. The average person usually has enough good guys that will flourish and knock out the bad guys. But, if your gut is in very bad shape, it's possible there may not be enough good flora to flourish and knock out the bad guys.

But if your gut is in very bad shape? That's why we're here, isn't it?

 

[jstefl]

It has been just short of a week since I restarted the doxycycline, and things are greatly improved.

I don't see how I could possibly take the RS without an antibiotic. I am able to tolerate large doses without any problems, and I am noticing improvements in many different areas. I sleep better, my stools are firm, my headaches are almost gone, I am sleeping better, I feel more relaxed, I have more energy, my brain fog is so much less, my stomach feels normal again, and I was able to go back and read through 200 posts from Vegas.

Apparently, though I don't understand much about biochemistry, the low dose Naltrexone that I have been taking for several years now, helps reduce the effects of TLR4, which is supposed to reduce inflammation, at least that is what I understand from the information that Vegas posted back in post # 644. The LDN seems to help, so I will continue with it for now.

There is so much wonderful information in this topic, but with over 1200 entries, it is pretty overwhelming. Over the years, I have tried almost all the drugs and supplements that have been mentioned on this forum. I have to say that the RS is the least expensive, and one of the most effective that I have tried. I am hoping that the improvements will continue, and RS will make it to my number one treatment. The one thing that hasn't happened yet is an big improvement in energy. After three plus months, there is still some gas being generated, which I take to mean that the "bad" bacteria are still being forced out. Hopefully, the gas will subside when the "bad " bacteria are under control, and my energy will return. At least I am at the point where I feel that I can go to public places without too much worry about embarrassing myself.

I have to believe that things would be much better if I had behaved differently years ago. I have always had a love of sweets, ice cream, soda, and all things bad. Without understand what I was doing, I most likely did a lot of damage that needs to be corrected. I am hopeful that I can make up for the sins of the past.

John

 

[Ripley]

But if your gut is in very bad shape? That's why we're here, isn't it?

I don't think we can generalize. There's a spectrum. And the point is that you can use RS as a diagnostic tool. If RS doesn't work for you, it may be a sign that things are very off. Others are able to go slow and see dramatic improvement. The only way to know is to try.

EDIT: Also, the person, above, who RS didn't work for had a very violent reaction — quickly running to the bathroom with uncontrollable urges shortly after taking RS. That's a pretty strong sign that something may not be right.

 

[anne_likes_red]

So the RS could in fact be feeding the bad bugs if that is what is in our guts?

A better case scenario would be that the RS alters the pH sufficiently (this happens with increased scfa production) so the bad guys weaken and die off.
Some people will experience a bad reaction though and some (like @jstefl) may do better with antibiotics first, or in conjunction with, RS.

@NattieC and @outdamnspot if you're feeling overwhelmed (physically, emotionally...) a few weeks in consider the above scenario where some nasty die-off might have crept up on you as conditions reach a certain point of change in your gut.
I was hit with negative symptoms from several weeks in, and what worked best for me was to stop the starch (100%) and wait until things came back to baseline before proceeding very slowly. I'm currently taking 1/2 tsp every 4 days and I'm reacting less and less each dose. I'm still experiencing positive effects from RS on these modest doses. HTH.

 

[Asklipia]

From this little RS (a couple of teaspoons a week if that) we seem to have grown quite a lot of bacteria.
Something very interesting happened. We spent a couple of days, not more, in a big city, taking our food with us, so we did not consume anything out of the ordinary, except for the water.
Normally we do not feel very well there and cannot stay for long.

