The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[finalgates]

i think after xifaxan i dont absorb RS.maybe xifaxan killed bacteria needed for RS degrading.i ordered primal defense,prescript assist,bacillus coagulans and aor 3 .are these probiotic supplements will help with this?

 

[MeSci]

Generally speaking, mice, rats and pigs make excellent laboratory proxies for humans.

I'm afraid not. Animal models are no better at predicting outcomes in humans than tossing dice. If you don't believe me, have a look at some quotes (mostly from scientists) in my blogpost here.

 

[xjhuez]

I'm afraid not. Animal models are no better at predicting outcomes in humans than tossing dice. If you don't believe me, have a look at some quotes (mostly from scientists) in my blogpost here.

For the sake of the thread, let's agree to disagree.

 

[Sushi]

i think after xifaxan i dont absorb RS.maybe xifaxan killed bacteria needed for RS degrading.i ordered primal defense,prescript assist,bacillus coagulans and aor 3 .are these probiotic supplements will help with this?

Hi finalgates,

I am not sure I understand your post (because I am in no way a scientist! ) but, just to comment, I have taken several courses of xifaxin over the years (it killed off a massive prevotella overgrowth) yet I am getting some significant responses to RS.

I have been a bit superstitious about reporting good results since we all know that it is hard to pin down "what is affecting what" but so far so good.

Best,
Sushi

 

[finalgates]

Hi finalgates,

I am not sure I understand your post (because I am in no way a scientist! ) but, just to comment, I have taken several courses of xifaxin over the years (it killed off a massive prevotella overgrowth) yet I am getting some significant responses to RS.

I have been a bit superstitious about reporting good results since we all know that it is hard to pin down "what is affecting what" but so far so good.

Best,
Sushi

ok thanks.you use any probiotics?

 

[Sushi]

ok thanks.you use any probiotics?

Yes, I rotate very high dose probiotics, sometimes VSL-3 but I am taking another one at the moment.

Sushi

 

[Ripley]

Interesting info on Lactulose and Arabinogalactan. Arabinogalactan is a prebiotic fiber usually sold as Larch Arabinogalactan (it comes from the bark of the larch tree). I see it's a major component of Prebiogen, which Chris Kresser sells. Seems to be expensive as hell, but it seems to be one of the fibers that can help modulate the gut flora to decrease ammonia, which I know is desirable with this crowd:

The effect of lactulose, pectin, arabinogalactan and cellulose on the production of organic acids and metabolism of ammonia by intestinal bacteria in a faecal incubation system

An in vitro faecal incubation system was used to study the metabolism of complex carbohydrates by intestinal bacteria. Homogenates of human faeces were incubated anaerobically with added lactulose, pectin, the hemicellulose arabinogalactan, and cellulose, both before and after subjects had been pre-fed each carbohydrate. Fermentation of added substrate was assessed by the production of short-chain fatty acids (SCFA) and suppression of net ammonia generation over 48 h of incubation. Control faecal homogenates to which carbohydrate was not added yielded an average increment of SCFA of 43 mmol/l, equivalent to 172 mmol/kg in the original stool. The addition of lactulose, pectin and arabinogalactan each increased the yield of SCFA by a similar amount, averaging 6·5 mmol/g carbohydrate or 1·05 mol/mol hexose equivalent; organic acid yield was not increased by pre-feeding these substances for up to 2 weeks. Acetate was the major SCFA in all samples at all times and, after pre-feeding with extra carbohydrate, butyrate concentrations exceeded propionate in all samples. Faecal homogenates incubated with cellulose showed no greater SCFA production than controls over the first 48 h, but there was a slight increase when samples from two subjects pre-fed cellulose were incubated for 14 d. Net ammonia generation was markedly suppressed by addition of lactulose to faecal incubates with an initial period of net bacterial uptake of ammonia. Pectin and arabinogalactan also decreased ammonia generation, but the reductions were not significant unless subjects were pre-fed these materials; cellulose had no effect on ammonia generation.[LINK]

But, as always, prebiotics only work if you have the right gut bugs in place, so no telling how well it would work for everyone.

Interestingly if you look at the Amazon.com reviews for Arabinogalactan, people are mainly using it to prevent/treat infections. People seem to use it as an immune enhancer to produce natural killer cells which fight viruses, etc.

Larch arabinogalactan: clinical relevance of a novel immune-enhancing polysaccharide.

