The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[South]

Here's 1 vote for starting a new topic for Sanum, instead of in this resistant starch thread. (as helpful as input has been on it, the reading load for new people would be easier i think if the two topics were in separate threads. Just my opinion though)

 

[jepps]

@South @Asklipia @ariel I am also the opinion, the RS-thread should not be mixed with Sanum, and a new thread should be started.

@jepps Do you take your resistant starch and fibers on an empty stomach, or with meals?
(and I'll repeat what someone else just said: your posts are very helpful to people with suspected candida / yeast / mold issues, thank you for your posts)

I take RS+fibres+probiotics several times a day, but on an empty stomach. As the taken probiotics shall increase in the gut, and Campbell writes in her book, with CFS we have low stomach acid, so the probiotics will survive in our stomaches. As I take magnesium malat (other take maybe HCL betaine) for increasing stomach acid with meals, I do not take probiotics with meals.

You all make me very happy with your friendly comments, thank you very much!There is a German forum, where I started a RS thread last summer. There are also many people with CFS, and we all make progress, thanks the informations of all the posts in this Phoenix rising-RS-thread.

@ariel there are very much protocols for Sanum on this homepage, and for several approaches here. My homoepath gave me the protocol, I posted in this thread. This is only for fungi. Dr. Enderlein claims, that all viruses and bacterial infections only develope, when we are infected with fungi (fungi always candida+mould, they act together). Fungi infection (because of bad diet or heavy metal toxicity) is always the primary infection and the root. This opinion fits well with what several other therapeuths claim (Donny Gates, Klinghardt etc.), so the therapy is only temporary healing, as long as fungi is not addressed, and addressing fungi does not mean killing fungi with chemicals, but fully heal the terrain.

The main sanum therapeutica are in the protocol, I posted in this thread for fungi, which is "relativley" cheap. Many other pleo sanum products are for making alkaline, b-vitamines, minerals, products for the citrat cycle, all products, which build up to have a good response to successfully treat fungi. All these basic protocols are better treated with all protocolls in Phoenix Rising, and which everybody here knows. Critical is the point, when viruses and bacterial infections come up with dying fungi, here Sanum has homoepathica for viruses and bacterial infections (streps, staph etc.). But they are only needed, when we have strong symptoms, and our immunity needs help for a certain viral or bacterial infections. There are many viral infections, where our immunity is able to respond well, but there are others, that are very hard for our body, and where we need certain supps for help.

So the therapy would be as follows, and so does my therapeuth: building up the body with RS+fibres+probiotics (this and methylation was my input for my therapeuth thanks Phoenix Rising). Then starting with sanum fungi supps, to fully treating systemic candida, mold and other fungi infections. Then, if symptoms are hard (this is earliest after 3 months of sanum, it takes time), viral and bacterial infections come up, and then herbs (olive tree extract or other, all, which do not harm to the gut bacterias) should be taken, or Sanum for viruses and bacterias should be taken. Simultaneously, for heavy metals and mycotoxins, binders should be used (zeolite or chlorella or...)

 

[Asklipia]

@South @Asklipia @ariel I am also the opinion, the RS-thread should not be mixed with Sanum, and a new thread should be started.

Done!
here
@jepps you could post there your former posts about Sanum and we when we contributed will post ours!
Asklipia

 

[Sidereal]

A commonly experienced side effect of RS and other prebiotics is joint pain and reduced joint mobility. I have had some modestly good results recently from Boswellia serrata though I'm still trying to figure out the optimal dose.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19091760

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sidereal @adreno
How is it going with the Japanese tablets? I haven't gotten mine yet.

 

[Sidereal]

@Sidereal @adreno
How is it going with the Japanese tablets? I haven't gotten mine yet.

Japanese Clostridium butyricum? I only took that one tablet so far; I've been so busy trying 100 others things lately that I haven't quite had the chance to study this yet.

 

[adreno]

@Sidereal @adreno
How is it going with the Japanese tablets? I haven't gotten mine yet.

Me neither.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Me neither.

I hope they don't put that weird description "quasi-drugs" on the customs form

 

[jepps]

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.at/2014/02/resistant-starch-panacea-but-why.html

Does Altered RS in Modern Bread Explain Gluten Intolerance?

The RS remaining in today’s superfine flour that is rapidly cooked into bread and other foods, may be very different from previous generations. Traditional hydration and exposure to fermenting microorganisms may have produced breads with higher levels of RS that contributed to healthier gut flora. Healthier gut flora would in turn produce less intestinal inflammation and a reduced response to gluten.

Maybe the modern quickly with germ bakee bread in opposite to the earlier over several days with sour dough baked bread contributed to our modern disease of loss of gut flora.

 

[alicec]

@whodathunkit afraidly I also did not test by Ubiome before starting RS+fibres. And yes, we must carefully reflect, what´s worth the price, and what´s not. But I will report, if it´s interesting, what Ubiome shows with taking RS+fibres, there is a thread in the PR.
Yes, I also And when we are at the end of the trip (in who knows in how many years), we receive our certificate (at least in staying patient)

I've been reading this thread for a couple of months but intermittently so I'm a bit late with this - also I haven't posted before.

