Quercetin for cytomegalovirus (CMV / HCMV) dosage?

[Inez]

Hi could anyone tell me the dosage of quercetin to use against cytomegalovirus? I've only found this study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7287991/ and its unclear how many mg or g to use...unless the brain fog and, lets face it, lack of science smarts is stopping me seeing the answer

I have a confirmed active cytomegalovirus infection and severe ME (3 years).

 

[Hip]

Unfortunately as far as I can see, quercetin is not going to have much effect against cytomegalovirus when you take it orally.

The study you linked to is performed in vitro, in a cell line in a test tube, and they found a certain concentration of quercetin when place in the test tube is antiviral for cytomegalovirus.

But by a quick pharmacokinetic calculation that I just performed now, it would not be possible to achieve the same concentration in the blood by normal oral dosing.

The trouble with quercetin is that it has a very low oral bioavailability of just 1%, so when you take quercetin 99% is lost in the gut to begin with. Then to make matters worse, quercetin has a high plasma protein binding of 99%, meaning that 99% of the quercetin that actually makes it into the bloodstream binds to proteins in the blood, and becomes inactive (so it is also lost).

So this is why quercetin is an effective antiviral in vitro, but not in vivo.



Some ME/CFS doctors prescribe the drug antiviral Valcyte to treat cytomegalovirus, but sadly you won't get this on the NHS in the UK. And it is really expensive anyway, around $14 a day; and typically patients take it for around a year. And it does not work for everyone either.

But there are cheaper and more accessible treatments to look at, such as vitamin B12 injections (or better, B12 transdermal oils), and LDN.

 

[Inez]

Thanks very much for working that out and explaining it.
I found a UK doctor that prescribes Acyclovir which I've been on for two months but yes, he won't prescribe Valcyte. Do you know if Acyclovir has any antiviral activity against cytomegalovirus at all?

I have tried LDN and B12 patches, separately, in the past but find both too stimulating on my nervous system and I got insomnia, irritability, anxiety and generally feeling like i've had loads of caffeine. I'd be willing to try these again though if they work specifically against cytomegalovirus. Is that what they do?

I'm trying monolaurin to see if that helps as it has in the past. The other natural antiviral I was interested in was Geum japonicum because of this statement in this study 'Geum japonicum-extract was similar to that of the intraperitoneal administration with 2 mg/kg/day of ganciclovir in increasing the body weight of infected mice and reducing the virus (CMV) yield in the lungs'. this https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9465682/ but again, i'm wondering if this applies to humans how much to take.

Why is CMV so bloody difficult to treat? its so frustrating

 

[Hip]

Do you know if Acyclovir has any antiviral activity against cytomegalovirus at all?

Acyclovir and its prodrug Valtrex don't work for cytomegalovirus or HHV-6; the only herpesviruses acyclovir works for are EBV, VZV and herpes simplex.

I'd be willing to try these again though if they work specifically against cytomegalovirus. Is that what they do?

I don't believe LDN or B12 have any direct antiviral effects.

I'm trying monolaurin to see if that helps as it has in the past. The other natural antiviral I was interested in was Geum japonicum because of this statement in this study 'Geum japonicum-extract was similar to that of the intraperitoneal administration with 2 mg/kg/day of ganciclovir in increasing the body weight of infected mice and reducing the virus (CMV) yield in the lungs'. this https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9465682/ but again, i'm wondering if this applies to humans how much to take.

I looked at that paper in some detail a few years ago. The two herbs which worked the best in that study were Geum japonicum and Terminalia chebula, with the former being slightly more potent than the latter.

The mouse dose used in the study was 250 mg/kg of the herbal aqueous extract, given three times a day. By my calculations, the equivalent human dose would be 2 grams of the dried herbal powder three times a day.

I actually tried Terminalia chebula at this dose in a short term test for my own active cytomegalovirus infection, but did not notice much. However, when Valcyte is used to treat cytomegalovirus in ME/CFS, it takes about 3 months for the first benefits to manifest, and a year or more to see the full benefits. So this suggests that you would have to take Terminalia chebula for a similarly long time in order to see any benefits. I only took it for a short time.

Terminalia chebula medicinal herb is easy to find online, and you can buy it more cheaply in bulk powder rather that capsules (although it's a very bitter taste, so capsules would be better). Geum japonicum is hard to find.


