The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Vegas]

I don't believe this. It certainly isn't inert, as my son and wife both reacted negatively to a small amount of potato starch.

I've not had my stool analyzed, so I have no idea. Yucca helps me a great deal with my mental issues - OCD and anxiety - but it hasn't helped me physically at all, which is what I was hoping the RS would do. Bear in mind that my ammonia problem may be genetic in nature, rather than bacterial. Also, based on my hyper-sensitive reactions to things (GABA, excitotoxins) I don't believe my serum ammonia has to get very high for my brain to suffer its effect. My BBB doesn't seem to function very well.

I have not introduced probiotics, yet. I do these things slowly - I don't like confounding variables. Now that I've trialed the arabinogalactan (zero reaction at 15g, big surprise) I will look to adding probiotics.

I'm not convinced of a genetic component for your GABA cycle based upon my own development of similar, albeit less involved CNS-mediated glutamate-glutamine problem, which began only after displacing these pathogens. This combined with your own experiences with a compound known to affect bacterial urease activity speaks very clearly that there is a bacterial pathogenesis. Are you telling me you have had these problems your entire life to one degree or another? Have high protein loads always caused these symptoms?

 

[MeSci]

I've been thinking about this, why someone wouldn't react to RS.

The first possibility is that RS cannot produce the effects that have been ascribed to it. I have over the years learned to become wary of such things, because failures have been numerous and false hopes plentiful. My wife sceptically refers to these interventions as "the next great thing that is going to bring about my recovery."

I'm not going to go into great detail about the legitimacy of RS, but there are some things that I have witnessed that defy any other obvious explanation. Little things, like seeing my wife exhausted by the end of the day and going to bed an hour and half earlier every time she takes 1 tsp of RS in the morning. I find that three of my children have lymphatic pain in some of the areas that have long been known to me, beginning several days after the RS. I see the changes in mood, changes in bowel habits, and some slow and nonlinear improvement in some things that are more subjective, like sleep and anxiety, which is trending in the right direction.

The bottom line is that these are inflammatory features, they are quite clearly features of endotoxins: Fatigue, lymph soreness/pain, mood disturbance. I have reviewed the studies describing LPS effects on humans, the research regarding endotoxins effects, how these molecules are neutralized, how they travel the body, what parts of the immune system they impact, etc. If we had lab studies, they would, in all likelihood demonstrate changes in IL6, IFN-gamma, TNF-alpha, etc. depending upon the concentration in the peripheral tissues. If you don't have the characteristic symptoms of endotoxin exposure though, these measures will not change.

I am thinking along your lines and beyond. Although I am using a different regime, the intended consequences are much the same - correcting dysbiosis and healing leaky gut.

I have recently been getting symptoms that suggest that I am succeeding, and am having some of the symptoms you cite.

I too think that gamma-interferon is involved. A positive thing about this appears to be that this is said to be a Th1 cytokine, and IIRC we generally have too much Th2 activity and too little Th1, so maybe this consequence indicates a correction to at least some degree.

If bacterial endotoxins are being released at high levels, this too may indicate gut-healing success, and the last gasp of some of those nasty little bugs.

The supplement I am going to try to alleviate these symptoms to some extent - 5-HTP - has anti-inflammatory properties, so there is reason to believe that it will calm things down a bit. It increases cortisol levels (as well?). My suspicion is that we have to put up with the symptoms a bit as they indicate a healing process, and we will hopefully come out the other side feeling better, and being significantly better. Wildly optimistic maybe, but it seems to make scientific sense, and I am an optimistic type.

Some of these current symptoms are reminiscent of the early stage of my illness, and gamma-interferon has been said to be highest in the first 3 years.

Think about when you first became ill (this is for ME sufferers generally). Did you have those symptoms that RS appears to be causing? Did they then go away? (I know that some people have not been ill for long, so this may not apply.)

I hope this makes sense. I am feeling very tired today.

My thread on interferon and depression has some links relating to this post.

 

[maddietod]

You will not be the first or the last person to have regrets about trying to modify the gut and hence awaken the immune response. In moderate to severe ME/CFS, it gets worse before it gets better, but I think there are a number of things you can do to smooth out the ride. Advice on the paleo forums is largely inapplicable to your situation.

I would love to hear your ideas. I've stopped everything but the probiotics until I feel my-normal again, and then I'm thinking of starting with small amounts of plantain/banana instead of potato. I'm allergic to nightshades, so it's worth a shot.