This time we did not feel bad.
BUT
We had a big die-off and the runs for two days, which never happened there before. I am wondering whether we had grown a lot of bacteria, which were killed by something there.
Take a look at this :

Differential Damage in Bacterial Cells by Microwave Radiation on the Basis of Cell Wall Structure
Particularly p. 2 :
"Despite many studies on microbial destruction by microwave radiation, the mechanism of destruction is not fully understood. It is generally thought that the destruction of microorganisms is mainly due to a thermal effect of microwave exposure (16, 37, 38). However, another argument has also been proposed to explain microbial inactivation by microwaves. Several researchers have attempted to ascertain if such radiation has a nonthermal effect on microorganisms (7, 10, 27, 34). The destruction of microorganisms by microwave at temperatures lower than the thermal destruction point has been observed (11, 13, 22, 24, 27). In particular, microwave-stressed cells of S. aureus exhibited a greater metabolic imbalance than conventionally heated cells (27). Morozov and Petin found that hypertonic solutions (1.0%) of sodium chloride were less effective in protecting cells against heat damage during microwave heating than during thermal heating (29). This study examined the mechanism of microbial cell inactivation by microwave heating along with the differences in the effects on gram-positive and -negative bacteria."

True, their experiment was done with a high level of irradiation. But if the results do not depend on heat this means that even at low doses the bad effects would ensue.

Such a stressor would boost fungus, because fungus stressed gets worse, especially if the rest of the gut bacteria disappear.

Enzymes too get deactivated by irradiation :
Influence of microwave irradiation on enzyme kinetics

And it affects the cholinergic function of the brain :
Low-level microwave irradiation and central cholinergic systems

And I just found this :
Effect of Microwaves on Some Gram Negative and Gram Positive Bacteria



We'll need a lot of pre and probiotics all the time to counteract the effect of modern technology on our friendly microbiome.

Maybe time to devise a nice little belly-shield for such excursions into urban death-country. The brain has a shield of bone, but the gut is exposed, and people keep their phone nearby too!
Maybe we need a kind of tin-hat for the gut. My husband is going to make us one right now!!!!! For the next time we go there.
Of course I shall keep you informed of the results.

We are being sterilized from the inside it seems.

Be well,
Asklipia

 

[Asklipia]

I was hit with negative symptoms from several weeks in, and what worked best for me was to stop the starch (100%) and wait until things came back to baseline before proceeding very slowly. I'm currently taking 1/2 tsp every 4 days and I'm reacting less and less each dose. I'm still experiencing positive effects from RS on these modest doses. HTH.

We are so happy for you Anne!
We are having similar effects.
Positive effect on modest doses, reacting less and less.
We have added L. plantarum and it seems to help too.

 

[Violeta]

I don't think we can generalize. There's a spectrum. And the point is that you can use RS as a diagnostic tool. If RS doesn't work for you, it may be a sign that things are very off. Others are able to go slow and see dramatic improvement. The only way to know is to try.

EDIT: Also, the person, above, who RS didn't work for had a very violent reaction — quickly running to the bathroom with uncontrollable urges shortly after taking RS. That's a pretty strong sign that something may not be right.

Maybe you could place the warning at the beginning of the thread, too.

I took 1/4 tsp 3 times last week and on Friday night started a sore throat, which I still have. My seasonal allergies are bothering me for the first time in years. It seems like a few steps backwards, but I believe the theory behind the resistant starch and won't give up, either.

You really have to wrap your mind around it before you start it, and understand the possibilities. My daughter who has no autoimmune issues started taking it and has had no downside. She not only feels better, but looks better, too.

I'm going to focus on balancing my immune system for a week or two before my next dose. I think my Th2 branch is overreacting. I also have a theory that the spring time is probably the most difficult time to start the resistant starch thing for a couple of reasons.

 

[MeSci]

I took 1/4 tsp 3 times last week and on Friday night started a sore throat, which I still have. My seasonal allergies are bothering me for the first time in years. It seems like a few steps backwards, but I believe the theory behind the resistant starch and won't give up, either.

I too re-developed allergy that I hadn't had for many years (wool) and see it as a good sign. It suggests to me that our immunoglobulin abnormalities are declining.

I refer to this in my post here.

 

[Violeta]

I too re-developed allergy that I hadn't had for many years (wool) and see it as a good sign. It suggests to me that our immunoglobulin abnormalities are declining.

I refer to this in my post here.

That's very interesting, MeSci! Well, here I am feeling worse than ever; cold, tired, mild headache, plus other regular allergy symptoms. Do you have any clue what to do in this type of mess? Homeopathic allergy remedies seem to be helping a little bit, but I'm having a hard time wanting to eat.

