Red and near-infrared light therapy, LEDs

[Hip]

That, and possibly using the light for too long on any part of your body. As well as I recall from all my research, anything over 20 min's, MAX, on any one part of the body will reduce, then totally wipe out, any beneficial effect.

That's a good point. I've never really calculated what sort of light dosage I get.

Let me calculate the actual infrared light dose I receive, and compare it to the dose that @Johannes gives himself daily (you can ignore my calculation below, and go to the final line of this post):

I place my infrared illuminator spotlight about a meter or so from me, because it creates a narrow beam (they are sold as nighttime security spotlights). So I place the illuminator at a distance so that it illuminates my whole head and torso area.

My infrared illuminator takes 3 watts electrical power. LED light efficiency is something like 30%, so we can assume about 1 watt of actual light output from my illuminator. If that light output is spread over say 0.5 square meters, then that bathes my body in around 0.4 mW/cm2 of infrared light.

Compare that to the 80 mW/cm2 that @Johannes uses for 20 minutes each day. His light is thus 200 times stronger than mine.

So in order to get the same daily light dose as he receives in 20 minutes, I would have to use my infrared illuminator for 200 times longer, that is, 200 x 20 = 4000 minutes = 66 hours.

But I probably only get around 10 hours illumination a day.



So it looks like I am getting about 7 times less of a daily infrared light dose than @Johannes. That's maybe why I did not notice much from my infrared experiments.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Let me calculate the actual infrared light dose I receive, and compare it to the dose that @Johannes gives himself daily (you can ignore my calculation below, and go to the final line of this post):

This made my poor little head hurt ..... and kind of throb ...

I couldnt follow it, so I'll take your word .....

And now I'm going to grope around for an Aleve ....

 

[Johannes]

I thought it would be interesting to compare the light power of your unit to the light power of sunlight, in the red and near infrared range. Sunlight at sea level provides around 0.1 mW/cm2 across each nm wavelength of visible light (see this graph).

I have seen other comparisons concerning especially red and near-infrared light from the sun. I can't find them now. But it is important to know that any radiation from the sun is six times higher in equator than it is here in Finland. So for example Australia and Spain receive six times more UVB radiation than Finland. This is due to inclination of the earth towards the sun.

I also remember reading especially about red and near-infra red light from the sun, that one gets 30-40mW/cm2 in equator which would mean roughly 5-6,6mW/cm2 in Finland (plus other wave lenghts). This would mean that I get lots more radiation from my LEDs compared to the sun, which would let me to believe, that I get something more from the sunlight which I don't get from my PBM unit. OR that human cells of a CFS patient need longer exposure like I get from the sunshine. OR both. I have planned to stand further from the LEDs which would mean less powerfull radiation but then I would illuminate also lower parts of my legs below the knees. It would mean lowering the radiation to around 40mW/cm2.

So I believe that one gets something more from the sunshine. That is why I plan to make my own UVB PBM unit. I will try to buy narrowband UVB light bulbs. They are normally sold to hospitals and other health care units for their enzema treatment units but I may be able to buy them. One could buy a ready made unit but they are quite expencive.

Here is just an illustration of such a unit: https://www.daavlin.com/physicians/products/7-series-panel-units/

These kind of units would cost around 2000-4000 euros! The light bulbs cost something like 100 euros each and I need 8 to 10 of them. I calculated it would cost me appr. 1400 euros to make my own 10 bulb unit. My friend is and electrician and he promised to help me to build this unit.

I am quessing that getting vitamin D is not the only benefit from UVB. So I think that instead of artificial injectable vitamin 3D, UVB radiation would provide me something extra. It is also possible that one would benefit more from lower dosage of UVB for longer time during day than these high bursts. These lamps are providing so much radiation that one can burn oneself in 2 to 4 minutes treatment. But still, their radiation is way less than what you get from the red and NIR light LEDs.

My bowel has become more sensitive towards foods. My quess is that this is due to the fact that I get less sunshine. Less sunshine and with less radiation as we go closer to winter. This would indicate that red and NIR radiation is not the only radiation helping my cells and my CFS I may need blue and green LEDs and UVB lamp. It would also mean that even if my vitamin D injections have helped a lot, most of the help has come from the sun. My vitamin D dosage was risen up last July and not a small amout by any means. My dosage is now 250 micrograms a day.

