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Acetyl L- Glutathione, ATP, Baking Soda, Sam-e & Catalase = No PEM after exercise

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by Mya Symons, Dec 17, 2014.

  1. Mya Symons

    Mya Symons Mya Symons

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    I needed to report this to you all because it worked so well. Today I went to the gym. I actually did 30 minutes of exercise and lifted weights afterwords. Usually the weights at the end would kill me for about a week and I would be recovering from the cardio for at least 2 days. And, usually after exercise, I get a sore throat, headache, swollen lymph nodes, bad muscle and nerve pain, chills, and the cold sweats. When I go to bed the night I exercise, I wake up the next morning drenched in sweat. I have had very little to none of that recently.

    I take a lot of supplements, but I find the ones I mentioned above work the best to reduce PEM after exercise. Most effective is two baking soda pills before exercise and lots of catalase immediately after. I take 600 mg of Catalase after the exercise.

    I thought this might help others who experience bad PEM on a daily basis.
     
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  2. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Congrats, Mya. :thumbsup:

    I've found baking soda to work well PWO for recovery. Since I usually have whey after lifting, and whey makes for acidic urine, I've also been taking 2 potassium tabs with the whey.

    Please also post periodic updates.
     
  3. Mya Symons

    Mya Symons Mya Symons

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    Does the potassium reduce lactic acid or hydrogen peroxide also? I think the reason the baking soda combination and Catalase work so well is because the baking soda takes care of the lactic acid and the Catalase is a hydrogen peroxide scavenger.
     
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  4. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    I'd imagine that potassium does reduce lactic acid, but I've never used it pre-workout so I don't know from experience. As far as recovery, I haven't noticed a difference - but then I don't get PEM anymore.

    Baking soda did noticeably help recovery for me after long and taxing bike rides. But after a normal workout, I don't need it much. I'll use it again in the summer.

    Potassium citrate tabs don't have that horrible laxative effect that bicarb does, and I can take it with food/drink while bicarb needs an empty stomach.

    Keep up the good work.

    [edit: since you take sam-e, I'll mention that TMG did nothing for me but might for you.]
     
  5. Mya Symons

    Mya Symons Mya Symons

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    Thank you. I am also taking the supplements from the Pall Protocol which include NAC and TMG. It does help a lot.
     
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I think that's a good interpretation. And studies (see here and here) have shown that both bicarbonate and catalase (via its scavenging of hydrogen peroxide) improve muscle recovery after exercise.

    Interestingly, in other threads on this forum, ME/CFS patients said they had significantly less PEM after physical exercise when taking co-enzyme Q10 beforehand, when taking creatine monohydrate beforehand, and when taking branched chain amino acids (BCAA) beforehand.

    See these threads for anecdotal evidence about various "PEM Busters": How much CoQ10 do you take?Did I just slam the door on a PEM episode?!Creatine supplementation reduces my PEMBCAAs reducing PEMAcetyl L- Glutathione, ATP, Baking Soda, Sam-e & Catalase = No PEM after exercise (this thread).



    So that's now six PEM busters identified:

    PEM Busters for Physical Exertion:

    "PEM Busters" are supplements that can reduce or eliminate PEM.

    Creatine hydrochloride 2 grams
    Citrulline 1000 mg
    Branched chain amino acids (BCAA) 5 grams
    Q10 800 mg to 1800 mg
    Sodium bicarbonate ¼ teaspoon (1.5 grams)
    Catalase 600 mg (taken after exercise)

    D-ribose 5 grams three times daily.

    D-ribose is definitely worth adding to the list of PEM Busters, as Dr Myhill finds D-ribose helps some ME/CFS patients improve energy and minimize PEM symptoms, so that is another PEM buster. Ref: 1 2 One ME/CFS patient said: "Before taking it [D-ribose] I would be laid up for around 3 - 4 days. Now it's 12 - 24 hours recovery time when I over do it."

    All the above should help reduce PEM from physical exertion. These supplements might be particularly efficacious at preventing PEM if taken an hour or so before doing some unavoidable physical exertion.


    There are some very good deals on bulk Q10 powder on AliExpress.com, typically around $200 for 500 grams of Q10 98% powder.

    For comparison purposes, Q10 ubiquinone powder bought at purebulk.com costs around $29 for 25 grams, and $202 for 250 grams.

