The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Hip]

Citrate activates Acetyl-CoA carboxylase which is a key enzyme in the pathway that synthesises new fatty acids. In other words it promotes storage of calories as fat instead of burning them for energy. This info is in every biochem text probably including wiki.

I don't know much about this, but are you sure that citric acid taken as a supplement is going to get into the cells in sufficient quantities to affect acetyl-CoA carboxylase and fatty acid synthesis?

I have never read anywhere that citric acid supplementation can affect the citric acid cycle / Krebs cycle.

 

[Sleeping Beauty]

I tried taking resistant starch at the beginning of last year. I did four months on 3 heaped teaspoons of RS a day (in addition to the 2 heaped teaspoons of inulin I regularly take), but found no noticeable improvements in my ME/CFS symptoms.

I had slowly worked my way up to 2 level tbsps twice daily and promptly crashed. My stomach is super sensitive and I am nauseous after pretty much any meal. I also have really bad IBS-D. But this was different and I decided at the time it might be a sign of SIBO. I then tried different pre-biotics, mixing them according to @jepps's recommendations and also experimented with different pro-biotics. I have been tolerating things quite well, meaning my intestinal symptoms haven't gotten much worse. Still nauseous after almost every meal, still IBS-D, maybe more gurgling in the lower abdomen, but other symptoms have improved.

Has that been a theme of this thread?

I might be overly sensitive to this as I have not been overly sensitive to pre- and probiotics, but it is something I have picked up on. As far as I remember, this sentiment was never as clear as today, though.

I still love and respect y'all, though!

 

[Sidereal]

Citrate is just citrate, the body doesn't care if it made its own or if it came from a pill. It will have the same effect on lipogenesis.

 

[Hip]

Citrate is just citrate, the body doesn't care if it made its own or if it came from a pill. It will have the same effect on lipogenesis.

Only if the citrate you take as a supplement can cross the cellular membrane in sufficient quantities, and then also cross the mitochondrial membranes to take part in the Krebs cycle. But searching just now I can find no mention that supplemental citrate slows down the Krebs cycle. So I take it that it is just your own assumption / theory that citrate supplements will impede the Krebs cycle.

In this study, very high doses of sodium citrate (around 40 grams) were given to athletes just prior to a 5 km endurance run. This was found to improve performance. That does not sound like a Krebs cycle slow down.

 

[adreno]

I am not sure why tolerating lots of Lactobacillus has any significance.

Because buildup of lactate seems to be one of the primary problems in ME.

 

[South]

start a new thread on CB on the main forum

Yes, here's a vote for a new thread please, on C. Butyricum.

 

[adreno]

N-acetyl-glucosamine is not actually a prebiotic.

Oh, but it is. It's a glyconutrient (monosaccharide) that feeds bacteria. There are 8 essential glyconutrients :

• glucose
• galactose
• mannose
• N-acetylneuraminic acid
• fucose
• N-asetylgalactosamine
• N-acetylglucosamine
• xylose

 

[adreno]

Yes, here's a vote for a new thread please, on C. Butyricum.

Done:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/clostridium-butyricum-a-game-changer.37324/

 

[Sidereal]

Only if the citrate you take as a supplement can cross the cellular membrane in sufficient quantities, and then also cross the mitochondrial membranes to take part in the Krebs cycle. But searching just now I can find no mention that supplemental citrate slows down the Krebs cycle. So I take it that it is just your own assumption / theory that citrate supplements will impede the Krebs cycle.

In this study, very high doses of sodium citrate (around 40 grams) were given to athletes just prior to a 5 km endurance run. This was found to improve performance. That does not sound like a Krebs cycle slow down.

No, this has been hypothesised before but I'm having trouble finding who said it and where.

 

[Asklipia]

@Asklipia
Did you find you also got significant benefits when you started taking Miyarisan? When did you first begin on this probiotic by the way?

We started 15th Feb 2015. Less inflammation when attacking nasties that give off LPS. Tolerating any reasonable amount of other probiotics and prebiotics. Happy and hopeful mood. Lots of energy. The lasting impression that CFS/ME has gone for good.

 

[Sidereal]

@Hip, I'm having trouble finding the original source of the high citrate in CFS claim but here are a couple of old posts by Alex and Rich.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/citrate-good-or-bad-for-cfs.4872/#post-106185

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/hypothesis.html

This leads to the observed fatigue, weakness, and contractions in the muscles. Meanwhile, back in the Krebs cycle, citrate builds up (as observed by the University of Newcastle group), because it is just upstream of the partial blockade. Citrate is transported into the Sarcoplasm, and it downregulates phosphofructokinase in the glycolysis chain, further lowering the ATP production.