Larch arabinogalactan is composed of greater than 98-percent arabinogalactan, a highly branched polysaccharide consisting of a galactan backbone with side-chains of galactose and arabinose sugars. Larch arabinogalactan is an excellent source of dietary fiber, and has been approved as such by the FDA. It has been shown to increase the production of short-chain fatty acids, principally butyrate and propionate, and has been shown to decrease the generation and absorption of ammonia. Evidence also indicates human consumption of larch arabinogalactan has a significant effect on enhancing beneficial gut microflora, specifically increasing anaerobes such as Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus. Larch arabinogalactan has several interesting properties which appear to make it an ideal adjunctive supplement to consider in cancer protocols. Experimental studies have indicated larch arabinogalactan can stimulate natural killer (NK) cell cytotoxicity, enhance other functional aspects of the immune system, and inhibit the metastasis of tumor cells to the liver. The immune-enhancing properties also suggest an array of clinical uses, both in preventive medicine, due to its ability to build a more responsive immune system, and in clinical medicine, as a therapeutic agent in conditions associated with lowered immune function, decreased NK activity, or chronic viral infection. [LINK]

EDIT: I'm also seeing people who are claiming that arabinogalactan "unclogs the lymph system". Sounds like it has to do with the increase in NK activity.

As a biological response modifier, larch arabinogalactan also appears to offer substantial promise. The currently documented effects on NK (Natural Killer (immunology) cytotoxicity, along with its effects on the function of the mononuclear portion of the immune system, suggest an array of clinical uses both in preventive medicine, due to its ability to build a more responsive immune system, and in clinical medicine, as a therapeutic agent in conditions associated with lowered immune function or decreased NK activity.

The prophylactic applications might include use as an immune-building agent for individuals with a propensity to ear infections and other upper respiratory infections. As a therapeutic agent, LARCH ARABINOGALACTAN APPEARS TO HOLD THE MOST PROMISE AS AN AGENT IN CONDITIONS CHARACTERIZED BY REDUCED NK ACTIVITY AND CHRONIC VIRAL INFECTIONS, SUCH AS CFS and viral hepatitis.[LINK]

EDIT #2: This FAQ (for pets/animals) claims that arabinogalactan does not feed harmful yeasts or candida.

EDIT #3: I'm almost positive that Kresser's Prebiogen is actually re-branded BiotaGen, which is much more affordable from Amazon (about half the price). Those products aren't a pure arabinogalactan, but a variety of fibers are often a desirable quality. For instance, it also has Beta-glucan, which has a number of immune-enhancing properties similar to arabinogalactan.

More details on BiotaGen can be found here:

http://www.klaire.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=K-BTG

 

[finalgates]

barley and ota grass what role have in prImal defense?they have SBO?

 

[Ripley]

barley and ota grass what role have in prImal defense?they have SBO?

Most of the better probiotics have a small amount of prebiotics in them. My guess is that's what they are there for.

 

[adreno]

Just got my thyroid test result:

TSH 0.72 (0.4 - 3.7)
T3 4.6 (3.6 - 6.3)
T4 20 (12 - 22)

So they all look normal. And older test a few years back, looked like this, definitely some changes:

TSH 1.3
T3 4.3
T4 13

Whether this is due to RS, iodine or a combination of factors, I can't say. I would be interested in seeing whether cortisol and aldosterone has gone up as well.

 

[MeSci]

Interesting info on Lactulose and Arabinogalactan. Arabinogalactan is a prebiotic fiber usually sold as Larch Arabinogalactan (it comes from the bark of the larch tree). I see it's a major component of Prebiogen, which Chris Kresser sells. Seems to be expensive as hell, but it seems to be one of the fibers that can help modulate the gut flora to decrease ammonia, which I know is desirable with this crowd:

Don't forget our earlier discussion about the possible undesirability of reducing ammonia if one has d-lactic acidosis, e.g. my post #324 on this page.

 

[Ripley]

Here's a study linking the restoration of NK activity with recovery from CFS:

Therapy of chronic fatigue syndrome
Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is characterized by unexplained, debilitating fatigue or easy fatigability lasting longer than six months. While a number of clinical trials have been performed in CFS patients, there is currently no established therapy for CFS. Treatment with acyclovir of CFS patients is ineffective. Intravenous immunoglobulin therapy appears to be effective, though the results are controversial. Antidepressants might help the associated depression and anxiety but not other symptoms. Trials with magnesium have improved the well-being of patients. Restoration of NK activity by biological response modifiers, such as sizofirann, resulted in restoration of NK cell activity and recovery from CFS. Taken together, immunological abnormalities may be involved in CFS, and its restoration may produce clinical benefit in CFS. [LINK]

This all makes me think arabinogalactan's and beta-glucan's ability to restore NK cell activity (found in BiotaGen, as described in my previous post) would greatly enhance any immune-boosting prebiotic protocol.