But to put things into perspective, the study you linked to determined a certain equivalence between these herbs and the antiviral drug ganciclovir (Valcyte is the prodrug of ganciclovir). Using this equivalence, I was able to calculate that:

Terminalia chebula 2 grams three times daily is equivalent of Valcyte 22 mg once daily.

Now the normal doses of Valcyte taken in ME/CFS are 900 mg daily, so the to get the equivalent antiviral effect with this herb, you would have to take 81 grams of Terminalia chebula three times daily!

That is a ridiculously high dose of the herb, which might not be safe to take. So it shows that it's hard to match the antiviral power of Valcyte unless you take extremely high doses of Terminalia chebula.

You could consider experimenting with normal doses of Terminalia chebula (normal doses I believe are up to 6 grams per day), to see if that helps. But bear in mind the antiviral effects of Terminalia chebula are quite modest in comparison to Valcyte.

You can buy Valcyte at prescription-free overseas pharmacies, but you still need a doctor's assistance, as when you take this drug it requires regular checkups with your doctor, as it can sometimes cause serious adverse effects.

I bought some Valcyte myself from a prescription-free pharmacy, but unfortunately found it worsened my mental symptoms, so had to stop.

Why is CMV so bloody difficult to treat? its so frustrating

The infections in ME/CFS are typically very slow to respond to antiviral drugs. Antivirals usually work in a matter of weeks for regular infections, but for the infections believed to be causing ME/CFS, it can take many months to even begin to see benefits.

Some researchers do not even believe that the high viral antibody levels found in ME/CFS actually represent an active infection. They suggest that there are no active infections underpinning ME/CFS, and that these high antibody levels are just the immune system malfunctioning.

So there is some controversy as to whether these assumed infections in ME/CFS are really the issue. Having said that, a number of people on this forum have responded to Valcyte, so it can be helpful.

See these threads:

Which standard ME/CFS treatment protocols have you tried, and which led to major improvements?

List of ME/CFS Recovery and Improvement Stories

 

[Hip]

Regarding acyclovir/Valtrex for cytomegalovirus:

Some studies suggest high-dose valacyclovir (Valtrex) or famciclovir (Famvir) are effective for CMV, with 2000 mg of Valtrex or Famvir equivalent to 450 mg of Valcyte. Refs: 1 2 3 4 5

By contrast the Merck Manual says acyclovir/Valtrex has minimal activity against CMV.


So although officially by the Merck manual acyclovir or Valtrex have little effect against CMV, some studies suggest otherwise.

@heapsreal is one ME/CFS patient on this forum with active cytomegalovirus who finds Famvir helps. So it's possible that your cytomegalovirus ME/CFS might improve with acyclovir, but I would not place too much hope in it.

 

[heapsreal]

Regarding acyclovir/Valtrex for cytomegalovirus:

Some studies suggest high-dose valacyclovir (Valtrex) or famciclovir (Famvir) are effective for CMV, with 2000 mg of Valtrex or Famvir equivalent to 450 mg of Valcyte. Refs: 1 2 3 4 5

By contrast the Merck Manual says acyclovir/Valtrex has minimal activity against CMV.


So although officially by the Merck manual acyclovir or Valtrex have little effect against CMV, some studies suggest otherwise.

@heapsreal is one ME/CFS patient on this forum with active cytomegalovirus who finds Famvir helps. So it's possible that your cytomegalovirus ME/CFS might improve with acyclovir, but I would not place too much hope in it.

My experience with valtrex waz it didnt do much at all where famvir i got improvement in blood work and symptoms. But one has to be committed to several months of treatment to feel better.
The first few years i did well on 250mg twice a day then to 500mg twice a day and where im at now

 

[Inez]

Thanks so much @Hip for going out of your way to figure that out! Its taken some of the stress out of figuring out the next option for me. I think the thing to do is persevere with Acyclovir and try other antivirals further down the road if nothing comes of it. Its good to know I can access them from abroad if I need to. Thanks

 

[Hip]

Thanks so much @Hip for going out of your way to figure that out! Its taken some of the stress out of figuring out the next option for me.

Like you I was looking for substances that might fight viral infections, and spend years looking through studies on antiviral supplements, herbs and off-label drug, but never really found much, unfortunately.

I taught myself a bit about pharmacokinetics (the way a drug or substance distributes in the body), so that I could calculate the potency of antivirals in vivo, when they are taken orally.

