The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[whodathunkit]

Anyone who is sane caves in

Um...did you just call me crazy? Cuz I'm not diving into the french fries this time.

Seriously, now.

when you consider that overweight is a disease where the body, for reasons currently unknown, defends an elevated fat mass setpoint

I like the language "defends an elevated fat mass set point". Of course I know about set points and in fact I've moved mine several times in my life, both forwards and backwards. Both times I moved it backwards it took a long time (like more than a year) and a lot of effort (complete disregard for health wrt drug, alcohol, or food consumption) to move it forward again.

But in the last decade or so it's felt like my body was defending itself against whatever I've tried to do to make it better. It's almost like there's something outside myself influencing my body. If I was superstitious or religious I might call it demons or something more fancifully perjorative. Sometimes it feels almost malign in its efforts to keep me in the same old rut, mentally and physically. For years when I've thought about this I get reminded of Gimli in the LOTR when he says there is "some evil that sets its will against us" (when he's speaking of their difficulty tracking the Uruk Hai through the plains of Rohan) </geekery>

The "evil" used to overwhelm me but now I'm just getting pissed about it.

Could be more about the critters we're trying to balance in this thread.

Truth is, ~5% weight loss brings about maximal benefits in terms of resolving hypertension, type 2 DM and dyslipidemia. Anything beyond that is actually damaging.

Why damaging? What have you read to make you say this? And why would this hold true for people who are not congenitally fat/metabolically challenged to begin with, but become that way only later in life, through bad lifestyle? Wouldn't you think that under the right conditions the body would want to go back to something approximating the original metabolism? That is my hope, BTW. That eventually, if I keep at it long enough and do not give in to the "evil" (whatever it is, gut critters or viruses or microbes or sheer cussedness, etc.), my body will allow me to go back to my original metabolism. Biggest "if" that I can see in this scenario right now being whether or not I've screwed my pancreas for good and all, or if they're just tired and can come back given the right diet/lifestyle strategies.

 

[melamine]

@melamine @whodathunkit these hormonal symptoms, that you describe, are the symptoms, that I have at times. I wrote, that I do bioenergetic testing. Each time, when I have better times, and then realize this kind of brain symptoms, then the testing shows old infections, mostly in combination with heavy metals, that the better immunity mobilizes. Healing process is an up and down, things get better, and immunity takes better competence to confront with old loads.

Both heavy metals and chronic infections, which get acute, influence the HPA-axis for several weeks. The worst thing in such phases is taking supplements: "did I take this supplement or did I not????

This could be a possibility, in this case you should consider taking something for treating infections, and taking binders for the toxins.

@jepps - that is wonderfully encouraging news for me, for us!

"old infections, mostly in combination with heavy metals" is me...and I was just wondering last night and this morning about whether to start a couple things I have on hand for Candida.

I had also meant to wait a short while longer after eating last night to take some bentonite clay before bedtime, but fell asleep before I had a chance.

I'm not using any other supplements at this time except for Kyolic garlic detox formula, a multi and some extra minerals. And sometimes ashwagandha for excitotoxicity.

 

[Sidereal]

Anyway, you talk of starvation and say that anything beyond a 5% weight loss is damaging. Why damaging? What have you read to make you say this? And why would this hold true for people who are not congenitally fat/metabolically challenged to begin with, but become that way only later in life, through bad lifestyle? Wouldn't you think that under the right conditions the body would want to go back to something approximating the original metabolism? That is my hope, BTW. That eventually, if I keep at it long enough and do not give in to the "evil", my body will allow me to go back to my original metabolism. Biggest if in this scenario being whether or not I've screwed my pancreas for good and all, or if they're just tired and can come back given the right diet/lifestyle strategies.

You are free of course to believe whatever you wish. The available evidence does not support the view that it's a matter of willpower just as ME/CFS isn't. I'm just trying to explain why the eventual relapse rate after successful weight loss is so high and this is based on the research of people whose work I linked to in the previous post. Columbia University, not exactly a bastion of non-conventional thought.

There are differences depending on what kind of obesity you have in terms distribution of fat (visceral fat is much much easier to lose than below-the-waist white fat), gender (men lose easier than women) and in terms of onset. As you point out, someone who gains 40 lbs due to crappy lifestyle later in life has a much better chance than the person who is constitutionally fat and gains a lot during childhood and adolescence.