EDIT: Pretty crazy. Looks like @adreno noticed this a few years ago.

 

[Seven7]

Just got my thyroid test result:

TSH 0.72 (0.4 - 3.7)
T3 4.6 (3.6 - 6.3)
T4 20 (12 - 22)

So they all look normal. And older test a few years back, looked like this, definitely some changes:

TSH 1.3
T3 4.3
T4 13

Whether this is due to RS, iodine or a combination of factors, I can't say. I would be interested in seeing whether cortisol and aldosterone has gone up as well.

@adreno, something I learnt About thyroid (My CFS Dr told me) is if I have it closer to TSH 0.5 than to 1.0 My signaling slows down. Is not exactley Brain fog but example: You ask me 2+2 and then I have to think about what you just told me (Translating the questions in to what you just said, not the actual calcualtion, I haven't even make it that far....that kind of signaling) will be too slow. So like you are under TSH 1.0 watch for that. Just a thoguht.

 

[Gestalt]

EDIT #3: I'm almost positive that Kresser's Prebiogen is actually re-branded Biotagen, which is much more affordable from Amazon (about half the price). Those products aren't a pure arabinogalactan, but a variety of fibers are often a desirable quality. For instance, it also has Beta-glucan, which has a number of immune-enhancing properties similar to arabinogalactan.

More details on Biotagen can be found here:

http://www.klaire.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=K-BTG

Ripley thanks for posting the research on Arabinogalactan. I am definitely going to try it and see if it makes a difference.

Beta-glucan is harvested from yeast as it is a part of their cell walls, usually it comes from Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

In retrospect I am beginning to wonder if the initial success of the 2 week golden period of when I first tried Candex (never to be replicated again) was due to a massive pre-biotic effect. Supposedly up to 60% of the cell wall of Candida can be made of beta-glucan. I think that perhaps when I first tried Candex enzymes it tore up a massive amount of Candida and liberated beta-glucans on a large scale which then had a huge prebiotic effect and a positive immune stimulating effect. Not only was I destroying something bad I was perhaps more importantly feeding the good guys in one fell swoop. I think you had theorized something like this as well Ripley IIRC.

Beta-glucan according to this one study boosts bifido populations.

Once however most of the candida was destroyed, at least the parts containing beta-glucans the prebiotic effect stopped and my health quickly dwindled invoking extreme nausea as perhaps the Candida took on a different form that didn't contain pre-biotics as part of it's structure. Or it was an issue of scale. I had actually tried taking about 1g of beta-glucan daily for 3 months after for it's supposed immune enhancing properties but I think it was perhaps simply not enough because it had no beneficial effects.

EDIT: I feel that scale may be a crucial factor often overlooked when trying prebiotics. Perhaps taking 1g of beta glucan, FOS, GOS or Arabinogalactan is the equivalent of 1g of RS. You don't see meaningful results until you enter the 20g+ per day range.... Also the efficacy and preferred substrate for various strains/bacteria are additional confounding factors. So lots of different experiments to try....

 

[Vegas]

I'm away from home at the moment and many, many miles from my RS stash but I thought I'd update anyway...

I haven't used any RS for 13 days now, (or any probiotics for more than a week) and I'm continuing to have the lower body lymph swelling/burning. I ran a temperature on and off for the best part of 3 weeks, and had a very sore throat on and off but that's stopped now. It's early autumn here and everyone around me is well. Apart from the lymph I'm now feeling very well, and I wish I could back to the RS but feel I should maybe hold off a bit longer.

FWIW, last week a nurse friend suggested my symptoms were similar to what she'd seen with systemic toxo gondii infection. I have congenital toxoplasmosis (a flare up of which at adolescence kicked off my ME) but I have had no symptoms of an infection (and titre has remained stable) since 1999. I don't know if protozoal infection is playing any part in my response to RS or not, but so far I don't seem to be having the more typical reaction of gas/sulfur ==> gradual improved tolerance..
@Vegas you mentioned the lymph symptoms, and protozoa back there too....I'm curious as to whether you've had toxo gondii exposure in the past? Anne.