@Sushi, yes, it occurred to me that this might be a good sign. Now that I know it doesn't help with sleep (at least, not quickly), I'm willing to go back to low and slow. I think Dr. Rey is going to start me on Famvir soon......any thoughts about how this might affect that medication?

 

[xjhuez]

I'm not convinced of a genetic component for your GABA cycle based upon my own development of similar, albeit less involved CNS-mediated glutamate-glutamine problem, which began only after displacing these pathogens.

I'm not convinced of anything - it's all conjecture. I originally deduced that I had excess gut ammonia due to a genetic urea cycle disorder. It wasn't until lately that the possibility of some sort of dysbiosis came to my attention. That's why I've been here, experimenting with RS.

I can't comment on my "GABA cycle", tbh. I meant simply that supplemental GABA shouldn't pass the the BBB, or at least not much of it, and yet a small dose makes me ridiculously lethargic.

Are you telling me you have had these problems your entire life to one degree or another?

To a lesser degree, yes. What has motivated me to action these past few years is the worsening of my symptoms.

 

[Vegas]

I am thinking along your lines and beyond. Although I am using a different regime, the intended consequences are much the same - correcting dysbiosis and healing leaky gut.

Some of these current symptoms are reminiscent of the early stage of my illness, and gamma-interferon has been said to be highest in the first 3 years.

My thread on interferon and depression has some links relating to this post.

Yes, I think this is in part why we see a lack of consistency with inflammatory cytokines, and why I wouldn't look to them as markers of ME/CFS, but rather reflective of ME/CFS staging. You have entered the lousy period of heightened inflammation. Other "lower" level inflammatory diseases/conditions (like depression) are marked by constant immunostimulation and more robust T1 response. I think these folks just can't cross the threshold because the GIT doesn't materially improve without intervention. Evidence of depression in severe ME/CFS is not as consistent as one may think, with some studies indicating that depression is not especially significant in this disease. Perhaps because the immune response is suppressed and there is relative preservation of the tryptophan metabolism. This can change abruptly when the immune response shifts and bacterial endotoxins are mobilized.

I will read your thread. I would like to suggest another functional reason for the derangement of the tryptophan metabolism.

I will add, though, that I think PS will prove effective in shortening that journey to correct intestinal permeability, but likely at an initial cost of heightened symptomatic expression. I will elaborate when I can, but this principally relates to phospholipid synthesis, one of those things most able to protect against the effects the endotoxins create.

 

[Vegas]

I'm not convinced of anything - it's all conjecture. I originally deduced that I had excess gut ammonia due to a genetic urea cycle disorder. It wasn't until lately that the possibility of some sort of dysbiosis came to my attention. That's why I've been here, experimenting with RS.

I can't comment on my "GABA cycle", tbh. I meant simply that supplemental GABA shouldn't pass the the BBB, or at least not much of it, and yet a small dose makes me ridiculously lethargic.

To a lesser degree, yes. What has motivated me to action these past few years is the worsening of my symptoms.

Your situation is looking very much like you are missing those anaerobic organisms passed on at birth. If you want to protect your BBB, you need phospholipids. This is why you need phosphate, and this is also why you need bifidobacteria. PS=monophosphate ester.

 

[Vegas]

I would love to hear your ideas. I've stopped everything but the probiotics until I feel my-normal again, and then I'm thinking of starting with small amounts of plantain/banana instead of potato. I'm allergic to nightshades, so it's worth a shot.

@Sushi, yes, it occurred to me that this might be a good sign. Now that I know it doesn't help with sleep (at least, not quickly), I'm willing to go back to low and slow. I think Dr. Rey is going to start me on Famvir soon......any thoughts about how this might affect that medication?

Allergic to nightshades, just means you missing you type of bacteria and have too much of another.

I think you are doing the right thing and cutting back on this for now until you stabilize.

Famciclovir? Have you taken this before. I don't know too much about this, and will defer to others, but I will take a look at its mechanism of action. The only antiviral I ever took had me dry heaving for hours. I will try to offer some constructive thoughts about how to go forward, when I get back on the forum.

 

[adreno]

@Vegas, you often talk of phospholipids. How much of these do we need? Any dose suggestion? Do you supplement phosphatidylcholine (PC)? A few caps a day would be enough?

 

[anne_likes_red]

I've seen a pattern emerge since dropping the frequency of RS dosing. Nothing earth shattering but I'll add it to the thread in case anyone following finds it helpful.