I am going to get out my Rescue Remedy to see if that will help.

 

[jstefl]

MeSci:

I have to agree that this may be a "good" thing, or at least a sign that the RS is working.

I have been trying to understand how this all works. As I now understand it, the gram-negative bacteria are the bad guys. As they get killed off, they release lipopolysaccharides(LPS), which , in turn, cause TLR4 to be released. TLR4 then activates the immune system, causing a cytokine storm.

The TLR4 can be suppressed by several compounds including antibiotics, Naltrexone, and Ampligen.

I have learned through experience that even a small dose, 20 mg, of doxycycline is extremely helpful in suppressing the reaction to the RS. I am also taking a small dose of Naltrexone daily, which seems to help. My Naltrexone intake is only about 2 mg per day, but I notice a difference if I skip a dose.

The gram-negative die off is related to the dose of RS. Patience is the key here.

Those of us that have been ill for many years will undoubtedly need time to reverse the negative effects of the die off. I have been ill since January 1991. During the past 23 years, I have gone through many stages of my illness. I have to believe that even if our gut returned to our pre-illness condition, it would take time for our bodies to readjust. As our immune system begins to function again, there is much work to be done. All of us have a long list of symptoms that we would love to see reversed. Having a compromised immune system over the course of many years has given the bad guys a real advantage. I read that a healthy persons immune system kills off 30 to 50 billion cells every day to maintain a healthy body. After being immune compromised for 23 years, that number is going to be much higher for me.

I have had tissue samples tested by Dr. Chia. I have his picture showing that more than half of the cells he tested contain a virus. These cells will need to be killed off and replaced by healthy cells. Again, this will take time. I know that there is a great desire to be well as soon as possible, I feel that too. Pushing too hard is not the answer here.

My advice is to take it slow with very small doses of the RS, and try LDN and an antibiotic if possible.

John

 

[Asklipia]

To attenuate this TLR4 inflammation I use curcumin.
See here why.

I do this vaping it, in my experience it seems very different from other ways to take it.
This is how I do it : Vaping Turmeric.

Be well!
Asklipia

 

[Violeta]

John, do you know if resistant starch does anything about virus? Also, did your doctor see any bacteria?

Thanks

 

[maryb]

On my nutrahacker report curcumin was in the exclude list, explains why I couldn't tolerate the Enhansa.

 

[dannybex]

Maybe you could place the warning at the beginning of the thread, too.

I took 1/4 tsp 3 times last week and on Friday night started a sore throat, which I still have. My seasonal allergies are bothering me for the first time in years. It seems like a few steps backwards, but I believe the theory behind the resistant starch and won't give up, either.

You really have to wrap your mind around it before you start it, and understand the possibilities. My daughter who has no autoimmune issues started taking it and has had no downside. She not only feels better, but looks better, too.

I'm going to focus on balancing my immune system for a week or two before my next dose. I think my Th2 branch is overreacting. I also have a theory that the spring time is probably the most difficult time to start the resistant starch thing for a couple of reasons.

It could be that the Th2 is 'overreacting', but when I read the first part of your post, my immediate reaction was that it might be a good sign -- that your immune system was actually starting to react like it normally should. ???

 

[Violeta]

It could be that the Th2 is 'overreacting', but when I read the first part of your post, my immediate reaction was that it might be a good sign -- that your immune system was actually starting to react like it normally should. ???

I think you're right. I used to get a really bad cold every fall, but that stopped a couple of years ago. I thought it was because I was getting better. But I definitely have lung congestion and am coughing up a lot of mucus, so maybe my immune system is kicking in!

That thought makes it a lot easier to deal with. I've been feeling sorry for myself because the weather is so nice but I am too sick to get my yard work done.

Thank you

 

[dannybex]

I think it's pretty common that once one comes down with ME/CFS, that we in general stop getting 'normal' colds or influenza. Or more specifically, we stop having normal immune responses to these infections. I haven't had a real fever -- one that stays over say 101-103 degrees for a few days -- to burn off the bugs -- since I got sick back in 1998. Hopefully that will change for all of us…