Not that I am aware of, but I think we likely share a similar experience of having acquired a degree of dysbiosis at birth. I don't think you would have acquired this protozoan if you had a more hospitable microbiome. My mother suffered from typhoid as a young child, which is typically not going to survive the acidity of the stomach. This and having pernicious anemia tells me she likely had dysbiotic conditions that she herself probably inherited from her mother, who had a near-fatal vaccine reaction & many other signs of GIT dysfunction later in life. The epigentic cascade was set in place many years ago, I think.

As to you present condition, I would operate under the assumption that the your symptoms are a clear manifestation of your improved ability to generate an immune response. This is not complicated, it is just a foreign experience to many, and the cumulative effects of sustained "immunoincompetence" have to be taken into consideration. There will be adverse consequences, even when there is no apparent stimulus, as you have experienced two weeks after the RS.

The lymph node you describe in the arm, assuming the right arm, is part of a different lymphatic channel altogether separate from the messenteric lymph nodes. If you are referring to the right arm, this may suggests that you have more than just the GIT infection, although not necessarily. As to whether this is a consequence of toxoplasmosis, I don't know.

My experiences have been very similar. I waited 10 days after the last tsp. The lymphatic pain by that time had largely but not totally subsided, and I was feeling pretty well. Then I took another tsp yesterday, and today I am having what I would describe as a true Herx reaction. chills, nausea, headache, body ache, ice cold hands, fatigue. I'm so over the RS experiment.

Seriously, I am seeing some good things, but 1 tsp is absolutely killing me, again.

 

[adreno]

Pretty crazy. Looks like @adreno noticed this a few years ago.

Ha, that's true

I had totally forgotten about that though.

 

[adreno]

@adreno, something I learnt About thyroid (My CFS Dr told me) is if I have it closer to TSH 0.5 than to 1.0 My signaling slows down. Is not exactley Brain fog but example: You ask me 2+2 and then I have to think about what you just told me (Translating the questions in to what you just said, not the actual calcualtion, I haven't even make it that far....that kind of signaling) will be too slow. So like you are under TSH 1.0 watch for that. Just a thoguht.

Well actually lower TSH would indicate more thyroid activity. In any case I feel overstimulated, not under.

 

[Sushi]

...
As to you present condition, I would operate under the assumption that the your symptoms are a clear manifestation of your improved ability to generate an immune response. This is not complicated, it is just a foreign experience to many, and the cumulative effects of sustained "immunoincompetence" have to be taken into consideration. There will be adverse consequences, even when there is no apparent stimulus, as you have experienced two weeks after the RS.

The lymph node you describe in the arm, assuming the right arm, is part of a different lymphatic channel altogether separate from the messenteric lymph nodes. If you are referring to the right arm, this may suggests that you have more than just the GIT infection, although not necessarily. As to whether this is a consequence of toxoplasmosis, I don't know.

My experiences have been very similar. I waited 10 days after the last tsp. The lymphatic pain by that time had largely but not totally subsided, and I was feeling pretty well. Then I took another tsp yesterday, and today I am having what I would describe as a true Herx reaction. chills, nausea, headache, body ache, ice cold hands, fatigue. I'm so over the RS experiment.

Seriously, I am seeing some good things, but 1 tsp is absolutely killing me, again.

I was getting lymph congestion and "fluish" feelings for a few weeks. I had been taking 1 1/2 tablespoons of RS. I stopped for a few days and for the last few weeks have been taking 1 teaspoon. The congestion, "fluishness" has slowly diminished and is pretty much gone now.

I think I am noticing some very good effects but I'll wait a couple more weeks to post about them.

Best,
Sushi

 

[Ripley]

In retrospect I am beginning to wonder if the initial success of the 2 week golden period of when I first tried Candex (never to be replicated again) was due to a massive pre-biotic effect. Supposedly up to 60% of the cell wall of Candida can be made of beta-glucan. I think that perhaps when I first tried Candex enzymes it tore up a massive amount of Candida and liberated beta-glucans on a large scale which then had a huge prebiotic effect and a positive immune stimulating effect. Not only was I destroying something bad I was perhaps more importantly feeding the good guys in one fell swoop. I think you had theorized something like this as well Ripley IIRC.

Wow. That's would be incredible if that's what happened. It's a very interesting hypothesis. Looking forward to hearing more.

I assume using BiotaGen in conjunction with RS would make a pretty bionic fiber.

 

[finalgates]

i am thinking adding 6grams inulin with RS because its cheap.will this dosage make any difference?and will it make it to the large colon?or it needs bolus 8 teaspoons?