The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Sidereal]

All these years I have been snubbing the sugarcane juice at the farmer's market They press it in front of you

Cat's claw is a South American herb, isn't it?

 

[jepps]

@Gondwanaland

However although I tolerate the RS, I am not feeling any better (yet?). Part of it has been unavoidable travel, but it didn't seem to account for the amount of PEM and general lack of improvement so far. It could also be that I haven't achieved a good balance of good bacteria and the loss of valuable native species has left me deficient in a way that RS is not able to address. I'm backing off the amount of RS that I tolerate for now until I'm in possession of a bigger representation of probiotic species.

@melamine, sidereal posted good sources of fibres. You could stop RS, take these fibres and probiotics for a month or two, and then start with RS and other fibres again.

If candida proliferated because of abx, then f.ex.bifido longum should be feeded, because all bifido longum is needed for candida. Here RS alone does not much good, as RS increases other healthy bacterias, but deminishes bifido longum. RS always should be only part of prebiotics.

 

[Sidereal]

@melamine, sidereal posted good sources of fibres. You could stop RS, take these fibres and probiotics for a month or two, and then start with RS and other fibres again.

If candida proliferated because of abx, then f.ex.bifido longum should be feeded, because all bifido longum is needed for candida. Here RS alone does not much good, as RS increases other healthy bacterias, but depletes bifido longum. RS always should be only part of prebiotics.

Couldn't agree more and if there's anything we've learned from 133 pages of collective experience is that RS is not the answer for anyone with ME/CFS, only a part of an overall gut modification strategy. Some people may not even need it. If I were starting this all over again, knowing what we know now, I would start with mucilages to try and fix the epithelial lining first and would have stayed away from RS until much later.

 

[melamine]

@melamine, sidereal posted good sources of fibres. You could stop RS, take these fibres and probiotics for a month or two, and then start with RS and other fibres again.

If candida proliferated because of abx, then f.ex.bifido longum should be feeded, because all bifido longum is needed for candida. Here RS alone does not much good, as RS increases other healthy bacterias, but depletes bifido longum. RS always should be only part of prebiotics.

Thanks @jepps - B. longum is in good proportion in the probiotics I'm taking, but I didn't know RS depletes it! I had intended to look into the fibers sidereal had mentioned and will make a point of doing so asap.

 

[Sidereal]

Thanks @jepps - B. longum is in good proportion in the probiotics I'm taking, but I didn't know RS depletes it! I had intended to look into the fibers sidereal had mentioned and will make a point of doing so asap.

Better yet, have a look at Vegas' recent posts.

 

[melamine]

Couldn't agree more and if there's anything we've learned from 133 pages of collective experience is that RS is not the answer for anyone with ME/CFS, only a part of an overall gut modification strategy. Some people may not even need it. If I were starting this all over again, knowing what we know now, I would start with mucilages to try and fix the epithelial lining first and would have stayed away from RS until much later.

@Sidereal - I was just reading on here yesterday about mucilages and haven't had time to look into them enough to see what kind are in my diet already and to make adjustments. I had just finished a week of abx and felt it was necessary to do some probiotic restoration in that way asap. I do like the way the RS has immediately restored normalcy to my bowel movements so I plan on continuing using it to some extent for that reason if for no other.

 

[Sidereal]

@Sidereal - I was just reading on here yesterday about mucilages and haven't had time to look into them enough to see what kind are in my diet already and to make adjustments. I had just finished a week of abx and felt it was necessary to do some probiotic restoration in that way asap. I do like the way the RS has immediately restored normalcy to my bowel movements so I plan on continuing using it to some extent for that reason if for no other.

RS has helped me, don't get me wrong, and I'm very glad to hear it's helping your post-abx situation. I just think it can be improved upon by mixing it up with some of the other stuff people have been talking about.

 

[melamine]

RS has helped me, don't get me wrong, and I'm very glad to hear it's helping your post-abx situation. I just think it can be improved upon by mixing it up with some of the other stuff people have been talking about.

Definitely. I'm also using beet root powder (small amount) and larch arabinogalactan, but haven't been using them in a balanced proportion to the amount of RS, from what I read. I also want to add more variety in time. I just kind of plowed into this to test the waters and now have to start refining.

 

[whodathunkit]

I just kind of plowed into this to test the waters and now have to start refining.

That is EXACTLY where I'm at. </really bad grammar>

 

[whodathunkit]

No doubt, maybe I wouldn't have carpal tunnel syndrome from typing all those damn long posts.

We like those damn long posts. Sorry about your carpal tunnel, though.

 

[whodathunkit]

about the skin in the heels... The skin of my heels has been really thick for a few years and when I started MB12 one year ago it all of a sudden became very thin. It took me a while to understand what happened. Thinning skin is a symptom of hyperthyroid, and I assume a very thick skin is a symptom of hypo. So I guess I can track the downslide of my thyroid function to when my foot soles became very thick...

Interesting about the possible thickening skin/hypothyroid connection. That would make sense and could definitely be a player in my problem, too, although I definitely it has to do with fatty acids, too. Have you ever seen thickening skin listed as a symptom of hypothyroid?

 

[Vegas]

I get tinnitus. I wonder if I should keep trying withit.

Gotta hate D3 supplementation too

The GSE might be impacting cholinergic/adrenergic neurotransmission. I'm seeing a lot of patients successfully treat tinnitus with nortriptyline. It's far from an ideal solution to keep pushing up NE, but it is reasonably effective in this role. When they drop the nortriptyline the symptoms come right back. I have to wonder if this would be a temporary side effect resulting from muscarinic/adrenergic antagonism.

