The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Rand56]

I understand the hesitancy of starting a seperate thread on Miyarisan, because of all the good info that has been said about it here already. I still think it would be a good idea to bring this to the attention of others by having this on another thread.. Wouldn't it be something the admin's can do, where they can add all posts from where the discussion started on Miyarisan, and then someone, my suggestion would be @adreno, start it off with an introductory post? I don't know..just a suggestion. You guys and gals would know better than me.

Or someone start a new thread and just link this thread, and say "Go read this thread, and start reading at page # and post # whatever it is.

 

[Sidereal]

N-acetyl-glucosamine is not actually a prebiotic.

Yes it is, a very potent one.

 

[Hip]

Yes it is, a very potent one.

Well in my brief search on "N-acetyl-glucosamine prebiotic" nothing came up. So if it is a prebiotic, it's quite an obscure one. I know NAG may theoretically feed Borrelia (though it's not proven), but that's more of a systemic infection issue, rather than gut issue.

 

[Sidereal]

Well in my brief search on "N-acetyl-glucosamine prebiotic" nothing came up. So if it is a prebiotic, it's quite an obscure one. I know NAG may theoretically feed Borrelia (though it's not proven), but that's more of a systemic infection issue, rather than gut issue.

NAG is a component of bacterial cell walls so yes it can feed anything. Then again, so can everything else that passes your lips including every other imaginable carbohydrate, protein etc.

NAG is used for leaky gut and ulcerative colitis quite a bit.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Last summer before I ever saw an ME specialist, I did two cannisters of GI Repair Powder from my former ND which has NAG in it and it drastically improved my GI issues. I thought I was sick then but I would be thrilled to return to where I was one year ago. Is this a good product? I think it is made by "Vital Nutrients."

 

[Hip]

I just went through every post in this thread containing the search term Miyarisan, and there was not really all that much info to be found. I did not search on Clostridium butyricum though.

Apart from a few conversations on dosing, the only info of note on Miyarisan I could find was the following posts:

Clostridium butyricum

Clostridium butyricum is a strictly anaerobicendospore-forming Gram-positivebutyric acid producing bacillus subsisting by means of fermentationusing an intracellularly accumulated amylopectin-like α-polyglucan (granulose) as a substrate. It is uncommonly reported as a human pathogen and is widely used as a probioticin Asia (particularly in Japan, Korea and China).[1]C. butyricum is a soil inhabitant in various parts of the world, has been cultured from the stool of healthy children and adults, and is common in soured milk and cheeses.

This really can be a good adjunct to the other prebiotics. It has also been proven to act as a TLR-4 antagonist; which to the uninitiated simply means that minimizes the inflammatory response created by the endotoxins contained as part of certain gram negative organisms. Of course the mechanism of this relates at least in part to the synthesis of butyrate, but when I looked at this last year, I found that this bacterium is able to participate in the biosynthesis of certain beneficial indolic compounds, which carry out many critical functions in epithelial immunity, barrier function, and energetics. I found that AOR3 most certainly dampened inflammation and from the odor, likely participated in indole biosynthesis.

There are two primary pathways by which butyrate is synthesized and this organism uses what I would call the less important one, but butyrate enhancement regardless of source is likely to pay dividends.

One thing Tregs do is inhibit the expression of the genes that precipitate the immune cascade that occurs in response to lipopolysaccharide. Yes, I know I am blinded by this stuff. They also inhibit macrophage activation and function as TLR4 antagonists of sorts.

C. Butyricum also has the ability to influence these genes and of course some of this is clearly related to its synthesis of butyrate. Can one organism materially change the equation? TLR4 antagonist are commonly some of the most beneficial compounds on PR, so if you feel better then go with it. I personally benefited from AOR3. it definitely has a very distal action, and the indole odor is noticeable.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Right now I am reacting to all food and it seems that only plain chicken and rice are okay. I had been having Stage 2 anaphylactic reactions and am taking four vials of Gastochrom before eating (plus daily Cortef, Zyrtec, Benadryl, Zantac, Daosin & Quercetin.) Today I added back in plain apple without the skin with the chicken & rice and so far I am okay.

Last year I was in a very similar situation. When I stopped tolerating tooth paste I realized I was having salicylate intolerance. After I started taking magnesium oxide it reversed in a couple of weeks. The problem of taking magnesium for many people is that it can cause candida flares.

 

[Sidereal]

Last summer before I ever saw an ME specialist, I did two cannisters of GI Repair Powder from my former ND which has NAG in it and it drastically improved my GI issues. I thought I was sick then but I would be thrilled to return to where I was one year ago. Is this a good product? I think it is made by "Vital Nutrients."