One of my pharmacokinetic calculations showed that the supplement genistein at really high doses (eg 2000 mg daily) would have some reasonable effects against cytomegalovirus. I may try that at some point. Swanson sell a high dose genistein supplement (125 mg per capsule), and taking 2000 mg of that daily would work out to about £2 per day. But I expect you would have to take this for at least 3 months to even begin to see improvements.


When I perform a calculation to convert the in vitro antiviral potency of an antiviral substance into the in vivo potency, I get a figure I call the Potency Factor, which quantifies the antiviral effect of a substance when taken orally.

Here are some of the Potency Factors I calculated for cytomegalovirus, for various substances:

Antiviral Potency Factor Against Cytomegalovirus:

Valcyte 900 mg once daily, Potency Factor = 4410
Letermovir 480 mg once daily, Potency Factor = 10152
Genistein 10,000 mg once daily, Potency Factor = 3813

Genistein 2000 mg once daily, Potency Factor = 763
Terminalia chebula, 3 grams twice daily, Potency Factor = 297
Monolaurin 2000 mg three times daily, Potency Factor = 125
Butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT) 250 mg four times daily, Potency Factor = 100

Letermovir is a potent new antiviral drug for cytomegalovirus, but is insanely expensive.

As you can see, unfortunately the supplements fall short of the antiviral power that pharmaceutical antivirals have.

 

[Hip]

Have you been tested for enteroviruses by the way (coxsackievirus B and echovirus)?

In the UK, we don't have the right lab tests for these: Dr John Chia found that it's only at antibody tests using the neutralization method of antibody detection that are sensitive enough to detect the chronic enterovirus infections found in ME/CFS.

There is one lab in Germany, and another in Greece, which offer coxsackievirus B antibody test by neutralization.


It may be worth testing for enterovirus, as Dr Chia has a treatment for that, the herbal extract oxymatrine, which boosts the immune response, and sometimes leads to major improvements in ME/CFS patients with active enterovirus infections. Oxymatrine you can buy online without prescription.

You can also try oxymatrine even without being tested for enterovirus. Oxymatrine is not advised in patients who have a personal history or family history of autoimmunity though.

 

[Inez]

Wow that's so incredibly helpful, thank you @Hip. Very interesting to learn about Genistein. Is it the possible estrogenic effects that have kept you from trying it until now? Trying something like that at such a high dose would worry me but I know that as time goes on i'm more likely to take the risk if there's a chance it'll help.

Do you know the antiviral potency factor of Famvir and Acyclovir against Cytomegalovirus? I know you said they didn't have much action against it but I am just wondering how they compare against things like monolaurin.

I've never been tested for enteroviruses but I had seen Oxymatrine mentioned on this forum before. I have a history of recurrent EBV or tonsilitis (it was never determined), shingles, and apparently cytomegalovirus so I am pretty certain viruses have something to do with my ME. I had active EBV for the last time in 2012 and I ended up with a chronic sinus inffection in my maxillary sinus. I've been told I need surgery to clear it becuase of scar tissue and inflammation stopping it leaving. Steroids and all other sinus sprays can't touch it because its blocked off by scare tissue. After seeing Bhupesh Prusty's findings on how bits of virus in one area of the body can send a message around the whole body causing extensive mito fragmentation, i'm wondering if theres actually EBV in my maxillary sinus thats causing this. I didn't have an active infection on my last EBV blood test ayear ago but it seems that these viruses don't need to be seen as clinically active to be causing mitochondrial fragmentation? Either way, I desperately want to get rid of this sinus infection but am too ill to have the surgery right now. I'd be very nervous about surgery causing me to get worse. But a part of me wonders whether clearing the sinus would clear up my ME.

 

[Hip]

Is it the possible estrogenic effects that have kept you from trying it until now?

You can apparently get some slight breast development in males from the estrogenic effects of extremely high genistein doses, though I am not too concerned with that (assuming it is reversible).

I should really try genistein, but there are several reasons why I haven't so far:

First I am a little skeptical that even at these high doses of 2 grams daily, genistein might not be powerful enough, because it is weak compared to Valcyte.

Although increasing the genistein dosage further should proportionally increase its Potency Factor. So for example, doubling the genistein dose from 2 to 4 grams will double its Potency Factor. And an extremely high genistein dose of 12 grams daily should in theory have the about the same antiviral potency as 900 mg of Valcyte daily.

I found a study where they used extremely high doses of genistein, 12 grams daily for 2 years, and there were some non-serious adverse effects in some people (including slight breast development in 2 males), but otherwise the trial went OK, and genistein was deemed safe at this high dosage.

