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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. finalgates

    finalgates

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    i think after xifaxan i dont absorb RS.maybe xifaxan killed bacteria needed for RS degrading.i ordered primal defense,prescript assist,bacillus coagulans and aor 3 .are these probiotic supplements will help with this?
     
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I'm afraid not. Animal models are no better at predicting outcomes in humans than tossing dice. If you don't believe me, have a look at some quotes (mostly from scientists) in my blogpost here.
     
  3. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    For the sake of the thread, let's agree to disagree. :)
     
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  4. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi finalgates,

    I am not sure I understand your post (because I am in no way a scientist! :)) but, just to comment, I have taken several courses of xifaxin over the years (it killed off a massive prevotella overgrowth) yet I am getting some significant responses to RS.

    I have been a bit superstitious about reporting good results since we all know that it is hard to pin down "what is affecting what" but so far so good.

    Best,
    Sushi
     
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  5. finalgates

    finalgates

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    ok thanks.you use any probiotics?
     
  6. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Yes, I rotate very high dose probiotics, sometimes VSL-3 but I am taking another one at the moment.

    Sushi
     
  7. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Interesting info on Lactulose and Arabinogalactan. Arabinogalactan is a prebiotic fiber usually sold as Larch Arabinogalactan (it comes from the bark of the larch tree). I see it's a major component of Prebiogen, which Chris Kresser sells. Seems to be expensive as hell, but it seems to be one of the fibers that can help modulate the gut flora to decrease ammonia, which I know is desirable with this crowd:

    But, as always, prebiotics only work if you have the right gut bugs in place, so no telling how well it would work for everyone.

    Interestingly if you look at the Amazon.com reviews for Arabinogalactan, people are mainly using it to prevent/treat infections. People seem to use it as an immune enhancer to produce natural killer cells which fight viruses, etc.


    EDIT: I'm also seeing people who are claiming that arabinogalactan "unclogs the lymph system". Sounds like it has to do with the increase in NK activity.


    EDIT #2: This FAQ (for pets/animals) claims that arabinogalactan does not feed harmful yeasts or candida.

    EDIT #3: I'm almost positive that Kresser's Prebiogen is actually re-branded BiotaGen, which is much more affordable from Amazon (about half the price). Those products aren't a pure arabinogalactan, but a variety of fibers are often a desirable quality. For instance, it also has Beta-glucan, which has a number of immune-enhancing properties similar to arabinogalactan.

    More details on BiotaGen can be found here:

    http://www.klaire.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=K-BTG
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  8. finalgates

    finalgates

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    barley and ota grass what role have in prImal defense?they have SBO?
     
  9. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Most of the better probiotics have a small amount of prebiotics in them. My guess is that's what they are there for.
     
  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Just got my thyroid test result:

    TSH 0.72 (0.4 - 3.7)
    T3 4.6 (3.6 - 6.3)
    T4 20 (12 - 22)

    So they all look normal. And older test a few years back, looked like this, definitely some changes:

    TSH 1.3
    T3 4.3
    T4 13

    Whether this is due to RS, iodine or a combination of factors, I can't say. I would be interested in seeing whether cortisol and aldosterone has gone up as well.
     
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Don't forget our earlier discussion about the possible undesirability of reducing ammonia if one has d-lactic acidosis, e.g. my post #324 on this page.
     
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  12. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Here's a study linking the restoration of NK activity with recovery from CFS:

    This all makes me think arabinogalactan's and beta-glucan's ability to restore NK cell activity (found in BiotaGen, as described in my previous post) would greatly enhance any immune-boosting prebiotic protocol.

    EDIT: Pretty crazy. Looks like @adreno noticed this a few years ago.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  13. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    @adreno, something I learnt About thyroid (My CFS Dr told me) is if I have it closer to TSH 0.5 than to 1.0 My signaling slows down. Is not exactley Brain fog but example: You ask me 2+2 and then I have to think about what you just told me (Translating the questions in to what you just said, not the actual calcualtion, I haven't even make it that far....that kind of signaling) will be too slow. So like you are under TSH 1.0 watch for that. Just a thoguht.
     