Just had a look at it. In addition to NAG it contains beneficial mucilages like slippery elm bark and aloe vera. Looks like a good prebiotic blend actually though a couple of things like zinc carnosine and L-glutamine make me worse personally. Of course if you wanted to play it safe you could get the ingredients separately and experiment.

 

[Sidereal]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucilage

The following plants are known to contain far greater concentrations of mucilage than is typically found in most plants:

• Aloe vera
• Basella alba (Malabar spinach)
• Cactus
• Chondrus crispus (Irish moss)
• Dioscorea opposita (nagaimo, Chinese yam)
• Drosera (sundews)
• Drosophyllum lusitanicum
• Fenugreek
• Flax seeds
• Kelp
• Liquorice root
• Marshmallow
• Mallow
• Mullein
• Okra
• Parthenium
• Pinguicula (butterwort)
• Psyllium seed husks
• Salvia hispanica (chia) seed
• Ulmus rubra bark (slippery elm)
• "plantago major" greater plantain
• Mulukhiya

Several things from this list have been good for me.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Izzy, I take Mag Malate in pill form plus Mag Sulphate by nebulizer and Mag Chloride (here & there, not daily) by skin oil so I think I am okay there. Unless Mag oxide does something specific for histamine issues?

Sidereal, last summer when I used the GI Repair Powder (along with other probiotics & digestive enzymes) it corrected my constant nausea and diarrhea but I had no food allergies or histamine issues at that time. So not sure how it would be if I tried it now! Probably a disaster b/c so much stuff in it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Izzy, I take Mag Malate in pill form plus Mag Sulphate by nebulizer and Mag Chloride (here & there, not daily) by skin oil so I think I am okay there. Unless Mag oxide does something specific for histamine issues?

I am sorry to tell you this but if you are in such a bad place taking all these types of Mg is because they are detrimental IMHO

Malate - to this day I was never able to tolerate any malic acid - contains salicylates. Looking from another perspective, malic acid stimulates the liver and might be making you dump toxins.

Chloride - if you have any issues with salicylates it's better to stay away from chloride since the acidification it promotes will compound with the salicylates.

Sulfate - I am not sure about the explanation to this one but an Epsom salt foot bath sent me to the ER while I was trying it for my sal intolerance.

Mg citrate - citrate is a mild chelator and will mobilize toxins as well - I am trying it right now and pushing through tinnitus.

Mg glycinate - my "defective" metabolism turns glycine into ammonia immediately (it helped my husband greatly though, and he has worse issues with ammonia than I do)

Mg aspartate - caused me anxiety - aspartate is excitotoxic like glutamate

So the only one left me to try was oxide... and I am glad it helped... But other people here who tried it had immediate candida flares...

I don't know about other people, but if magnesium is supposed to help you, it will be noticeable from the 1st day, as long as you are taking the right form for you, which can be tricky.

 

[Sidereal]

Excess citrate will just slow down the Krebs cycle even more (what little is left of it in ME/CFS) and promote fat storage.

 

[Hip]

Malate - to this day I was never able to tolerate any malic acid - contains salicylates. Looking from another perspective, malic acid stimulates the liver and might be making you dump toxins.

Malate / malic acid is a pure chemical, so cannot contain salicylate.

 

[Hip]

Excess citrate will just slow down the Krebs cycle even more (what little is left of it in ME/CFS) and promote fat storage.

Would you have link or ref for that? I sometimes take citric acid as a stomach acidity booster, as I have problems with betaine HCl.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Malate / malic acid is a pure chemical, so cannot contain salicylate.

So then it was bad for my salicylate intolerace for being an acid and/or for mobilizing toxins

 

[Gondwanaland]

Excess citrate will just slow down the Krebs cycle even more (what little is left of it in ME/CFS) and promote fat storage.

Edit - crap!
I am currently taking it to help me sleep... perhaps I should go back to oxide...

 

[Sleeping Beauty]

@Hip I have been using Miyarisan for about 3 weeks now. I am taking 4 tablets 2-3 times per day. It's hard for me to pinpoint its effects as I have drastically changed my diet over the last two months. I also started experimenting with PS first, then added other pre-biotics as I was making my way through this thread. Overall, though, I have improved over the last two months. I am currently at the point where I think I can live by myself again, with some outside help, after my Mom has been taking care of me for the last 4 months. So although the improvement is not a huge one yet, it's a very meaningful one. I do believe the C. Butyricum helped soften/hydrate my skin, as pointed out by others as well.