This latter effect causes a glucose backlog in the blood, and the pancreas is forced to raise the insulin level to push it into the liver and fat cells, where it is converted to stored fat. This accounts for the weight gain in many PWCs. The overshoot in the control system then produces hypoglycemia in many PWCs. They consume carbohydrates again, and the cycle is repeated. (This is why a low carbohydrate diet is helpful for many PWCs. It stops this cycle.)

The resulting high average insulin level causes the fatty acids to be sequestered in the fat cells, and thus not available to be burned for fuel by the muscle cells. This accounts for the stubbornness of the weight gain in many PWCs.

Since the muscle cells cannot use glucose efficiently because of the downregulation of glycolysis by citrate, and since they cannot get fatty acids because of the high insulin, they burn amino acids for fuel, using what's left of the Krebs cycle, by anapleurosis. This causes the amino acid levels in the blood to drop (which is observed)

 

[Sasha]

I've just got myself a bottle of aloe vera juice (recommended for oesophagiitis) and, typically, I've just found something that's scaring me off it:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/aloe...-glyphosate-and-celiac-disease/#axzz3ZRVTFYs8

I see that people here have been using aloe vera (gel? juice?) as a prebiotic.

Any thoughts?

 

[Hip]

Because buildup of lactate seems to be one of the primary problems in ME.

That's very interesting.

I wonder whether lactate sensitivity is the key factor that differentiates ME/CFS patients who experience significant physical exercise-induced PEM, from ME/CFS patients who have only mental exercise-induced PEM. I am in the latter class. I have very little PEM from physical exercise, but get significant PEM from mental stimulation and mental excitation.

Exercise and muscle usage produces lots of lactate, and this lactate could be one of the drivers of physical exercise-induced PEM. If you look at this list of microglial activation and brain inflammation promoters and inhibitors, you see that lactate is one of the promoters of brain inflammation, along with lipopolysaccharide, homocysteine (which incidentally is reduced by the methylation protocol), and the hormone leptin.

So the lactate produced from exercise could be ramping up brain inflammation (lactate does cross the blood-brain barrier), and this might be causing the PEM. Likewise, the lactate constantly produced by bacteria in the gut could also be driving ME/CFS symptoms via this same brain inflammation mechanism.

As this study indicates, a lot of lactate is taken up by the brain during exercise (and in fact we now know that the brain uses lactate preferentially over glucose for energy). Under normal circumstances this take up of lactate may be fine, but if you already have chronic microglial activation as a result of a chronic infection, this surge of lactate in the brain may serve to ramp up the microglial activation and brain inflammation.



It would be very interesting to see if those patients who do badly when taking lactate-producing probiotics (such as Lactobacillus, Lactococcus, Bifidobacterium, and Streptococcus thermophilus which is found in yogurt) are also those patients who tend to suffer significant PEM from physical exercise.

Might be worth setting up a poll.



By the way, has everyone here who gets significant PEM from exercise seen the PEM-busting supplements detailed in this thread?

 

[adreno]

It would be very interesting to see if those patients who do badly when taking lactate-producing probiotics (such as Lactobacillus, Lactococcus, Bifidobacterium, and Streptococcus thermophilus which is found in yogurt) are also those patients who tend to suffer significant PEM from physical exercise.

You can count me in this group. When I take Lactobacillus probiotics, or fermented foods, I am in a state akin to constant PEM. I call it lactate hell.

 

[whodathunkit]

I am not happy about the fact that this thread has become a bit 'elitist' (for lack of better words) and that only people who react severely to Pre- and Probiotics are deemed to have ME/CFS. It's even more upsetting that these comments were made by people I have grown to admire while working my way through this thread.

I agree completely agree with this, especially the part about when the comments come from people I really like and admire, and enjoy interacting with.

Some people here are obviously and definitely sicker than others, and the actual causes of the illness/symptoms seem to vary from person to person. But I believe everyone who lands here and stays here ((in this thread and at PR in general) does so because we all have a lot more symptoms and problems in common than we do things that differentiate us. For example, your PEM may be worse than mine and maybe I can do more before I get it, but that does not change the fact that we both suffer from PEM and it's bad when it strikes. So it does kind of bother me sometimes when I see fellow members sort of dismiss my health problems or healing approaches I think may be helpful simply because my illness is not as severe as their own. IMHO that's analogous to a Stage IV cancer patient dismissing a Stage I or Stage II. Not cool.

 

[Sushi]

I am not happy about the fact that this thread has become a bit 'elitist' (for lack of better words) and that only people who react severely to Pre- and Probiotics are deemed to have ME/CFS. It's even more upsetting that these comments were made by people I have grown to admire while working my way through this thread.

I agree completely agree with this, especially the part about when the comments come from people I really like and admire, and enjoy interacting with.
Some people here are obviously and definitely sicker than others, and the actual causes of the illness/symptoms seem to vary from person to person.