    Note that the supplement GliSODin raises catalase levels by 171%. Ref: 1

    Creatine hydrochloride is a good form of creatine to take, as this is more soluble and better absorbed than the usual creatine monohydrate (and the monohydrate form can cause stomach aches).



    PEM Busters Work in Part by Neutralizing Lactate or Reducing its Production

    There are several athletic performance studies (listed below) that support the observations by ME/CFS patients that the above-listed supplements can reduce PEM. These studies on athletic performance studies found that the very same supplements that patients on this forum have found reduce or prevent PEM also reduce the recovery period after athletic performance in healthy people. Several of these athletic performance studies found the supplements work via neutralizing exercise-induced lactate circulating in the blood.

    This study shows that the supplement creatine reduces blood levels of lactate from exercise. And this study found creatine increases muscle recovery after injury.

    This study found citrulline reduces lactate levels produced by exercise.

    This study found that BCAA reduces lactate levels produced by exercise (and this study found that by inhibiting the L-system transporter, BCAA suppressed the uptake of tryptophan, thereby alleviating fatigue).

    This study found that co-enzyme Q10 reduces lactate levels produced by exercise (in myotonic dystrophy). And this study found Q10 improves muscle endurance.

    This study suggests that sodium bicarbonate (bicarbonate of soda) can help neutralize lactate circulating in the blood. I think the alkalizing effects of bicarbonate may also support exercise performance, since alkalizing may increase tissue oxygenation via the Bohr effect (see this post).

    This study found that glutathione suppressed exercise-induced lactate.

    This study and this study found the drug dichloroacetate lowers lactate levels produced by exercise.


    I wonder if these supplements might also help the PEM I get from mental exertion? I find that even light socializing for 3 or 4 hours in the evening will cause me significant PEM the following day or two. This greatly limits my social life. Though I expect that the mechanisms of mental exertion-induced PEM will be different to those of physical exertion-induced PEM.



    PEM Busters for Mental Exertion (eg: hectic social or professional events):

    Prednisone at a dose of 20 mg or so taken 4 hours before the event. Some ME/CFS patients have vouched this works very effectively and reliably (though others report ill effects from this corticosteroid drug). See this thread. But also see the warning in this post (which cautions against using prednisone for any extended period of time, and warns that the PEM protective effects do not work for the whole day, they seem to wear off after about 6 to 8 hours).


    More info on PEM busters can be found in these threads:
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
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  7. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Mya Symons, @Sherlock and @Hip - This is an amazing thread. I have just learned from @pone today about baking sodium reducing PEM and it worked amazingly well for me. CoQ10 has never done anything for me. I take a lot of potassium, I seem to need a lot, but it doesn't increase my exercise window at all or reduce PEM, it just keeps me from experiencing the exhaustion of low potassium.

    I've never tried catalase - can anyone recommend a brand and source? I looked on-line and primarily see enzyme combos, but not straight catalase - thanks! This is the first thing I've found in 16 years of crashing that has helped PEM, I'm still blown away -
     
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  8. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    It looks like we have made the same discovery regarding sodium bicarbonate:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...and-mercury-detoxing.30967/page-4#post-536906

    Some of the things to extract from the above thread:
    * Using a conductivity meter to keep your hydration and electrolytes in balance
    * Using pH paper to measure acidity in urine and saliva
    * Why baking sodium (which is sodium bicarbonate) works: the body of the CFS sufferer is being thrown into glycolysis, and the bicarb is a direct attack on the acidity, neutralizing it quickly in the blood
    * Using potassium bicarbonate as a supplement with the sodium bicarbonate to maintain potassium balance

    In my own case, I believe that my CFS was caused by mercury, and the above thread explains why.

    The catalase is not something I have tried, and I like your theory about dealing with hydrogen peroxide! As you age you lose a lot of your antioxidants against reactive oxygen species inside the mitochondria. Do you know if the catalase is available in a liposomal form? Because if your theory is correct, the place you might want to use this would be inside the mitochondria, and getting absorption inside the cell might be an issue.

    Do you have some online references or books you like that describe catalase supplementation and how it might deal with hydrogen peroxide? The other supplements you describe I don't think would dramatically affect post exertional malaise. Glutathione outright makes me ill, but that is because I have a thiol sensitivity. Baking soda however is DRAMATIC: clearing most acidity within a few hours. Catalase logically strikes me as something that could be a game changer as well, and I want to read more.
     