But it would be expensive, as the Swanson genistein source I mentioned works out to around £1 per gram. You can get it cheaper on Aliexpress.com, though, with bulk genistein powder at around $0.40 per gram.

Of course this is all theory, as nobody has tested high dose genistein as a cytomegalovirus antiviral in vivo. My calculations suggest it would work, but the proof is in the pudding.


Second, I have two active viruses: coxsackievirus B4 and cytomegalovirus. Targeting just cytomegalovirus may not do much unless I can also target CVB4. But the usual treatment for coxsackievirus B used by Dr Chia, oxymatrine, unfortunately did not work for me. CVB4 I am pretty sure was the virus that triggered my ME/CFS, so this virus may be the main problem for me.


Thirdly, unfortunately I tend to lose interest in treatments unless I see benefits within a month or two at the most. And with antiviral treatment for herpesviruses in ME/CFS, clinical experience shows you really need to commit for a year, and will probably will not even begin to see benefits for 3 or 4 months. If I knew beforehand that taking high dose genistein would result in major improvements, then sure I would commit to it. But when it's just a speculative theoretical idea that it might help, then it's harder to keep faith.

Also, even with Valcyte, it's touch and go whether it will work for you; it works for some patients but not others. So even if genistein were an effective antiviral in vivo, you still have to be luck for it to work for you, because the infections in ME/CFS are very resistant to treatment, it seems. There are theories as to why this is, such as Dr Lerner's abortive herpesvirus infection theory.

I keep meaning to post a thread about this possible genistein treatment for cytomegalovirus ME/CFS, to alert other forum members about it. But really need to write up all my antiviral calculations first, so that my analysis is well documented for scrutiny by others.

Do you know the antiviral potency factor of Famvir and Acyclovir against Cytomegalovirus?

Yes, they both have a pretty poor performance for cytomegalovirus:

Famvir 1000 mg four times daily, Potency Factor = 10
Valtrex 1000 mg three times daily, Potency Factor = 108

Note that Valtrex converts into acyclovir in the body, and Valtrex 1000 mg four times daily is equivalent in efficacy to acyclovir 800 mg five times daily. Ref: here

Given this poor performance, it's not clear why some in vivo studies (like the ones I referenced above as 1 2 3 4 5) found Valtrex and Famvir effective for cytomegalovirus. Although those studies were actually about CMV infection prevention, rather than treating active CMV infection. Maybe that makes a difference.

It could also be that the in vitro studies that I used to calculate the Potency Factor used a strain of cytomegalovirus which was more resistant to Valtrex and Famvir. Sometimes you find an antiviral is potent for one strain of a virus, but weak for another strain of the same virus. So it can depend on which strains they use in the in vitro studies.

I ended up with a chronic sinus inffection in my maxillary sinus. I've been told I need surgery to clear it becuase of scar tissue and inflammation stopping it leaving. Steroids and all other sinus sprays can't touch it because its blocked off by scare tissue.

There are accounts of fatigue improving after sinus surgery; see this article:
New Study Shows Sinus Surgery Can Improve Chronic Fatigue


Don't know if it will help (given your maxillary sinus is blocked), but I devised an "advanced" method of nasal irrigation that gets more saline into the sinuses, in order to clean out infections/toxins: see this post.

 

[Hopeful2021]

Thanks so much @Hip for going out of your way to figure that out! Its taken some of the stress out of figuring out the next option for me. I think the thing to do is persevere with Acyclovir and try other antivirals further down the road if nothing comes of it. Its good to know I can access them from abroad if I need to. Thanks

Monolaurin is helpful
So many ppl benefit
I partnered it with emu oil and did great for about 3 months.
Have you ever tried Ozone ten pass therapy. It's something i will be trying and then following with a long course of monolaurin.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Like you I was looking for substances that might fight viral infections, and spend years looking through studies on antiviral supplements, herbs and off-label drug, but never really found much, unfortunately.

I taught myself a bit about pharmacokinetics (the way a drug or substance distributes in the body), so that I could calculate the potency of antivirals in vivo, when they are taken orally.

One of my pharmacokinetic calculations showed that the supplement genistein at really high doses (eg 2000 mg daily) would have some reasonable effects against cytomegalovirus. I may try that at some point. Swanson sell a high dose genistein supplement (125 mg per capsule), and taking 2000 mg of that daily would work out to about £2 per day. But I expect you would have to take this for at least 3 months to even begin to see improvements.