 

[whodathunkit]

If I were starting this all over again, knowing what we know now, I would start with mucilages to try and fix the epithelial lining first and would have stayed away from RS until much later.

This is basically the approach my doc took when she diagnosed me with leaky gut five or so years ago. She started me off on a supplement that had a lot of slippery elm in it, and probably chitin (from shrimp, crab, and lobster), pllus something called "epithelial growth factor".

 

[Sidereal]

This is basically the approach my doc took when she diagnosed me with leaky gut five or so years ago. She started me off on a supplement that had a lot of slippery elm in it, and probably chitin (from shrimp, crab, and lobster), pllus something called "epithelial growth factor".

Interesting. Was it helpful?

Slippery elm bark is on my To Try list. I've done well with NAG from shellfish. I was not able to tolerate the Artinia chitin-glucan product, though. Big candida flare.

Have you seen this thread?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nxiety-symptoms-with-three-supplements.18369/

Interesting prebiotic combo for anyone struggling with sympathetic activation issues, though I would argue milled flax seed is more useful than flax seed oil.

 

[Sidereal]

I also wonder if gums like acacia and guar would be of use.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Have you ever seen thickening skin listed as a symptom of hypothyroid?

I can't be sure right now I think so

 

[adreno]

The creation and facilitated differentiation of T-regs orchestrates what is largely an anti-inflammatory and immune suppressing role, and these immune cells have also been found to exert control over many parts of our own metabolisms. T-reg proliferation, therefore, modulates an energetic response. Treg's themselves have also recently been proven to promote microbial diversity, which is widely correlated with better health. Treg accumulation like other immune cells mediates a condition and is a restorative process of sorts. Should we concentrate on organisms known to positively regulate this environment, well I'm not sure, but these microbes are generally part of a normal, healthy microbiome and have proven to confer benefits.

So you would say that increasing Tregs is a good thing for ME/CFS, keeping in mind those studies that have showed elevated levels? I'm confused because increased Tregs just doesn't fit the picture of the hyperimmune/inflammatory nature of ME/CFS. I feel like I need less immune activation, not more. I have seasonal allergies which definitely points to low IL-10 and Tregs.

 

[melamine]

I'm confused because increased Tregs just doesn't fit the picture of the hyperimmune/inflammatory nature of ME/CFS. I feel like I need less immune activation, not more. I have seasonal allergies which definitely points to low IL-10 and Tregs.

@adreno and @Vegas - This is the opposite of me. I have immune deficiency, non-specific autoimmune disease (MCTD), and almost no true allergies. The only time my IL-10 was measured, it was somewhat above normal. My understanding of ME/CFS is that it it's a disease of immune dysregulation, in which different aspects of it are emphasized in individuals for reasons to do with their particular genetic makeup and environmental and infectious exposures....which is a reason there has been so much confusion identifying what it is.

 

[Sidereal]

@adreno and @Vegas - This is the opposite of me. I have immune deficiency, non-specific autoimmune disease (MCTD), and almost no true allergies. The only time my IL-10 was measured, it was somewhat above normal. My understanding of ME/CFS is that it it's a disease of immune dysregulation, in which different aspects of it are emphasized in individuals for reasons to do with their particular genetic makeup and environmental and infectious exposures....which is a reason there has been so much confusion identifying what it is.

Similar situation here with an iffy autoimmune diagnosis (UCTD) and no true allergies but pseudoallergies to all sorts of things. I don't see any evidence of true autoimmunity in ME/CFS. If anything, it seems like we're stuck with excessive immune tolerance. I recall Cheney commenting how it took him like two decades to see the first case of lupus amongst thousands of ME/CFS patients.

 

[Sidereal]

I hope @awkwardlymodern won't mind me quoting her post from another thread here as it seems pertinent to this Treg discussion. Her experiences with steroids largely mirror mine.

To anyone else considering prednisone, I second everyone here who has suggested that it could be dangerous since it may allow causative pathogens to proliferate, weakening an already impaired immune response. You might feel better but it's worsening the underlying cause.

I don't know if this is helpful to anyone, but I took telmisartan for about a year to suppress my extremely elevated TGF-beta. (TGF-beta is elevated in many ME patients, it is an anti-inflammatory cytokine which generally suppresses and regulates the immune system, but it is hypothesized to have less effect on Th2 cells than Th1 or Th17).

Interestingly, the telmisartan-induced TGF-beta blockade both worsened my ME and shifted my generally Th1/Th17 dominant cytokine profile to a Th2 profile.

During this time, I felt MUCH better on prednisone, but tapering off (as others have mentioned) caused a major relapse.

After stopping the telmisartan, my symptoms improved. With my TGF-beta high again, and my Th1/Th17 cells reactivated, I had another exacerbation of my ME after a strep infection. This time, I tried a very short trial of a small amount of prednisone, just out of curiosity.

This time, taking prednisone made me feel a lot worse.

So our immune and cytokine profile at the time probably determines whether or not prednisone will make us feel better or worse, but it does not change the underlying disease or make it a "different disease."

Another issue to consider with prednisone is that it generally causes tissues to weaken and thin over time. Thin and fragile (excessively permeable) intestinal walls and blood-brain barriers, depending on who you talk to, are either causative factors, contributing factors, or symptoms of ME/CFS pathology.

But any way you look at it, you don't want a thin, leaky gut, BBB, or any other membrane when you have ME.