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  9. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Hi, @Mary. I had to chuckle a little, because I went around with "baking soda helps exercise recovery" for months in my sig and hardly anybody said a word. So much is in the timing, I guess :)

    You might find it also helps with candida, if that applies to you.
     
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  10. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    I can feel it when very acidic. I've also been wondering if very acidic urination contributes over many years to prostatitis (which I don't have).
     
  11. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Timing is probably everything (like so much in Life :confused:!) I just happened upon pone's info by chance, and I didn't come here very often for a long time. I wish I had seen your signature before!

    I don't have candida problems, but I know a couple of people who do, so thanks for the tip.
     
  12. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    @pone The muscle-generated free radical that's tracked most in exercise studies in normals is probably malondialdehyde. The agent used against that might well be melatonin, taken pre or post WO.
     
  13. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    The problem is a place like this has 1000 suggestions to "try this, try that" and it becomes hard to know which are game changers and which are just random number generation.

    The sodium bicarb is a game changer. And the reason is that CFS post exertional malaise is (in my opinion) primarily about the body being in glycolysis at low levels of exertion. Bicarb is a direct chemical reaction to neutralize the acidity created by glycolysis. I have direct experimental evidence showing that this was true in my case, based on testing done in an exercise physiology lab. Sodium bicarb is a low cost and low risk thing to try, so why not give it a spin before and after exercise and see if it makes a difference?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
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  14. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Hey, I discovered its great usefulness after long taxing summer bike rides. :) I had fancied there would be a bicarb-club here eventually.

    I had always been slow to recover, even pre-CFS, btw. Between workouts or between sets. And there are other acids, as you probably know, besides lactic acid that account for the muscle burn.
     
  15. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    A local biochemist I hired explained to me that acidity can be in many different places in the body. It can be:

    1) in blood, in which case sodium bicarb is a good solution

    2) in tissue, which is treated by potassium bicarb (the potassium is a tissue alkalizer)

    3) inside the cell, in which case case rubidium will neutralize the acidity

    4) inside the nucleus of the cell, in which case cesium will neutralize the acidity

    @Mary sorry I forgot to mention the above as one reason I take some potassium bicarb with my sodium bicarb: we are treating acidity in different places. Your potassium treatments probably already do the same....

    I use urine testing on ph paper as a proxy for measuring blood acidity.

    I use saliva testing on ph paper as a proxy for measuring tissue acidity.

    I do not know of any way to test inside the cell, and I certainly do not know of any way to test inside the nucleus. But wow I would love to know more about those if anyone has insights. I strongly suspect that rubidium and cesium could have dramatic beneficial health effects if we had a way to make measurements in those environments. Since I cannot measure I don't want to take the risk of getting things deranged in those environments. If anyone knows of studies or N=1 observations about taking cesium or rubidium please share.

    The biochemist told me that some people with cancer consider treating acidity within the cell and nucleus using cesium and rubidium, but if you cannot measure anything that seems pretty problematic to me.
     
    Isaiah 58:11 likes this.
  16. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    So you are saying that malondialdehyde is used as a marker for hydrogen peroxide and all kinds of free radical activity?

    And malondialdehyde escapes the cell boundary so it can be easily measured in a blood test during exercise, or is the test done on whole blood?

    Any idea how much a malondialdehyde test costs? Is it commonly available? (e.g., Labcorp)
     
  17. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    Now that you mention this, I was also always slow to recover. And this is why I have always been a slow gainer on weight workouts. I wonder if bicarb would help "healthy" people to speed up recovery after heavy weight training?
     
  18. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    I only recall the overall exercise science. No details, sorry.

    It is lipid peroxidation, btw.

    A point of interest: the same aldehyde dehydrogenase family that breaks down MDA is also involved in breaking down the 1st metabolite of alcohol: acetaldehyde. So people with bad PEM might also have bad alcohol intolerance.
     
  19. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    It's most commonly used nowadays to extend performance marginally in HIIT. Yes, by high achieving normals.

    Slow recovery? I get the feeling that histamine did that in me - plus low zinc.

    Hard gainer? Maybe Mast Cell proteases.

    [edit: 'recovery after heavy weight training' When feeling extra sick, I'd certainly avoid "going for the burn" ]
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  20. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    Which Catalase brand are you taking? You take only one 600 mg dose after heavy exercise, and none during a normal day?
     

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