I took 1 tsp potato starch after a four day break and I developed a fever that evening and experienced my usual lower body lymph "burning" plus a painful swollen lymph node in the left inguinal area which resolved over the next couple of days. I also experienced a day of "lower mood" which is not one of my usual ME symptoms.
...Four days after that last dose I took just 1/2 tsp PS and developed an elevated temperature that evening and overnight. I got generalised lymph congestion that time but nothing extreme or painful, and I came back to baseline over a couple of days. I've taken 1/2 tsp two further times at four day intervals and I've noticed mild lymph burning (lower body only) and again, a lower mood for a day or so.

I started taking AOR's probiotic-3 yesterday (2 caps, spaced out) and this coincided with my latest 1/2 tsp RS dose. I experienced a similar effect from this probiotic to what I did when I first took a hefty dose of resistant starch a couple of months back. I felt a faint buzzing sensation in my gut before going to sleep and last night I had an extremely vivid and detailed dream which felt like it went on all night! Woke up feeling well, and without the low mood I was expecting the day after my RS dose. Still got the lymph burning though!

I've developed white spots low down on two fingernails (zinc deficiency?). I'll increase my zinc intake a bit and see if that resolves.
I started taking an AOR B complex last week after reading this thread, and I'm curious to learn more about an increased need for phospholipids too Vegas...in due course.

My OI symptoms have remained improved. My husband has referred to me as "leaping about" and I had just thought the same thing about myself a few days earlier. On good days I feel a bit like a Spring lamb.

 

[Violeta]

@Vegas, you often talk of phospholipids. How much of these do we need? Any dose suggestion? Do you supplement phosphatidylcholine (PC)? A few caps a day would be enough?

I am wondering the same thing. Also, do you have an opinion on phosphorylated serine?

Is the phosphatidylcholine better than just choline?

Thanks

I was just thinking about egg yolks containing lecithin and found this interesting link.

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/12/meeting-choline-requirement-eggs-organs.html

 

[MeSci]

I can't comment on my "GABA cycle", tbh. I meant simply that supplemental GABA shouldn't pass the the BBB, or at least not much of it, and yet a small dose makes me ridiculously lethargic.

My guess would be that this is due to the GABA having an effect on your gut, and the 'gut brain' then communicating this to the 'head brain'. My 'two brains' (!) seem to be very intimately interactive, and this applies to all of us, perhaps to varying degrees. I observed even before getting ME that when I had groin pain from trapped wind I also had brain fog and leg weakness.

 

[MeSci]

Yes, I think this is in part why we see a lack of consistency with inflammatory cytokines, and why I wouldn't look to them as markers of ME/CFS, but rather reflective of ME/CFS staging.

Erica Verrillo referred to this in a good blogpost.

You have entered the lousy period of heightened inflammation. Other "lower" level inflammatory diseases/conditions (like depression) are marked by constant immunostimulation and more robust T1 response. I think these folks just can't cross the threshold because the GIT doesn't materially improve without intervention. Evidence of depression in severe ME/CFS is not as consistent as one may think, with some studies indicating that depression is not especially significant in this disease. Perhaps because the immune response is suppressed and there is relative preservation of the tryptophan metabolism. This can change abruptly when the immune response shifts and bacterial endotoxins are mobilized.

I will read your thread. I would like to suggest another functional reason for the derangement of the tryptophan metabolism.

I will add, though, that I think PS will prove effective in shortening that journey to correct intestinal permeability, but likely at an initial cost of heightened symptomatic expression. I will elaborate when I can, but this principally relates to phospholipid synthesis, one of those things most able to protect against the effects the endotoxins create.

Having reached the age of 60, and also having experienced a calming effect from my leaky-gut regime, I have felt quite relaxed about the slow speed of improvement, although advancing age does mean that I have fewer years ahead of me now.

The gentler effects of my regime compared with what people have experienced on RS is a welcome outcome of this slowness.

I have abused my body so much over my life in one way or another, I think it's time to be gentle with it!

 

[Xhale19991]

Erica Verrillo referred to this in a good blogpost.


Having reached the age of 60, and also having experienced a calming effect from my leaky-gut regime, I have felt quite relaxed about the slow speed of improvement, although advancing age does mean that I have fewer years ahead of me now.

The gentler effects of my regime compared with what people have experienced on RS is a welcome outcome of this slowness.

I have abused my body so much over my life in one way or another, I think it's time to be gentle with it!

So has this protocol helped anyone with IBS/SIBO/Candida?