 

[Hip]

@Johannes have you considered stopping your light treatment for a few weeks, to see if your symptoms worsen again? And then restarting treatment, to see if your symptoms again improve?

It can be informative to stop a treatment which you think might be helping for a few weeks, to see if your ME/CFS gets worse. If it does get worse, it suggests the treatment was working. Then when you restart the treatment, and you start improving again, it gives you a clearcut demonstration of the efficacy of that treatment.


Also, have you considered for a time just applying the red/infrared light to your torso, but not head, and again observing whether this changes your symptoms. It could be that it's only the light going to your head which is providing a benefit, whereas the light that goes to the rest of your body might not be doing anything. Or vice versa.

 

[Johannes]

I have stopped my treatment for summer, because I get all I need from the sunshine. I have used my PBM device approximately five days in each month during summer, from the beginning of June to the end of August and felt better than for years.

 

[Hip]

I have stopped my treatment for summer, because I get all I need from the sunshine.

If you find this light therapy only is helpful in the dark winter months, have you considered you might have seasonal affective disorder (SAD), also called winter depression, which is caused by the lack of light in winter?

People with SAD respond well to extra light in the winter provided by SAD lamps.

 

[Hopeful2021]

I'm really liking red light for my brain.
Doing more red light therapy than in past.

 

[Hopeful2021]

I have seen other comparisons concerning especially red and near-infrared light from the sun. I can't find them now. But it is important to know that any radiation from the sun is six times higher in equator than it is here in Finland. So for example Australia and Spain receive six times more UVB radiation than Finland. This is due to inclination of the earth towards the sun.

I also remember reading especially about red and near-infra red light from the sun, that one gets 30-40mW/cm2 in equator which would mean roughly 5-6,6mW/cm2 in Finland (plus other wave lenghts). This would mean that I get lots more radiation from my LEDs compared to the sun, which would let me to believe, that I get something more from the sunlight which I don't get from my PBM unit. OR that human cells of a CFS patient need longer exposure like I get from the sunshine. OR both. I have planned to stand further from the LEDs which would mean less powerfull radiation but then I would illuminate also lower parts of my legs below the knees. It would mean lowering the radiation to around 40mW/cm2.

So I believe that one gets something more from the sunshine. That is why I plan to make my own UVB PBM unit. I will try to buy narrowband UVB light bulbs. They are normally sold to hospitals and other health care units for their enzema treatment units but I may be able to buy them. One could buy a ready made unit but they are quite expencive.

Here is just an illustration of such a unit: https://www.daavlin.com/physicians/products/7-series-panel-units/

These kind of units would cost around 2000-4000 euros! The light bulbs cost something like 100 euros each and I need 8 to 10 of them. I calculated it would cost me appr. 1400 euros to make my own 10 bulb unit. My friend is and electrician and he promised to help me to build this unit.

I am quessing that getting vitamin D is not the only benefit from UVB. So I think that instead of artificial injectable vitamin 3D, UVB radiation would provide me something extra. It is also possible that one would benefit more from lower dosage of UVB for longer time during day than these high bursts. These lamps are providing so much radiation that one can burn oneself in 2 to 4 minutes treatment. But still, their radiation is way less than what you get from the red and NIR light LEDs.

My bowel has become more sensitive towards foods. My quess is that this is due to the fact that I get less sunshine. Less sunshine and with less radiation as we go closer to winter. This would indicate that red and NIR radiation is not the only radiation helping my cells and my CFS I may need blue and green LEDs and UVB lamp. It would also mean that even if my vitamin D injections have helped a lot, most of the help has come from the sun. My vitamin D dosage was risen up last July and not a small amout by any means. My dosage is now 250 micrograms a day.

there is Nitric oxide benefit from getting light therapy too.
You can get a small UVB sun lamp. It doesn't have to be that giant seven panel one you put in the link.
I like to combine my small UVB sun lamp and a red eye or a bulI like to combine my small UVB sun lamp and a red IR bulb.
Vitamin D from the sun has been key to my recovery. It's great that you were doing light and vitamin D supplementation. Hopefully you can return to a normal life soon.