But the main determinant of regain is the degree of adipocyte hyperplasia that has occurred during the initial weight gain and the subsequent periods of regain during the relapse phase of each dieting stint. Those almost always result in regaining of the initial weight + some extra change on top because when you start binging again after a period of starvation the pre-adipocytes get differentiated into mature fat cells and they stay with you forever demanding to be fed. So now you have more fat cells than you had before. They secrete leptin which signals to the hypothalamus what the situation is.

 

[Sidereal]

Could be more about the critters we're trying to balance in this thread.

I think so.

 

[Gondwanaland]

bifido longum should be feeded,

What feeds longum? I can't buy it locally, so I was thinking to feed my gut and hope that there is some longum there...

 

[Maia]

A few years ago I slowly lost 30% of my body weight and lowered my leptin levels as well as other inflammatory markers (CRP went from 6 to basically 0, for instance). Although my bloodwork looked amazing compared to before, my ME/CFS symptoms dramatically worsened and I ended up basically at death's door having previously functioned at a much higher level when I was in an objectively much more inflamed state.

Whatever your health improvement aim is now, shouldn't the weight (loss/stability) be only secondary? I mean you are right that the body and the gut bugs remember the previous treatment you exposed them to, and have their defenses ready, just in case.... Nobody likes to be hungry.

The adipose tissue had actually protected you before, right? Even the higher inflammation marker was protective, as it seems.

 

[jepps]

@jepps
"old infections, mostly in combination with heavy metals" is me...and I was just wondering last night and this morning about whether to start a couple things I have on hand for Candida.

As you took potato starch, the chance is great, that you detox candida (this showed my stool test). And as you had amalgame, there is the possibility, that candida is the root of the problem. I read a Sanum post, which described, that all dental infections from root canals and amalgame become fungi in the intestine. As teeth and candida have a correlation, this seems plausibel for me.
But to take potato starch, you must take enough fibres. A well adjusted package of fibres and RS detoxes candida the most.

@jepps
I'm not using any other supplements at this time except for Kyolic garlic detox formula, a multi and some extra minerals. And sometimes ashwagandha for excitotoxicity.

Ashwagandha is good for the HPA axis. I would not take garlic to long, max. for 1 month. Zeolite (bentonit) works as binder, and do not deplete bacterias.

 

[jepps]

What feeds longum? I can't buy it locally, so I was thinking to feed my gut and hope that there is some longum there...

@Gondwanaland all fibres feed longum.

 

[Sidereal]

The adipose tissue had actually protected you before, right? Even the higher inflammation marker was protective, as it seems.

Sure seems that way but protected from what?

 

[melamine]

A well adjusted package of fibres and RS detoxes candida the most.

@jepps - Really appreciate your insight and advice. Are some fibers recommended more than others if Candida and metals are a significant issue? (my high ones are mercury and cadmium)

I would not take garlic to long, max. for 1 month.

Any reason in particular to stop it altogether? I've been spreading doses out and have been taking 2/3 of a day's dose per day in three servings.

 

[Maia]

Sure seems that way but protected from what?

You tell me!

What if: more active immune system was after the source of some infection, dealing with it more or less successfully, perhaps... then you decided to lose weight, the immune system / the body / gut bugs felt threatened or lost the momentum, and that something bad was suddenly winning.

Some level of inflammation is needed, isn't it? To keep the enemy in the right distance.

 

[Sidereal]

You tell me!

What if: more active immune system was after the source of some infection, dealing with it more or less successfully, perhaps... then you decided to lose weight, the immune system / the body / gut bugs felt threatened or lost the momentum, and that something bad was suddenly winning.

Some level of inflammation is needed, isn't it? To keep the enemy in the right distance.

My thoughts exactly, Maia. And if Lipkin's latest study is any indication, we long-term ME/CFS patients have less inflammation than normal people. Not good when you have a chronic infection.

