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Artesunate - Cheney dosage and benefits

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Daisymay, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    Hi I am very keen to try artesunate but would like to know if anyone knows the dose that Cheney is suggesting for treatment.

    Also if anyone is finding artesunate to be of help and if so in what way.

    Thanks,

    BW,

    Daisymay
  2. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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  3. consuegra

    consuegra Senior Member

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    dosage

    I believe Cheney follows the general dosage instructions for malaria. Five initial days of artesunate capsule and then taking it twice a week (no more than this). He also combines a related artesimin called Wormwood. This is taken swish and spit on alternate days to the Artesunate, for three days a week. Artesunate is not without its side effects.

    Chris
  4. citybug

    citybug Senior Member

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    Which comes first the gels or artensunate? In the notes I've seen from Cheney's talk it wasn't clear, the treatment was listed in 2 different orders. Are the gels or anything like them available anywhere? Thanks.
  5. citybug

    citybug Senior Member

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    Reading about the artensunate gave me an aha, maybe all the antioxidants that I'm taking are allowing virus to prosper, since I am doing worse. I thought Cheney's talk about oxygen problems meant the opposite, thought it meant we have too many free radicals generated by illness process, but artesunate appears to create free radicals to kill the viruses. I'm confused. I'm on supplements chosen by transdermal testing.
  6. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Confusion


    lol, welcome to the club, many of us are confused :)
  7. minimus

    minimus

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    I am a Cheney patient. I have not seen him since early in the year, prior to the XMRV study, but at that time he was recommending that I take one capsule of artesunate (sold as "hepasunate" by hepalin.com...can also be bought from Guilin Pharmaceuticals in China, but apparently is the subject of a tremendous amount of counterfeiting in Asia) on Tues & Thurs mornings and one capful of wormwood solution (from Mediherb) on Mon, Wed & Fri mornings. Don't take either on Sat. & Sun. He recommends that both be taken sublingually (not swallowed) out of some concern that artemisinins can cause drug-induced hepatitis if taken for a prolonged period. For me, sublingual means basically swishing the stuff around in my mouth and gargling with it and then spitting it out after a few minutes. Fair warning, the wormwood solution tastes truly foul and needs to be diluted with water to about 1/3 strength. I am not exactly sure why Cheney recommends taking these artemisinin-related compounds only 5 out of 7 days each week, but this has often been his protocol for treatments that he thinks have immune-modulating or anti-microbial properties. (For example, his protocol for Isoprinosine/Inosine used to be the same, 5 days on, 2 days off.)

    I have found this protocol to be helpful in reducing fatigue and flu-like symptoms. It is not a miracle cure, of course, but I definitely feel more fatigued on Saturdays and Sundays when I am taking neither the artesunate nor the wormwood solution.
  8. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    Artesunate

    For what it's worth, my doctor put me on artesunate for 4 months last year - 4 a day, can't be sure of the strength - may have been 20 mg.

    No change.

    Jenny
  9. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    thanks guys

    Thanks to everyoe for the replies, sorry I am so slow in replying, brainlapse...forgot I'd asked the question!!!!!

    BW,

    Daisymay
  10. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    I just heard this about artesunate dosing from Dr. Cheney.

  11. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    Cheney update

    Thanks very much for that Cort, that is encouraging. Can you please tell me what PO stands for and also do people swallow the artesunate or merely hold in the mouth for so long and then spit out?
  12. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    artesunate dosing

    Hi, PO means orally--I assume swallowing--as distinct from swish and spit for the wormwood elixir--how long you swish is a personal decision! Liver function should be monitored, though--I suspect that doing the routine for say 3 weeks and then taking a week off would be a good idea just to be safe. I think the source for the worwood elixir is actually Medi-Herb, though iHerb may have it too. I have discovered that Artesunate (hepasunate) is available in the US and will try to get some (I am in Canada)--it does seem a better antiviral than artemisinin. Best, Chris
  13. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    PO

    Thanks Chris re: PO and the other info, appreciated.
  14. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    those arteseminins...

    Hi, fans of the artemisinins, there is an interesting review article on these substances: Thomas Efferth et al, The Antiviral Activities of Artemisinin and Artesunate, available on the web at this link: 1. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=ncbi.nlm.nih.gov--then click on the "full text PDF" tab and you will get the whole thing.
    I shall give a few quotes, but think the whole thing is worth reading if you are going to try one of these (I am following my own advice!). They appear to have some activity against cancer cells; artemisinin is largely metabolized by P-450 enzymes, meaning that there is considerable possibility for drug interactionsfor instance, many statins are metabolized through this pathway, leading to the dangers of combining them with grapefruit or even pomegranate.

    There can be side effects: mild and reversible hematological and electrocardiographic abnormalities, such as neutropenia and first-degree heart block, have been observed infrequently. Neurotoxic effects have been repeatedly reported in experiments with mice, rats, and dogs....