 

[flailingaround]

PBM makes the skin less likely to burn if you use it before going out into the sun. I don't know if there's long term effect. I suspect there might be some. My skin tolerates a lot more sun now than it did years ago. Not from PBM, but from regular sun exposure.

 

[Johannes]

If you find this light therapy only is helpful in the dark winter months, have you considered you might have seasonal affective disorder (SAD), also called winter depression, which is caused by the lack of light in winter?

People with SAD respond well to extra light in the winter provided by SAD lamps.

I don't have SAD. It has been tested with professionals. I bought two years ago a medical SAD light therapy lamp and tested it for two months. It didn't help.

My situation has changed. Sadly, now I can feel the effects of less sunshine. It is fall here in Finland. We get one day sunshine a week and it is too cold to be outside wearing T-shirt. And the sun is too far to give enough light anyway. Because of this my bowel doesn't tolerate as versatile diet anynore than in summer. I get intolerance symptoms. Also, I feel a bit tired every now and then and my muscles hurt a bit just because of some small staf I do. Muscle recovery is not as good as it was in summer. I can do a bit less physical activities now compared to summer and I feel a bit depressed too. These symptoms started when I hadn't had my sunshine for a week or so. I didn't use PBM lamp.

I waited a couple of weeks without sunshine and then started my usual dosage of PBM. Durong that two weeks it become clearer that the symptoms are due to less sunshine. They became a bit worse. The first three days I felt a bit tired and a bit nausiated because of PBM. This was not new to me, but I was surpriced that I felt it only after two weeks without the sun. After three days the side effects stopped. Now I have been having my PBM for a week. But, unfortunately PBM doesn't help me as much as the sunshine. There is something else in the sunshine than just red and near-infrared light, that help me. And I bet, the cells would need that something else for more than 20 minutes a day.

But I still feel pretty good. Better that in the most of the summer of 2019.

I feel sad because I had such a wonderfull summer and now this. We will winterize our sail boat at the end of this month. We had the luxury of having a cleaning person twice a month (provided by our city because of my sickness) to clean our home but now that we can't live in our boat a few days after the cleaning of the house, we will have to cancel her. It would be too risky because of covid-19. She cleans for so many people, maybe for potential covid patiens too. This is unfortunate because if I am unable to do any homework this winter, we would really need her help.

We spent more than 70 days at the sea.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

In a month or so, I will try medical grade narrow band UVB photo therapy.

You TOTALLY read my mind .... I was going to suggest that, in conjunction with the red/nir to see if it might be the missing element ....

If UVB doesn't help, I will buy blue and green light PBM lamp

And again, you beat me to it.

There are also light systems with red/nir/blue/green/yellow/amber light spectrums, with each spectrum specific to particualr functions of sunlight .... maybe take a look at those as well?

but now that we can't live in our boat a few days after the cleaning of the house, we will have to cancel her. It would be too risky because of covid-19. She cleans for so many people

It's incredible how deep this virus digs into our lives .... but I agree, it's too big a risk for you and your SO right now ....

Sad. I know how much having a sparkling clean home lifts the spirits.

I know, because I can't manage that anymore, either ...

We spent more than 70 days at the sea.

That sounds both lovely and incredibly health-promoting.

Try to focus on being able to repeat that pleasure again next summer? I know. Doesn't do squat for right now, but it is a helpful carrot to hold out in front of the long dreary winter.

And the additional light spectrums could help too, so all is not lost ....

And the fact that in spite of having back-slid in the absence of full-spectrum sunlight, you're still better than you were if not as good as in the summer is also good. Goodish. Gooder.

I'm going to stop now ....

 

[Johannes]

"There are also light systems with red/nir/blue/green/yellow/amber light spectrums, with each spectrum specific to particualr functions of sunlight .... maybe take a look at those as wwell"

If you know any, could you put a link here?

"Try to focus on being able to repeat that pleasure again next summer? I know. Doesn't do squat for right now, but it is a helpful carrot to hold out in front of the long dreary wwinter"

No it doesn't do, but when you mentioned that, it made me smile and that felt good

"And the additional light spectrums could help too, so all is not lost ...."

Hopes up!