 

[jepps]

@jepps - Really appreciate your insight and advice. Are some fibers recommended more than others if Candida and metals are a significant issue? (my high ones are mercury and cadmium)

Pectine for metals, inuline, oligofructose, psyllium and potato starch for candida, mixed in equal parts. You could mix these prebiotics with zeolite/bentonite, beginning low and increasing very slow. If you have FODMAP´s, than we must search other fibres. FODMAP´s mean, that you have a very bad reaction to fruits like apples.

@jepps
Any reason in particular to stop it altogether? I've been spreading doses out and have been taking 2/3 of a day's dose per day in three servings.

I do not know, if it makes much sense, to promote the gut bacterias, but simultaneously treat the bacterias with garlic, unless you suspect SIBO. But it´s hard to imagine, that you have SIBO, when you could take such high doses of potato starch. If you do not have SIBO, but more SIFO, your predominant goal is to treat candida overgrowth via promoting the gut bacteria.

You could also consider low stomach acid.. It is very usual to have low stomach acid, and this could be another reason, why pathogenes pass the stomach. When the stomach is in an acid condition, then the pathogenes are destroyed in the stomach. Fermented foods make the stomach acid, otherwise HCL betaine with meals can help. Both means starting low, and increasing the dosage with caution.
Magnesium malat is another source to increase low stomach acid.

Low stomach acid makes symptoms like iron deficiency, chronic candida, adrenal fatigue, hair loss, dry skin, rectal itching, indigestion and constipation.

 

[Sidereal]

@adreno, given the recent Treg discussion here, I hope you don't mind me cross-posting this.

HPA axis exhaustion leads to accumulation of Tregs:

Vestn Ross Akad Med Nauk. 2011;(8):24-33.

[Regulatory T-cells: modern approaches to optimization of their numbers].

Pukhal'skiĭ AL, Shmarina GV, Aleshkin VA.

Abstract
Regulatory T-cells (Tregs) are important components of the complex adaptive system of the body responsive to environmental challenges. Tregs ensure peripheral tolerance and play an important role in control of inflammatory reactions. Several subsets of Tregs have been described. Naturally occurring CD4+CD25+ Tregs are recognized as a major subset of immune cells responsible for peripheral immune self-tolerance. Another subtype of Tregs is inducible. Such Tregs are generated in the periphery and realize their suppressive potential largely in the form of anti-inflammatory activity. The latter plays an important role in cooperation of three principal anti-inflammatory mechanisms that developed in the course of evolution: macrophages possessed of suppressive activity, Tregs, and stress hormones.

Normally, all the three mechanisms of inflammation control are in equilibrium. However, the balance may be disturbed with ageing due to repeated episodes of stress and HPA axis activation. As a result, secretion of stress hormones coupled to antigen overload leads to Treg accumulation. In the course of time activation of the HPA axis is replaced by its inhibition manifested both as a decrease of the baseline cortisol level and a reduction of stress-induced cortisol response. Cortisol present in blood at low concentrations is no longer capable of controlling inflammation and Tregs become a principal mechanism of anti-inflammatory machinery. Superfluous Treg accumulation results in the development of functional somatic syndromes, such as chronic fatigue syndrome, and (in some patients) in the growth of tumours resulting from the suppression of anticancer immunity.

On the other hand, the lack of adequate antigen loading in the childhood may delay Treg maturation. Allergy and asthma manifestations may be a consequence of such Treg insufficiency. Thus, both excess and deficiency of Tregs may be at the bottom of morbid conditions. The advances in modern pharmacology open up opportunities for developing new methods to control the Treg level.

PMID:21950132

 

[adreno]

@adreno, given the recent Treg discussion here, I hope you don't mind me cross-posting this.

Not at all, and here is one more article (same authors) that you may find interesting. I think it is also quite relevant to the treatment of gut dysbiosis.

Vestn Ross Akad Med Nauk. 2014;(7-8):30-7.

[Immune dysfunction and cognitive deficit in stress and physiological aging. Part II: New approaches to cognitive disorder prevention and treatment ].

Pukhal'skiĭ AL, Shmarina GV, Aleshkin VA.

Abstract

Long-term stress as well as physiological aging result in similar immunological and hormonal disturbances including hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal) axis depletion, aberrant immune response (regulatory T-cells, Tregs, and T(h17)-lymphocyte accumulation) and decreased dehydroepiandrosterone synthesis both in the brain and in the adrenal glands.