    A longer exposure time to a lower peak blood concentration of an artemisinin is more neurotoxic than a shorter duration of a higher peak blood concentration ....

    However, long experience shows that they are generally safe, and though ataxia, slurred speech, and hearing loss have been reported in a few patients treated with artemisinin ..( at levels up to 500 mg orally), artesunate seems considerably less toxic ( I must get some!).

    Artesunate inhibits in vitro replication of a good many viruses, including HCMV. This activity can be enhanced by the addition of ferrous iron in the form of Ferrosanol. Second, the antiviral activity of artesunate is additive in combination with conventional drugs, such ganciclovir, cidofovir, and foscarnet. It was demonstrated in vivo in a rat CMV model.

    Finally, Artesunate has been observed to have activity against HIV-1"; this of course does not show that it is active against our new friend XMRV, but one can certainly hope, and Cheneys report of success with it may depend partly on just this.

    Anyway, if you are going to use either of these wormwood derivatives, reading this article is well worth the little time it takes; it has a good bibliography, which I have not yet explored. And take note of the possibilities of negative side effects; as nearly always, anything powerful enough to do some good may also do some harm. Note the advice about pulsing, and it really would be advisable to work quite closely with a doctor. Now to get me some artesunate....and a cooperative doctor.

    Best wishes, Chris
  15. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    Artesunate paper

    Thanks Chris, very interesting, especially the HIV info though aas you say we can't assume it will work for XMRV but did Cheney not say at one point that he thought it would work against XMRV?

    V good to have such a paper to show my doc.

    I vaguely remember something about iron being bad for promoting some biochemical pathway which can increase oxidative stress, something Cheney and Rich mentioned, oh wish I could remember.....but then again if artesunate is so good at correcting the redox problems then maybe that isn't a problem, the one negates the other.

    BW,

    Daisymay
  16. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    artesunate--we're on!

    Hi, got me some Artesunate--will try one 50mg capsule every three days, missing one every fourth week to give my liver a brief sabbatical--somwhere between Cheney's original schedule and his new one, playing safe. And will swish and spit a Wormwood elixir on the off days. Will begin tomorrow--expect a report in say 6 weeks or so--feel optimistic- Ha!). Best, Chris.
  17. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Chris & Others - artesunate


    Hi Chris,

    Congrats on getting the artesunate - I now have some too that I got from a friend of mine who sees Cheney. She is actually doing the dump 1/2 capsule in mouth, rinse and spit with the artesunate - as well as the wormwood. Not sure why she is not personally going with the swallowing of capsules - could be she is very sensitive to stuff so that is what was recommended to her.

    Anyway, I am going to go with the rinse and spit method as well since I am very sensitive to meds/herbs too. I have already gotten some help from inosine and am anxious to add this to the protocol.

    Good luck!

    Maxine
  18. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    swishing / swallowing

    Hi, Maxine--thanks for the info. Since I understand that the point of swishing and spitting is to allow some direct infusion of the active ingredients into the blood stream, bypassing the stomach and liver and making life easier on the latter, I think I shall do both--swish the contents of the capsule, hoping for some direct infusion, and then swallowing to make sure I get the rest. I think on a 3 day schedule my liver should be able to handle this--will see. Best, Chris
  19. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Chris


    Hi Chris,

    Sounds like a good game plan. I am going with the 3 day schedule too, just swishing once a day. Did that this morning - so far so good.

    Keep us updated,

    Maxine
  20. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    twitpic.com/photos/SlayaDragon
    Artesunate

    A couple of questions:

    1. What is the theory for how artesunate works?

    I do understand that it's supposed to shift the system from a more oxidizing to a more reducing environment, thus making viruses and other pathogens less able to reproduce and decreasing the "oxygen toxicity."

    But HOW does it do this?

    Considering the emphasis that Cheney is putting on the gut, might it "just" be as a result of getting parasites, etc. under control?

    I've looked through his site pretty carefully (including the slides and A/V) and can't find the answer.


    2. In what ways does artesunate differ from artemesia?

    I decided to try a bit of artemesia starting about a week ago. It does feel like there's something happening in my intestines too.

    I've been doing major detox (of all kinds of stuff) over the past two years, in conjunction with mold avoidance. It's extraordinary just HOW much bad stuff has been released from my body. This is especially shocking considering that prior to trying Rich van K's protocol shortly before then, I never even suspected that toxins were an issue for me. This crap does not want to come out unless the body is free of mold exposures, I am quite sure.

    SO anyway, I've been having hangover symptoms on a continual basis (meaning for a good chunk of most days) this whole time. That seems to have gone away to some extent since starting the artemesia. I wonder if cleaning out my gut might be allowing the toxins to move through more easily? That doesn't sound unreasonable. I wish I'd done it a long time ago, if so.

    There aren't too many Cheney patients around these boards, but I thought I'd ask anyway in case anyone has more info. ANd I'm going to ask Dr. Guyer in a couple of weeks too. He usually has a good handle on this kind of stuff.


    Thanks!


    Lisa

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