When I perform a calculation to convert the in vitro antiviral potency of an antiviral substance into the in vivo potency, I get a figure I call the Potency Factor, which quantifies the antiviral effect of a substance when taken orally.

Here are some of the Potency Factors I calculated for cytomegalovirus, for various substances:

Antiviral Potency Factor Against Cytomegalovirus:

Valcyte 900 mg once daily, Potency Factor = 4410
Letermovir 480 mg once daily, Potency Factor = 10152
Genistein 2000 mg once daily, Potency Factor = 763
Terminalia chebula, 3 grams twice daily, Potency Factor = 297
Monolaurin 2000 mg three times daily, Potency Factor = 125
Butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT) 250 mg four times daily, Potency Factor = 100

Letermovir is a potent new antiviral drug for cytomegalovirus, but is insanely expensive.

As you can see, unfortunately the supplements fall short of the antiviral power that pharmaceutical antivirals have.

Thanks again for linking me to this thread @Hip, it's very fascinating.

I just read a bit about genistein and saw mention of it potentially worsening/increasing risk of breast or prostate cancer by inducing BRCA gene expression, as mentioned in this article.

I also can't seem to find as cheap a source as you mentioned - the cheapest for me seems to be Axenic on Amazon, who sell 100 g for $160 aud.

I found an Indian supplier on ebay that sells a 20:1 extract of terminalia chebula at a good price (1 kg for $180). I'm not sure if this type of extract would be suitable, or if they supply a desirable quality, however. I'll look into it a bit more.

It seems like something affordable that you can just easily add to a daily supplement regimen (without causing cancer or any of the other nasty effects that valcyte can have) could be a good strategy. What do you think?

 

[Hip]

It seems like something affordable that you can just easily add to a daily supplement regimen (without causing cancer or any of the other nasty effects that valcyte can have) could be a good strategy. What do you think?

I tried Terminalia chebula myself at 1400 mg daily for about a month, but did not notice much. I have active cytomegalovirus and coxsackievirus B4. However, one month is a very short time in terms of antiviral treatment for herpesviruses.

I wanted to try Valcyte, but unfortunately I get mental health side effects when I take it (this happens to me with many drugs).


According to my calculations, genistein taken at a high enough dose would be a potent antiviral for cytomegalovirus, potent enough to rival Valcyte. If you were to take 10,000 mg daily, this would have a potency factor of 3813, which is about the same as Valcyte. The antiviral effect of most substances is usually proportional to dose.

But this would be expensive, as the cheapest jar of genistein I can find is Swanson Soy-Free Genistein, which costs $12 for 125 mg x 60 capsules, and contains a total of 7,500 mg of genistein in the jar. So you would need at least a jar a day to start getting an antiviral effect to rival Valcyte.

Aliexpress sell bulk genistein powder cheaper, around $1 a gram or less, but you have to be careful with fakes, as a lot of substances sold on Alibaba and Aliexpress are fake.


EDIT: I just realized I said all this already above! I am repeating myself!

 

[GlassCannonLife]

I tried Terminalia chebula myself at 1400 mg daily for about a month, but did not notice much. I have active cytomegalovirus and coxsackievirus B4. However, one month is a very short time in terms of antiviral treatment for herpesviruses.

I wanted to try Valcyte, but unfortunately I get mental health side effects when I take it (this happens to me with many drugs).


According to my calculations, genistein taken at a high enough dose would be a potent antiviral for cytomegalovirus, potent enough to rival Valcyte. If you were to take 10,000 mg daily, this would have a potency factor of 3813, which is about the same as Valcyte. The antiviral effect of most substances is usually proportional to dose.

But this would be expensive, as the cheapest jar of genistein I can find is Swanson Soy-Free Genistein, which costs $12 for 125 mg x 60 capsules, and contains a total of 7,500 mg of genistein in the jar. So you would need at least a jar a day to start getting an antiviral effect to rival Valcyte.

Aliexpress sell bulk genistein powder cheaper, around $1 a gram or less, but you have to be careful with fakes, as a lot of substances sold on Alibaba and Aliexpress are fake.


EDIT: I just realized I said all this already above! I am repeating myself!

Haha yes you did, all good.

Sounds like 1400 mg of terminalia chebula is very low, I wonder if more would have helped? 6-10 g daily or so?

Again, I wouldn't necessarily expect it to help short term but more catch cells as they become lytic - have you looked into this transition much? It seems much better studied in the context of EBV.