I have done a uBiome test before starting RS and fibres etc (also a Genova GI Effects Stool profile) and plan to repeat the uBiome test in about 6 months time. Hopefully I will be able to report on changes in the gut microbiome of a person sick with CFS/ME, not just the worried well that we see on many of the blogs.

I didn't need to do the test to know that things are bad but it's good to know just how bad - so for example (cf average) 50% increase in Proteobacteria, more than 1000% loss of Actinobacteria, virtual disappearance of all the minor phyla, undetectable Lactobacilli, Bifidobacteria, Eschericia, Akkermansia, very low Roseburia and Ruminococcus - to name just a few of the highlights!

Although I have the impatience character fault and tend to leap right in, I did take notice of the adverse effects reported by many on this thread and started very cautiously. Glad I did because I'm one of those for whom a tiny amount of various fibres and select probiotics has a very powerful effect - usually adverse.

Since my first experiments with things like raw potato starch and psyllium, I have concentrated mainly on diet. I had been eating a very low CHO paleo diet which had once been helpful but no longer seemed to be. As I came to understand that I was starving the microbiota I gradually shifted to the PHD. I continue the abundant fibrous vegetables and moderate amounts of fruit that I have been eating for years, but now ensure that I eat resistant starch with every meal (cooked and cooled potatoes or rice, mung bean noodles or other pulses), shitake or oyster mushrooms 3-4 times weekly, small amounts of seaweed often, shiritaki noodles (ie konjac) often, green banana flour baked into a banana muffin almost daily, etc. For the first time in my life I have started eating sauerkraut daily.

I was already taking Prescript Assist or AOR 3 plus VSL-3 daily with no adverse effects but no apparently beneficial ones either judging by the gut analysis (no surprise I guess since I wasn't providing any food to encourage them to take up residence), but after reading the thread tried small doses of B. infantis and bifidum. Well that certainly produced an effect - more than I could cope with.

So I decided not to add concentrated fibres and new probiotics for a while until the inflammatory and lymphatic responses had settled to a tolerable level and I could judge the effects of the dietary changes. After about 2 1/2 months, these have been mixed but over-all positive. Firming and regularity of bowel movements (previously tended to loose-watery), improvement of PEM, virtual disappearance of OI (neither of these were my worst symptoms, but any improvement is good), some sleep improvement though still variable, frequent improvement of mood, happiness and optimism. However no change to fatigue and cognitive dysfunction (my worst symptoms). There has probably been an improvement in muscle pain but that has been replaced by lymphatic pain.

I am just cautiously starting to add more concentrated fibres and will soon try some different probiotics. I am tolerating the acetylated mannan polymer from aloe vera (just 1 Swanson's capsule every second day) and am going to try rotating tiny daily doses (say 1/16 or 1/32 tsp) of the various fibres mentioned here. Will report back on how this approach works in a sensitive person.

Finally can I thank everyone on this thread for sharing such an amazing amount of knowledge and personal experience. I have learned an enormous amount and as someone else commented, am hugely impressed with the quality of the discussion on Phoenix Rising.

Best wishes, Alice.

 

[jepps]

@alicec thank you for sharing your experiences and the Ubiome result. I am agog, what your next result shows, and would be glad, if you share this result also. I also will do so.
For proteus overgrowth there exists a sanum product with the proteus bacteria also for several other overgrowth bacterias.
I ordered Ubiome 2 weeks before, got a confirmation from Ubiome, but I didn´t yet receive the test. Do you know, takes it long to receive the result?

 

[Sasha]

I had an oesophageal spasm some days ago (so severe that I had to have testing to rule out a heart attack!) apparently brought on by acid reflux. The reflux has continued every day since, presumably, as I still have a sensation of burning in my gullet.

I've been taking RS + psyliium for about a year, and VSL3 for about three months.

Are these things likely to be related?

I've been prescribed protein pump inhibitors but am reluctant to take them because a recent study shows they reduce diversity in the microbiome, and I've had some slight but noticeable improvement in symptoms with my pre/probiotic regimen.

Wondering how to tackle this from a microbiome-preserving point of view, and whether anything I've done RS-wise has caused this.

I don't want to take this thread off-topic! I've started a thread about treatments and alternatives here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...me-not-to-take-protein-pump-inhibitors.36184/

 

[Sidereal]

I would discontinue the VSL3 and see what happens, @Sasha. Just a guess but it's the most recent thing you've introduced into your regime and it also contains lots of lactic acid producing bacteria which affect some of us here quite negatively.

 

[alicec]

@ariel thank you for sharing your experiences and the Ubiome result. I am agog, what your next result shows, and would be glad, if you share this result also. I also will do so.
For proteus overgrowth there exists a sanum product with the proteus bacteria also for several other overgrowth bacterias.
I ordered Ubiome 2 weeks before, got a confirmation from Ubiome, but I didn´t yet receive the test. Do you know, takes it long to receive the result?

@jepps It took about 5 weeks to get the results. It was even worse than getting 23andme results - I had to really work hard to understand what they meant and have so far managed only a partial understanding. uBiome provides limited information but there is still not a lot more to be found, even with delving deep into the scientific literature (I did this to some extent but my poor brain has limited capacity at the moment).