Here is how I took these comments on this particular thread: yes, it could be interpreted as above, but I think this group is trying to tease out what makes us different in order to get a better idea of what protocols might work for whom--not to put anyone down as being "less sick." So, my take is that this little sub-discussion is not meant to imply elitism, but is more an attempt to identify the differences between us that make it impossible for one treatment to benefit all.

Sushi

 

[adreno]

Fine, have your little party because I said Hip's disease might be different from mine. There's nothing eIitist or great about a ME/CFS diagnosis, IMO. I don't personally have any diagnosis, although I do fit the SEID criteria (by my own reckoning).

I personally believe that SEID is a collection of diseases, with somewhat overlapping symptom picture. I certainly do not believe everyone here suffers the same illness. What I am saying though, is that if our symptom picture is vastly different, then our microbiome (and reaction to tinkering with it) most likely won't be the same either.

Oh, and I think @Hip actually found it an interesting debate, after all, especially the point about tolerance to Lactibacillus.

 

[whodathunkit]

Here is how I took these comments on this particular thread: yes, it could be interpreted as above, but I think this group is trying to tease out what makes us different in order to get a better idea of what protocols might work for whom--not to put anyone down as being "less sick." So, my take is that this little sub-discussion is not meant to imply elitism, but is more an attempt to identify the differences between us that make it impossible for one treatment to benefit all.

Agreed.

I should have read more carefully before I quoted, because in fact the phenomenon I was commenting on is not local to this thread but I have witnessed all over the board. "Recently" on this thread but most assuredly not only on this thread. It's happened to me a few times on PR, where I've felt my input was dismissed and "delegitmized" because my symptoms aren't as severe as others. Self-preservation and awareness of the historical volatility of my own mood are what kept me from quitting. This board is too valuable a resource to take toys and stamp off the playground in a huff, but my feelings have been hurt to that degree a few times. And I'm not the only one.

Further, my personal feeling is that no one around here intends to make anyone else feel that way. I certainly never do. For my part, I hope just calling a little attention to the power of semantics is enough to make us all think a little more about how we phrase our comments with fellow sufferers.

 

[Sushi]

he phenomenon I was commenting on is not local to this thread but I have witnessed all over the board. "Recently" on this thread but most assuredly not only on this thread. It's happened to me a few times on PR, where I've felt my input was dismissed and "delegitmized" because my symptoms aren't as severe as others. Self-preservation and awareness of the historical volatility of my own mood are what kept me from quitting. This board is too valuable a resource to take toys and stamp off the playground in a huff, but my feelings have been hurt to that degree a few times.

Not to divert the thread, but...yes, it does happen. When you see it and have even a passing thought of "stamping off the playground in a huff," just hit the report button under the post instead.

Sushi

 

[Sidereal]

If anyone here feels offended by anything that's been posted, you are free to hit the Report button under the post in question and the mods will decide whether anything said was out of line. I don't believe I've posted anything that's rude, elitist or contrary to the rules, but if I did, I apologise. This is my last post here.

I would just add that ME/CFS is the most stigmatising diagnosis in the world so the suggestion of elitism is a bit strange to say the least. No one here is engaging in Sick Olympics or is trying to suggest if you aren't bedridden or whatever you don't have ME. Clearly there is a vast spectrum of clinical severity but that does not mean that we don't all have certain cardinal features common to us all.

Given that there are no objective markers for ME/CFS and that many here are self-diagnosed (including @Hip, if I recall correctly?) it is (I would have thought) of interest to everyone to try to get to the bottom of our similarities and differences. The peculiarities of @Hip's condition have been discussed multiple times on several threads so perhaps new PR members may wish to consult those threads before assuming people here were being disrespectful to him. He has often pointed out that he doesn't get destroyed by physical exertion unlike the rest of us and gets PEM symptoms mostly from mental exertion such as socialising. He is also able to take what are quite incredible supplement cocktails which would have many of us here six feet under. See this from a recent thread:

Microglial activation inhibitors:
Hyaluronic acid 400 mg transdermal
Lithium orotate 60 mg
Vitamin D 10,000 IU
Turmeric 1000 mg
Vitamin E 400 IU
Chinese skullcap (4:1 extract) 400 mg
Genistein 56 mg
Lycopene 10 mg
Sulforaphane 400 mcg
N-acetyl-glucosamine 750 mg
Sesame seed oil 10 ml
Acetate (vinegar 2 tablespoons)
Siberian ginseng 5 grams
Terminalia chebula 1000 mg
Vinpocetine 10 mg
Reishi 600 mg
Curcumin 900 mg
Horny goat weed (Epimedium) 900 mg
Luteolin 100 mg
Fisetin 100 mg

A person who can take this or billions of Lactobacilli or 1000s of mg of phenolic compounds like turmeric daily without keeling over does not, I would argue, have the same illness I, @adreno and many others here have. That does not mean that he is not ill or that he doesn't have a subset of whatever the hell this ME/CFS thing is.