If you have an actual active CMV infection then you might need to tackle it with valcyte.. Did you try 450 mg daily? It might be more tolerable.

I saw mention of G-CSF reactivating latent infections. I wonder if high dose short term valcyte with something like this would be a potential strategy? It boosts neutrophil numbers, however, and Valcyte already increased mine to outside the normal range at a dose of 450 mg daily for 3 months. This was a bit paradoxical, as it apparently normally induces neutropenia in people.

 

[Hip]

Sounds like 1400 mg of terminalia chebula is very low, I wonder if more would have helped? 6-10 g daily or so?

Yes, you could try more and see what happens. The calculated Potency Factor of 297 is based on 6 grams daily.

However, I should mention that calculation contained some guesstimates, so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

For the genistein, I was able to find precise pharmacokinetic data to use in my calculation, but for Terminalia chebula, this pharmacokinetic info was not available, so I had to make some guesses. Thus the actual potency of Terminalia chebula could be say five times less than the figure shown (which would make it a poor antiviral), or 5 times more (which would make it quite strong).

If you have an actual active CMV infection then you might need to tackle it with valcyte.. Did you try 450 mg daily? It might be more tolerable.

Even with Valcyte 450 mg daily I had side effects, unfortunately.

The nature of the herpesvirus infection in ME/CFS is not known. We know some patients like me have chronically high cytomegalovirus IgG antibodies (which infectious disease specialists will just ignore, and call it a past infection).

What that high IgG means is unclear. Dr Lerner proposed the herpesvirus infections in ME/CFS were an unusual form of infection called an abortive infection, which does not produce viral particles but lives inside cells. Abortive infections are not the same as a latent infection.

Standard antivirals like Valcyte have no direct effect against abortive infections, which could explain why it takes a year to respond to these antivirals. In regular (productive) viral infections, patients respond within weeks. There is a research group looking into the role of herpesvirus abortive infections in ME/CFS.


I understand that Stanford stopped using antivirals to treat ME/CFS after Montoya left, which I think was due to their low success rate. So when trying antivirals for herpesvirus-associated ME/CFS, I think it is only on an outside chance that it might help.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Yes, you could try more and see what happens. The calculated Potency Factor of 297 is based on 6 grams daily.

However, I should mention that calculation contained some guesstimates, so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

For the genistein, I was able to find precise pharmacokinetic data to use in my calculation, but for Terminalia chebula, this pharmacokinetic info was not available, so I had to make some guesses. Thus the actual potency of Terminalia chebula could be say five times less than the figure shown (which would make it a poor antiviral), or 5 times more (which would make it quite strong).





Even with Valcyte 450 mg daily I had side effects, unfortunately.

The nature of the herpesvirus infection in ME/CFS is not known. We know some patients like me have chronically high cytomegalovirus IgG antibodies (which infectious disease specialists will just ignore, and call it a past infection).

What that high IgG means is unclear. Dr Lerner proposed the herpesvirus infections in ME/CFS were an unusual form of infection called an abortive infection, which does not produce viral particles but lives inside cells. Abortive infections are not the same as a latent infection.

Standard antivirals like Valcyte have no direct effect against abortive infections, which could explain why it takes a year to respond to these antivirals. In regular (productive) viral infections, patients respond within weeks. There is a research group looking into the role of herpesvirus abortive infections in ME/CFS.


I understand that Stanford stopped using antivirals to treat ME/CFS after Montoya left, which I think was due to their low success rate. So when trying antivirals for herpesvirus-associated ME/CFS, I think it is only on an outside chance that it might help.

Thanks Hip, great post as always!

Yes I wonder how much high IgG titres signify simply a type of immune system phenotype (many people that don't have CFS have high IgG response to certain viruses), or if they are influenced either by those abortive style infections, or simply by a very high load of latent cells, flicking into a lytic state more frequently than in the general population.

May I ask if you have adrenal issues? When I overexert, I seem to predominantly develop symptoms of adrenal insufficiency along with PEM etc. I don't have any pain with me ME but I do fulfil the official ME criteria as discussed on that other thread.

I heard that CMV can become resident in the adrenal glands and wreak havoc in that way. I haven't had IgG titres quantified but I tested very high to CMV on the Arminlabs T cell IFN-g EliSpot test (reactivity of 28, greater than 3 being a "positive" result).

 

[Hip]

May I ask if you have adrenal issues?

Not as far as I know.