I am not happy about the fact that this thread has become a bit 'elitist' (for lack of better words) and that only people who react severely to Pre- and Probiotics are deemed to have ME/CFS. It's even more upsetting that these comments were made by people I have grown to admire while working my way through this thread. I am sure a lot of people who never posted in this thread tried experimenting with Pre- and Probiotics without any noteworthy changes to their symptoms, so they just stopped following the thread. There has to be severe selection bias in that the people who have been most active on this thread also had the most sensitive reactions to different Pres and Pros. And probably the most benefit from finding what works for them. That does not mean everyone else does not have ME/CFS. One could even turn the argument around and say that those who benefit so much from changing their Microbiota and Microbiome are maybe the ones having something other than ME/CFS. Seriously...

To make the RS topic more approachable for everyone (and prevent people from doing what I did, that is starting to make changes to their diet while reading the thread, thereby not benefitting right away from major game-changing revelations such as on page 130 or 131 or the Miyarisan) maybe it is possible for people who have been experimenting with this for a while to summarize their own experiences with RS, Pre-biotics, and Probiotics. For example: degree of illness when starting RS, improvements since, things that worked and things that didn't and at which dosages. This could be put into one document that everone interested in the topic could be directed towards. Maybe for those of us not in the US, there could also be suggestions on where to buy the different products.
A summary of scientific explanations and links would, of course, also be helpful. This way newbies can learn faster, oldies don't have to repeat themselves too much, and more people would be able to benefit from 150 + pages of this thread. I still think it is worth reading the entire thread, but in my case I took too much potato starch until coming across all the other pre-biotics mentioned in this thread (something that, interestingly enough, @Hip started a thread about in 2010 or 2011, which never got the attention this thread garnered). And it would be something doable for a lot of us. Definitely beats one person having to write a summary of this thread...

 

[Sidereal]

Would you have link or ref for that? I sometimes take citric acid as a stomach acidity booster, as I have problems with betaine HCl.

Citrate activates Acetyl-CoA carboxylase which is a key enzyme in the pathway that synthesises new fatty acids. In other words it promotes storage of calories as fat instead of burning them for energy. This info is in every biochem text probably including wiki.

 

[Sushi]

I still think it would be a good idea to bring this to the attention of others by having this on another thread.. Wouldn't it be something the admin's can do, where they can add all posts from where the discussion started on Miyarisan, and then someone, my suggestion would be @adreno, start it off with an introductory post? I don't know..just a suggestion. You guys and gals would know better than me.

Or someone start a new thread and just link this thread, and say "Go read this thread, and start reading at page # and post # whatever it is.

I am going to start Miyarisan too.

Re: a new thread, if someone sends me a list, I can split off the Miyarisan posts, (with someone writing an intro post--you can put the post here and it could be the opening post of a new thread) or if someone just wants to just start a new thread, you can use the link function to send people back to where the Miyarisan discussion starts here.

I had not been reading this thread for a while, just overloaded with work, and just came back to read about Miyarisan. I think it is important and ought to have its own thread--whether or not people choose to read it.

Sushi

 

[Hip]

I have been using Miyarisan for about 3 weeks now. I am taking 4 tablets 2-3 times per day. It's hard for me to pinpoint its effects as I have drastically changed my diet over the last two months. I also started experimenting with PS first, then added other pre-biotics as I was making my way through this thread. Overall, though, I have improved over the last two months. I am currently at the point where I think I can live by myself again, with some outside help, after my Mom has been taking care of me for the last 4 months. So although the improvement is not a huge one yet, it's a very meaningful one. I do believe the C. Butyricum helped soften/hydrate my skin, as pointed out by others as well.

That sounds like a welcome increase in health. These changes in our capabilities are important guides to improvements. It can be hard to gauge the benefits of a treatment, but when we notice we can now do something we never were really able to do before, that that demonstrates the improvement is real.


I tried taking resistant starch at the beginning of last year. I did four months on 3 heaped teaspoons of RS a day (in addition to the 2 heaped teaspoons of inulin I regularly take), but found no noticeable improvements in my ME/CFS symptoms.

I am not happy about the fact that this thread has become a bit 'elitist' (for lack of better words) and that only people who react severely to Pre- and Probiotics are deemed to have ME/CFS.

Has that been a theme of this thread?

It might be the case that people who react severely to prebiotics or probiotics have some type of intestinal condition such as dysbiosis or SIBO, and that's why ultimately they benefit from these treatments, as the treatments may help rectify the intestinal problems.