Since the main mechanisms of inflammation control, "prompt" (stress hormones) and "delayed" (Tregs), are broken, serum cytokine levels increase and become sufficient for blood-brain-barrier disruption. As a result peripheral cytokines penetrate into the brain where they begin to perform new functions. Structural and functional alterations of blood-brain-barrier as well as stress- (or age-) induced neuroinflammation promote influx of bone marrow derived dendritic cells and lymphocyte effectors into the brain parenchyma. Thereafter, mass intrusion of pro-inflammatory mediators and immune cells having a lot of specific targets alters the brain work that we can observe both in humans and in animal experiments.

The concept of stressful cognitive dysfunction, which is under consideration in this review, allows picking out several therapeutic targets: 1) reduction of excessive Treg accumulation; 2) supporting hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and inflammatory reaction attenuation; 3) recovery of dehydroepiandrosterone level; 4) improvement of blood-brain-barrier function.

PMID:25563002

 

[jepps]

Donna Gates about the fact, how to build up probiotics and prebiotics:

http://bodyecology.com/articles/too_much_fermented_food.php

To much probiotics: If you have to much diarrhea, constipation, gas and bloating or other symptoms, back off for awhile or reduce the amount you are consuming, then build up slowly.
You may experience symptoms of "die off," as the "bad guys" (candida, pathogenic bacteria and parasites) die and leave your body. These symptoms can include digestive pain like gas and bloating, headaches, flu-like symptoms and skin eruptions.

So: "die off" means gas and bloating, and to much probiotics and prebiotics means gas and bloating. Maybe we must find the tolerable limit. We can have symptoms, but when symptoms are untolerable, we shall cut back. A little gas or bloating is okay, to much gas or bloating means cutting back.

Are probiotics for everyone? According to Dr. Timothy Buie, MD (pediatric gastroenterologist), about 15% of people with autismcan't tolerate any type of probiotic supplements.
If you don't tolerate probiotics, it could be that you are already "over-fermenting" in your digestive tract.

If you are overfermenting, these things you can do in the meantime:
- Follow a good diet like PHD, Body Ecology Diet etc. without fermented vegetables
- Take prebiotics, that feed healthy microflora in your large intestine. This can encourage the "good guys" to colonize in your intestines to balance out the pathogens. Watch your body with any prebiotic, however, because it could also cause you to ferment too much if your body is overridden with pathogenic bacteria. If you experience same symptoms, like to much gas and bloating, with a prebiotic as you do with probiotics, you can back off and add it late
- Use digestive enzymes and HCl, they help your body digest and assimilate foods and fight pathogens.
- Take Saccharomyces boulardii, it can knock out clostridial infections (bacterial infections) and help control candida.
- Once you are tolerating probiotics, start slowly and add probiotics/cultured vegetables/drinks into your diet and see how you tolerate them.

 

[melamine]

@jepps - Thank you again for your very detailed reply. I don't feel as if I'm guessing so much anymore.

Based on what you said, I think I should skip the garlic at this time because I don't have indications of SIBO.

I believe I have low stomach acid/malabsorption (of the good stuff, not the bad), and have been using HCl/pepsin with some meals, but had gotten lax about using it when it ran low recently. I'm waiting for delivery of a new order and will make a point of using it more frequently.

From your Body Ecology link above:
>Eventually, you can work up to having a serving of cultured vegetables and probiotic liquids at every meal or possibly, as a between-meal snack.<

I eat a small amount of kimchi or dill pickles or fresh sauerkraut daily. I have to be careful with ferments because the form of glutamic acid they create can be neurotoxic for me, and add to the potentially neurotoxic nature of the detox therapies in general. The last time I came off an antibiotic I was eating small amounts of fermented foods in just that way - with nearly every meal and snack. I'm currently using smaller and less frequent amounts.

I get a LOT of gas with the potato starch but it's not a painful kind and I've experienced no uncomfortable GI symptoms when using it. I've cut it back to 2Tbsp. and will rebalance it now with the other things you suggested. I continue to have much improved bowel function since starting it, which has been a welcome benefit.