  14. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    Ripley thanks for posting the research on Arabinogalactan. I am definitely going to try it and see if it makes a difference.

    Beta-glucan is harvested from yeast as it is a part of their cell walls, usually it comes from Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

    In retrospect I am beginning to wonder if the initial success of the 2 week golden period of when I first tried Candex (never to be replicated again) was due to a massive pre-biotic effect. Supposedly up to 60% of the cell wall of Candida can be made of beta-glucan. I think that perhaps when I first tried Candex enzymes it tore up a massive amount of Candida and liberated beta-glucans on a large scale which then had a huge prebiotic effect and a positive immune stimulating effect. Not only was I destroying something bad I was perhaps more importantly feeding the good guys in one fell swoop. I think you had theorized something like this as well Ripley IIRC.

    Beta-glucan according to this one study boosts bifido populations.

    Once however most of the candida was destroyed, at least the parts containing beta-glucans the prebiotic effect stopped and my health quickly dwindled invoking extreme nausea as perhaps the Candida took on a different form that didn't contain pre-biotics as part of it's structure. Or it was an issue of scale. I had actually tried taking about 1g of beta-glucan daily for 3 months after for it's supposed immune enhancing properties but I think it was perhaps simply not enough because it had no beneficial effects.

    EDIT: I feel that scale may be a crucial factor often overlooked when trying prebiotics. Perhaps taking 1g of beta glucan, FOS, GOS or Arabinogalactan is the equivalent of 1g of RS. You don't see meaningful results until you enter the 20g+ per day range.... Also the efficacy and preferred substrate for various strains/bacteria are additional confounding factors. So lots of different experiments to try....
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  15. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Not that I am aware of, but I think we likely share a similar experience of having acquired a degree of dysbiosis at birth. I don't think you would have acquired this protozoan if you had a more hospitable microbiome. My mother suffered from typhoid as a young child, which is typically not going to survive the acidity of the stomach. This and having pernicious anemia tells me she likely had dysbiotic conditions that she herself probably inherited from her mother, who had a near-fatal vaccine reaction & many other signs of GIT dysfunction later in life. The epigentic cascade was set in place many years ago, I think.

    As to you present condition, I would operate under the assumption that the your symptoms are a clear manifestation of your improved ability to generate an immune response. This is not complicated, it is just a foreign experience to many, and the cumulative effects of sustained "immunoincompetence" have to be taken into consideration. There will be adverse consequences, even when there is no apparent stimulus, as you have experienced two weeks after the RS.

    The lymph node you describe in the arm, assuming the right arm, is part of a different lymphatic channel altogether separate from the messenteric lymph nodes. If you are referring to the right arm, this may suggests that you have more than just the GIT infection, although not necessarily. As to whether this is a consequence of toxoplasmosis, I don't know.

    My experiences have been very similar. I waited 10 days after the last tsp. The lymphatic pain by that time had largely but not totally subsided, and I was feeling pretty well. Then I took another tsp yesterday, and today I am having what I would describe as a true Herx reaction. chills, nausea, headache, body ache, ice cold hands, fatigue. I'm so over the RS experiment.

    Seriously, I am seeing some good things, but 1 tsp is absolutely killing me, again.
     
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  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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  17. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Well actually lower TSH would indicate more thyroid activity. In any case I feel overstimulated, not under.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  18. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I was getting lymph congestion and "fluish" feelings for a few weeks. I had been taking 1 1/2 tablespoons of RS. I stopped for a few days and for the last few weeks have been taking 1 teaspoon. The congestion, "fluishness" has slowly diminished and is pretty much gone now. :)

    I think I am noticing some very good effects but I'll wait a couple more weeks to post about them.

    Best,
    Sushi
     
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  19. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Wow. That's would be incredible if that's what happened. It's a very interesting hypothesis. Looking forward to hearing more.

    I assume using BiotaGen in conjunction with RS would make a pretty bionic fiber.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  20. finalgates

    finalgates

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    i am thinking adding 6grams inulin with RS because its cheap.will this dosage make any difference?and will it make it to the large colon?or it needs bolus 8 teaspoons?
     

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