The immunological inconsistency in the IDO trap theory

Nuno

Nuno

Senior Member
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112
Hip said:
The main antiviral for HHV-6 and cytomegalovirus used by ME/CFS doctors is Valcyte. Some patients have done well on this. There is also cidofovir and foscarnet, which may be stronger, but these must be given intravenously.

There are some reports of artesunate have some antiviral effects against these viruses, but it is likely only a weak antiviral.

A new drug which target cytomegalovirus only is letermovir, but this is extremely expensive, and I have not heard of it being used in ME/CFS as yet.



When I looked at supplements and drugs which might have possible antiviral effects for ME/CFS viruses, I did not find much. However, my calculations suggest that very high dose genistein might be potently antiviral in vivo against cytomegalovirus. I found a few other supplements have mild antiviral effects against cytomegalovirus (like Terminalia chebula and monolaurin); see this post.
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Why do you say Artesunate is a weak antiviral, if the HHV6 foundation and this study mention it has very good potency? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354218306570?via=ihub
 
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
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18,109
Nuno said:
Why do you say Artesunate is a weak antiviral, if the HHV6 foundation and this study mention it has very good potency? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354218306570?via=ihub
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Can you provide a link to the page where the HHV6 foundation say that artesunate is a potent antiviral, I'd like to read what they say.

The study you cited says that artesunate is broad spectrum, rather than more potent.

I've not come across any ME/CFS patients who have made substantial improvements on artesunate on ME/CFS forums; you might like to search PR, as there were people trying this drug many years ago.


And based on in vitro studies, some pharmacokinetic calculations I did showed that artesunate is very weak.

My calculations showed that whereas Valcyte has a potency factor of around 4000 for herpesviruses, and Valtrex has a potency factor of around 4000 for EBV, artesunate only has a potency factor of around 20 for herpesviruses.

However, in vitro antiviral studies only measure the antiviral effect of a compound, and not any immunomodulatory effect the compound may have. As we know, substances can fight viruses by a direct antiviral effect, but also sometimes may fight viruses by boosting the immune response against the virus.

So it is quite possible that artesunate might have immune stimulating effects against herpesviruses, even if its antiviral effects are next to nothing.


There is some evidence artesunate fights HHV-6 and cytomegalovirus in human in vivo single case studies. Refs: 1 2 But note these are single patient studies. Also, rat studies showed oral artesunate reduces viral levels. Ref: 1


After artesunate intravenous injection, plasma artesunate and its active metabolite dihydroartemisinin half-lives are < 15 and 60 minutes, respectively. Ref: 1

But Dr Cheney's dosing is artesunate 50 mg three times a week. Ref: 1 So maybe its effects last longer than its half life.


Artesunate is available to buy as a non-prescription item: Hepasunate.
 
Nuno

Nuno

Senior Member
Messages
112
Hip said:
Can you provide a link to the page where the HHV6 foundation say that artesunate is a potent antiviral, I'd like to read what they say.

The study you cited says that artesunate is broad spectrum, rather than more potent.

I've not come across any ME/CFS patients who have made substantial improvements on artesunate on ME/CFS forums; you might like to search PR, as there were people trying this drug many years ago.


And based on in vitro studies, some pharmacokinetic calculations I did showed that artesunate is very weak.

My calculations showed that whereas Valcyte has a potency factor of around 4000 for herpesviruses, and Valtrex has a potency factor of around 4000 for EBV, artesunate only has a potency factor of around 20 for herpesviruses.

However, in vitro antiviral studies only measure the antiviral effect of a compound, and not any immunomodulatory effect the compound may have. As we know, substances can fight viruses by a direct antiviral effect, but also sometimes may fight viruses by boosting the immune response against the virus.

So it is quite possible that artesunate might have immune stimulating effects against herpesviruses, even if its antiviral effects are next to nothing.


There is some evidence artesunate fights HHV-6 and cytomegalovirus in human in vivo single case studies. Refs: 1 2 But note these are single patient studies. Also, rat studies showed oral artesunate reduces viral levels. Ref: 1


After artesunate intravenous injection, plasma artesunate and its active metabolite dihydroartemisinin half-lives are < 15 and 60 minutes, respectively. Ref: 1

But Dr Cheney's dosing is artesunate 50 mg three times a week. Ref: 1 So maybe its effects last longer than its half life.


Artesunate is available to buy as a non-prescription item: Hepasunate.
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This is where I got the information from https://hhv-6foundation.org/research/hhv-6-antiviral-drug-resistance , check the Table 1 on there.

Sadly I couldn’t find any report on this Forum for Artesunate either oral or injection! It’s frustrating.

Do you think Oral vs IM/IV would affect the pharmacokinetics of the compound?
 
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
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18,109
Consul said:
Study from january 2022 that has been mentioned on this forum earlier.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1348-0421.12966
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I saw that paper before, though it's not a very well designed study, since it only gave these antivirals for 3 months, and we know from Dr Lerner's studies that Valtrex and Valcyte only begin to start working at the 3 to 4 month stage, and they take about a year or more to achieve full benefits.


I wonder whether the benefits of artesunate in that study might also come from its ability to inhibit Staphylococcus biofilm?
 
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