For your information, and anyone else who is interested, I will upload my analysis so far plus a comparison with the PCR component of the Genova GI Effects stool test. I tried to summarise all the info I could find though did run out of puff somewhat. Still it might be helpful to others - and of course I will report on the next test when I repeat.

Thanks for the info about the Sanum product - I am intrigued by your previous posts about Sanum and realise that I will have to consider this at some point. While the Genova stool test didn't culture any fungus, a Genova ION Profile at the same time showed very high values for urinary D-arabinitol. As far as I can find, this marker is specific for Candida, so I presume I am likely to have the deep-seated Candida problem that you have discussed.

With best wishes
Alice

 

[jepps]

Wow, thank you, @alicec for posting your result, I will post it also, when available, to compare the result with you. Your next test after taking RS+prebiotics will be interesting for all of us to.

This side might be intesting for interpreting the Ubiome gut bacterias. You have all bacterias available in yout gut, no one is depleted, so each strand can be feeded and therefore increased. It is more difficult to settle the bacterias, when a single or more strand is fully depleted, and the appendix is removed, because in the appendix is a DNA-copy of each strand. So with weeding (Sanum or herbs), seeding (probiotics, dirt, fermented foods, SBO´s) and feeding (prebiotics, RS and diet) we can settle our gut flora with time.

Sanum fits well to weeding: they have the most important strands of bacterial overgrowth available. In these products are real bacterias, but the healthy one, not the pathogene one (overgrowing always means the bacteria got pathogene). In weeding the pathogene forms, there is place in the gut for the seeding bacterias, and with feeding the healthy forms can grow.

 

[Sidereal]

Incidentally, to anyone interested in the blood sugar control angle of straightening out your gut, my first morning glucose this morning was 79. That's as low as it's ever been since first started monitoring it 6 - 7 years ago. Before today the lowest it's ever been was mid-80's.

Two and half months ago it was *179*.

Full disclosure: I've also been doing intermittent fasting for the last couple/few weeks...started that about the same time I started the bolus dosing. So that's probably helping blood sugar, too, but I credit a large portion of the improvement with addressing the gut via pre- and probiotics.

Any updates on this, @whodathunkit?

 

[jepps]

@jepps As far as I can find, this marker is specific for Candida, so I presume I am likely to have the deep-seated Candida problem that you have discussed.

With best wishes
Alice

@alicec I need more likes for your post, one is to less. Thank you very much for the attached interpretation of the Ubiome test results I will complete it, as far as I found some information, and post it, too.

What do you do for your undetectable bifidobacterium longum? Dr. Grace posts, when these are depleted, they are depleted by candida overgrowth. So it will be interesting, if addressing candida, and feeding well with fibres and RS will increase bifido longum with time.

Addressing candida alone is to little. Candida depletion leaves gaps in the gut, and the gaps must be filled with healthy bacterias, unless candida will fill the gaps again. We must the whole time simultaneously:

- weed: addressing candida
- seed: taking SBO´s, fermented foods (if possible because of histamine), probiotics, dirt
- feed: feeding the gut flora and the probiotics from diet and dirt

 

[alicec]

This side might be intesting for interpreting the Ubiome gut bacterias.

This post from Grace Liu might be misleading about what to expect from a uBiome analysis which is essentially a big picture thing. It tries to look at the totality of the bacterial population but only as far down as the genus level. Part way through Grace's consideration of an individual uBiome analysis, she launches into a discussion of four specific proteobacterial species which she implies are in this individual's gut, though if you look closely there is a "probably" in the introductory sentence.

This data could not have come from uBiome. "Probably" suggests to me that she has read some research study which did analyse these species and is extrapolating. It reminds me again why I find her so irritating. She does have a lot of interesting info on her blog and does read widely but her hypotheses and theories quickly get stated as established fact and it is difficult to tell where one starts and the other finishes.

Anyhow, as far as I am aware, there are only two PCR-based tests available which give some insight into the species level. One is the Genova test which has a very limited range (listed in full in my post above) and the metagenomics stool analysis (MSA) test from Red Labs in Belgium which I believe looks at up to 100 analytes. I haven't considered the latter test since I thought it unlikely that I could get my sample from the east coast of Australia to Belgium within the 3 day time period specified. Still it looks like an excellent test, albeit expensive.

Thank you @jepps for your input on weeding, seeding and feeding. After my initially bad experiences I am proceeding cautiously, but realise that all these must be tackled eventually.

With best wishes
Alice

 

[ariel]

Wondering if anyone here has reached significant amounts of daily fibre yet, AND has noticed an increase in their energy levels?

 

[jepps]

Wondering if anyone here has reached significant amounts of daily fibre yet, AND has noticed an increase in their energy levels?

@ariel I increased my daily fibres up to an amount of 3 tsp potato starch, and 9 tsp fibres in addition to RS and fibres from diet. I have better energy, but not very much, I assume 10-20% more energy for physical activities. There are times with low energy, and times with better energy, but in summary it increases.
The most important aspect for me is excreting fungi, and ongoing processes.