I have one cap left of a 60 Billion broad spectrum probiotic that I've rarely had a problem with, but in general, I find I'm less apt to experience bad effects by using low strength, well balanced probiotics, which is the kind I've been using more recently. I especially have to be careful with those strains that are immunostimulatory because of autoimmune tendancy. One of the probiotics I'm using now even contains individual strains in the millions instead of billions, but with the amount of prebiotics I'm using presently, they should be going much further(?), and having come off an antibiotic, I'm starting with a cleaner slate than usual, except for the Candida. I have another formula that contains 4 bifido strains only. I take 1-4 different ones at a time, of the 7 kinds I currently have, and have been taking them 2-3 times a day about 20-30 minutes before food.

 

[jepps]

@jepps

I get a LOT of gas with the potato starch but it's not a painful kind and I've experienced no uncomfortable GI symptoms when using it. I've cut it back to 2Tbsp. and will rebalance it now with the other things you suggested. I continue to have much improved bowel function since starting it, which has been a welcome benefit.

I have one cap left of a 60 Billion broad spectrum probiotic that I've rarely had a problem with, but in general, I find I'm less apt to experience bad effects by using low strength, well balanced probiotics, which is the kind I've been using more recently. I especially have to be careful with those strains that are immunostimulatory because of autoimmune tendancy. One of the probiotics I'm using now even contains individual strains in the millions instead of billions, but with the amount of prebiotics I'm using presently, they should be going much further(?), and having come off an antibiotic, I'm starting with a cleaner slate than usual, except for the Candida. I have another formula that contains 4 bifido strains only. I take 1-4 different ones at a time, of the 7 kinds I currently have, and have been taking them 2-3 times a day about 20-30 minutes before food.

When you do not have side effects from PS, I would not stop ist, but reduce it to a small amount in relation to the other fibres. Natasha Campbell writes in her book, that at least probiotics with 30 bio. are needed to see therapeutic effects, and as much several strains as possible. And I would consider saccharomyces boulardii or kefir.

Have a good evening!!! jepps

 

[Sasha]

I've been back on PS (4 tbsp/day) for several months and was getting some good improvement in my OI but two weeks ago, had a severe oesophageal spasm (commonly understood to be caused by acid reflux). Since then, I've had reflux every day.

I stopped the PS several days ago because I read Dr Norm Robillard's concerns that PS is bad for people with SIBO/GERD (in this very interesting article and a previous one, with much very interesting discussion):

http://digestivehealthinstitute.org/2014/03/24/resistant-starch/

I realise this isn't a new concern but for me it is: previously, I've had no indication of SIBO/GERD.

I'm scared I'm going to have to ditch PS, and lose the only improvement that I've had in my ME for a decade.

Chris Kresser argues that reflux is caused by h. pylori (exploiting and creating low stomach acid and producing gas that increases pressure in the stomach to force the lower oesophageal sphincter to open, allowing acid to spray into the oesophagus):

http://chriskresser.com/more-eviden...y-that-gerd-is-caused-by-bacterial-overgrowth

If so, it makes sense to tackle the h. pylori. @perchance dreamer kindly mentioned D-limonene for reflux and I've ordered some but I've been made nervous (nervous about everything, now!) about this statement by Norm Robillard:

I agree with your assessment that antibiotics in any form – synthetic, natural (recall that penicillin was originally derived from a mold, and aminoglycosides, vancomycin and erythromycin are produced by bacteria) and even herbal should not be the first line treatment for functional gut disorders. All antibiotics will result in collateral damage to our microbiota. Diet is, in my view, the least invasive and most effective way to modulate gut microbiota.

But my impression on reading (I'm still reading) is that fixing SIBO/GERD (if that's what I've got) by diet is a long row to hoe: and if it's caused by h. pylori then increasing stomach acid and maybe taking an antimicrobial (if that's how limonene works) is the way to go.

I'm desperate not to lose the improvement in my ME that PS has brought, so I want to get back to it as soon as possible: but something now is wrong with my gut and it needs fixing before my oesophagus gets too damaged and there's no way back.

Help!

Sorry for the long post - partly thinking out loud - but would be grateful for help in how to think about limonene and PS in this context.

 

[adreno]

Help!

You might want to try mastic gum. It has been shown in studies to be at least as effective as abx for treating h. pylori.