I have a mix of the three and have been trying for months to find relief through dietary changes, supplements, etc.... to no avail. Would love to see if anyone has found success. Thanks

 

[knackers323]

So when we take the RS and it makes us feel worse, it is thought that it is because the good bacteria are multiplying and killing off the bad ones which release toxins and cause symptoms.

Is this correct?

And people are finding they then come out the other side after about four weeks feeling better?

 

[outdamnspot]

I apologize -- I don't really have the energy/concentration to read through this thread thoroughly -- but I had been wondering if anyone noticed any adverse psychological/physical effects on the starch?

Strangely, I was able to titrate up to 4 tablespoons a day rapidly, with only minimal gas that passed very quickly.

I noticed improved anxiety and better sleep, but also tremendous fatigue, lethargy and eventually depression and anhedonia setting in. It also may have been increasing irritability, though I'm not certain. I could think more clearly on much less sleep however.

My life is such a mess and the potato starch seemed to be doing something positive for anxiety, so I was reluctant to stop it, but it's so hard to assess properly.

One thing is I suffer from hypoglycemia .. taking it in cold milk after food helped that, but maybe it was dropping my sugar in my sleep. Should I try scaling back the dose?

 

[Violeta]

A little bit of information on phospholipids.

Lipids are a key component of the body’s cells overall. Phospholipids, a class of lipids, are especially crucial to the health of both cell membranes and neurotransmitters. Brain cell membranes are rich in two phospholipids in particular: phosphatidylserine (PS) and phosphatidylcholine (PC), with PC accounting for a larger percentage. Ensuring a steady supply of PS and PC through diet and supplementation can help in the fight to dissuade age-related cognitive decline and illnesses.

 

[xjhuez]

I had been wondering if anyone noticed any adverse psychological/physical effects on the starch?

It seems like reactions vary greatly from person to person, assumably due to gut microbiotic population. Anecdotally, my wife had discomfort and bathroom trouble from 1 tsp, my son had negative psychological reaction from .5 tsp, and I've had no reaction from 3 tbsp. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Violeta]

The past couple of days I've been wondering if the vagus nerve is involved in the reaction to RS. What lead me in that direction was taking a small dose of konjac caused a reaction through the core of my body that most assuredly had to be due to one common denominator. The only thing I could think of was the vagus nerve.

I realize this is kind of vague, but I'll try to find out more after work today.

This also may tie into histamines, because I am seeing quite a few people on the histamine FB page who are describing something similar to what I felt.

Someone just provided me with this lovely link:

http://alford.grimtrojan.com/Mast_Cells_GI_Motility_Disease.htm

 

[Ripley]

So when we take the RS and it makes us feel worse, it is thought that it is because the good bacteria are multiplying and killing off the bad ones which release toxins and cause symptoms.

Is this correct?

And people are finding they then come out the other side after about four weeks feeling better?

Not necessarily. There is a fascinating post up on FTA right now of someone who did terribly on RS and it ended up being a canary in the coal mine for them, revealing a very messed up gut.

Free The Animal: The American Food Project Rings in For a Commenter and Not Good (Why Resistant Starch Doesn’t Work for Some) >>

Everyone should read that post. Here's a preview from the woman who was the case study:

Subj: Results from American Gut: my innards are quite f*cked up

Results attached with crude photography below.

For context, I was the one who responded the worst to the PS. Started it twice, about six months apart, and it led to nighttime and morning loose and urgent stools. It just wasn't working. Now we know why.

My population was/is PRET-Ty sucky. And Googling some of these geni and families is freaking me right out. The same family as the bacteria causing the plague? A bacteria extremely populous in me that is only supposed to be in whiteflies?? I'm a bit nauseous! This is like the opposite of Tatertot Tim's profile!

​

If you have a terrible reaction to RS, read that post and consider having some real tests done. As Tim Steele and Dr. Grace BG wrote:

...Another lesson is that if you think you have gut troubles, don’t mess around with the American Gut Project. Get a real test, like the Metametrix GI Effects stool analysis and get a urine test while you're at it. These will need a doctor’s help and prescription, involving insurance paperwork and all that, but it may end up really improving your life. The American Gut Project is wonderful, but only for basic amusement. It only shows the level of diversity you have in your guts—which is totally fascinating—but potentially misleading. It won’t show yeasts, or put up a red flag if something is seriously amiss. Had Nancy not thought to share her results, she might have just gone on her merry way thinking that 25% Morganella was perfectly acceptable. Nancy may also find she has even more sinister inhabitants when examined fully.

 

[Ripley]

By the way, here is one of the most beautiful and easy to understand videos ever made about RS. Just gorgeous.