The power and pitfalls of omics part 2: epigenomics, transcriptomics and ME/CFS
Simon McGrath concludes his blog about the remarkable Prof George Davey Smith's smart ideas for understanding diseases, which may soon be applied to ME/CFS.
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Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by adreno, May 7, 2015.

  1. adreno

    adreno Learned helplessness

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    It has been requested that we start a separate thread on the probiotic Clostridium Butyricum, so here goes. I'm putting this in the general treatment forum, as this is not isolated to treating only gut symptoms. The microbiome affects everything, and if you are ignoring this fact you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

    The CB probiotic is the single most effective intervention I have tried for treating my ME symptoms. I doubt everyone will get the same effects, as our microbiome likely varies hugely. It might be a subset thing. I believe CB is especially effective if you tend towards autoimmunity and high inflammation. If you have seasonal allergies it is a good sign you need this probiotic. My allergies have improved hugely.

    I am quoting myself from the following thread, which contains lot of great info on CB, starting around here:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-been-looking-for.26976/page-142#post-584062

    Just to be clear on the connection between CB and resistant starch (RS), RS feeds clostridia species.

    Some effects of CB off the top of my head:

    - increases Tregs
    - shifts TH2 -> TH1
    - TLR4 antagonist
    - increases IL-10
    - increases AMPK
    - butyrate producer
    - reduces lactate
    - normalizes microflora
    - displaces pathogens (h. pylori, candida, e. coli, c. difficile, etc)

    I would also like to point your attention to this article, originally posted by @Antares in NYC, describing the importance of clostridia species:

    Among Trillions of Microbes in the Gut, a Few Are Special
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
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  2. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @adreno, how would this probiotic compare to Prescript Assist or S. Boulaardi?
     
  3. adreno

    adreno Learned helplessness

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    Not sure what you mean. They are not comparable. Every probiotic is different. PA is a bunch of soil-based strains. SB is a yeast.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
  4. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    Sorry I guess it was too vague of a question on my part. I was wondering as far as overall quality of symptom improvement for the micro biome and overall potential side effects. I am a novice with all of this and from the RS thread it seemed like Prescript Assist was recommended the most but maybe it is this one?

    I am unbiased and no agenda but trying to learn what can help me most? I will look forward to reading this thread and learning from it like the RS thread.
     
  5. adreno

    adreno Learned helplessness

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    I got no noteworthy effects from PA, but it might be different for others. I believe CB is in a league of its own, but lets hear other's experiences first. "Recommendations" change all the time, because we are pioneers in this field.
     
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  6. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    That's a very good point and I'd like to second it. I wasn't aware of any gut symptoms when I started using a prebiotic mentioned on the main thread (on resistant starch) that this new thread has split off from, but it gave me the only improvement I've had in my (CCC/ICC acute post-viral onset) ME that I've had since my major relapse nearly ten years ago - specifically, in orthostatic intolerance. I had to come off the prebiotic for some time (to sort out which of several interventions I tried at the same time eventually made me worse) and lost the improvement - and when I went back on it, the improvement returned.

    That's not to say that RS will help everyone but to underscore adreno's point that even if you don't think there's something wrong with your gut, that doesn't mean that intervening with your gut microbiome won't help you. The microbiome is a major player in immunity (and in all sorts of other systems).

    C. butyricum sounds very interesting - currently ten of us have tried it and four are about to try it (waiting for it to arrive in the mail!).
     
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  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Where do you buy it? Any major differences between certain brand names, or ones you recommend most?
     
  8. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    Here is some product background from Miyarisan's website...
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
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  9. adreno

    adreno Learned helplessness

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    It's sold as a Japanese product "Miyarisan" on Amazon and eBay. It's also a component of AOR Probiotic-3.
     
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  10. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Thanks for the heads up Adreno, this combined with the resistant starches seems like a huge boost in terms of synergetic combination. Interesting stuff indeed. Going to have to follow this thread and do some research on the correlations, and bacteria strain.
     
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  11. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I'm planning to give C. Butyricum a try. Mostly because the G.I. effects stool test shows my microbiome is basicly not producing any butyrate at all, overall very low on SCFA.
    I hope it will help with the chronic inflammation.
     
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  12. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    The only single strain brand that I have seen so far is Miyarisan. It's available from Amazon US and Ebay.

    It ships directly from Japan. Amazon estimates that it can take anywhere from 4-6 weeks for regular delivery. There are several retailers and some offer quicker delivery for an extra cost. I found one that charged $15.00 USD (some companies charge more) for expedited shipping and it arrived in about a week to where I live in California.

    There is also a multistrain probiotic called AOR ProBIOTIC 3 that contains Clostridium butyricum along with Streptococcus faecalis and Bacillus mesentericus. Probiotics can be tricky and I'm not sure if the other 2 strains are contraindicated for those of us with ME/CFS. Since so many strains of probiotics can cause negative reactions for those with ME/CFS I believe that single strains are better for experimentation purposes. Perhaps someone with more knowledge, or with experience using this specific blend, can share their opinion on the product.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
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  13. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Thanks for posting this @adreno
    My recent stool test showed low butyrate and over growth of S. Boulaardi
    Also have SIBO and candida, Berberine + GSE have been suggested to start with but just thinking about this now.
    high inflammation is a biggie for me too.
     
  14. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    @adreno, @Asklipia, @Vegas and @Sidereal, it might be good to get input on your individual dosages as what is recommended by the manufacturer (6 tablets, 3 x per day) seems like it might be a bit excessive for those with ME/CFS. I get the impression that the product is primarily recommended for occasional gastrointestinal distress so the manufacturer's recommendations may be based on short term usage.

    I've been taking it for just about a week now so I can only offer limited guidance. I started taking 2 tablets per day, went up to 4 and then 8. I decided to go back down to 2 tablets, 2 x per day, just to play it safe as it seems that I might have been stirring things up a bit. I may lower this to 2 tablets total per day.

    I'm assuming that once some equilibrium is reached the dosage can be ramped up over time, if needed. I also take a bit of PS as a prebiotic with the first, but not the second, of the day's doses. I prefer not to take PS too close to when I go to sleep. I've also been following the Perfect Health Diet for several months now.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
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  15. zzz

    zzz Senior Member

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    On the box, it says 6 tablets 3x/day, after meals for adults. So the 18 tablets is the total for one day.

    ETA: Standard delivery from Amazon took less than two weeks.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
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  16. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    Thanks, I fixed my original post.
     
  17. adreno

    adreno Learned helplessness

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    I started very slow with 2 tabs per day, and continued this dose for at least a month before increasing. In the beginning I had some GI upset, including pain, bloating, gas and diarrhea. This went away after a few weeks.

    There also seems to be an increase in immune function every time I increase the dose, including symptoms such as tachycardia, headache, sore throat, runny nose, and overall malaise. Go slowly.
     
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  18. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    It seems that most of us that are experimenting with CB are also taking some form of RS. Aside from the usual complications that arise from having MS/CFS, this might also help explain the need for lower doses as the RS should theoretically make the CB proliferate even more. I doubt the average person using this product would be following such a prebiotic regimen.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
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  19. adreno

    adreno Learned helplessness

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    And this might also be why fecal transplants seems to work only temporarily. If diet is not optimized to supply the nutrients not only for the host, but also for the important species of the microbiome, those commensals will be decimated in a matter of weeks.
     
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  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    S. boulardii is recommended to fight Clostridium difficile, and I am afraid other species under the Clostridium genus might also be sensitive to it. Nevertheless, I take S. boulardii 1x or 2x a month and I find it helps with histamine issues like insomnia and night urination (which might as well be candida symptoms instead).
     
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