"And the fact that in spite of having back-slid in the absence of full-spectrum sunlight, you're still better than you were if not as good as in the summer is also good. Goodish. Gooder."

You're right. I am going to hold to that. (Is that even english). What I mean is, I am going to cherish these memories and dreams about the previous and becoming summer and try to enjoy what I still have....Goodish, I think

 

[Hopeful2021]

@Johannes
What a delightful trip.
I just did 6 sessions of a large red light table by light stim.
40 min.
They have a face professional grade too.
I did that for 30 min before the table.

Such great benefits.
The trick with red light is TIME.
The layers are like a champagne glass fountain.
Each layer needs to be filled up before the bext layer gets benefits.

As for the sun.... our cell receptors kind of move with it. Or at least there's a ten min "ready state" so even with a uvb lamp, do two sessions. One can be much much further away to prep.

Also kaatsu increases Nitric Oxide nicely.
Red light on tongue with nasal breathing only!!! will also too.

The Light Stim table is $56,000 us
Their face pro on a stand is $2800
Their home very small units $300
But its the AMBER lights that make the table unique

You can get red light with amber on ebay or amazon easy. I know you're not in usa... so I don't know the online stores you have access to. Sorry.

Tomorrow if my gambling fortune arrives, I would buy that light stim table in ten minutes. No hesitation. One's skin is very very close to the light source... after the third day, thats when I saw the strength benefits.
I have small LED red light but it doesn't work as good.
I'll be DIY some variation soon.

I'm thinking of spending a week in the sunshine in Mexico but ideally Panama City to keep my sun exposure. It's been best year for me too in getting sunshine and recovery.

 

[Hopeful2021]

@Johannes
You could ask your cleaning person to do nitric oxide cleaning of her sinuses.... 10 min kills viruses.
Because I'm out and about 2-3 times a week at my doctors, I've started this. Not as strict about it. But will be as winter comes.
Also get a nebulizer electric and food grade hydrogen in case you do test positive.
Zinc, Nac, glutathione, copper .... being in ketosis... all these things can help if you do get it.
I got it early and did UVB and IR bulb. No one knew what it was. I'm so very happy that I didn't know. I was coincidentally getting high dose vitamin C IV and NAD IV. So it wasn't a big awful thing. Plus i was fasting.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

If you know any, could you put a link here?

Will do, as soon as I have time .... voting season is here, and our ballot is about 10 pages long, filled with people running for positions on everything from the courts to dog catcher, and unlimited ballot measures that require more thought and research than I can comfortably bring to it .... since I'm voting by mail, need to get it done and in as soon as I can.

The there's the issue of my crappy filing system for old reserach.

But yes, I absolutely will get back to you with whatver options I was smart enough to add to file .... I think there are several ...

You're right. I am going to hold to that. (Is that even english).

It absolutely is, and I totally understood you.

Goodish, I think

I think so too.

I know how disheartening it is to lose benefits that seem irreplaceable, but in your case, they're just being postponed, and your attitude is stellar !!!

 

[Johannes]

@Johannes
You could ask your cleaning person to do nitric oxide cleaning of her sinuses.... 10 min kills viruses.
Because I'm out and about 2-3 times a week at my doctors, I've started this. Not as strict about it. But will be as winter comes.
Also get a nebulizer electric and food grade hydrogen in case you do test positive.
Zinc, Nac, glutathione, copper .... being in ketosis... all these things can help if you do get it.
I got it early and did UVB and IR bulb. No one knew what it was. I'm so very happy that I didn't know. I was coincidentally getting high dose vitamin C IV and NAD IV. So it wasn't a big awful thing. Plus i was fasting.

Too risky to have this cleaning even with nitric oxide. If my wife gets the disease, she propably dies. That is her doctor's opinion. I am unable to use any supplements because of my chemical intolerance. I also have very strict diet.

So, how often do you take these 40 min PBM therapy sessions?

 

[Hopeful2021]

Too risky to have this cleaning even with nitric oxide. If my wife gets the disease, she propably dies. That is her doctor's opinion. I am unable to use any supplements because of my chemical intolerance. I also have very strict diet.

So, how often do you take these 40 min PBM therapy sessions?

@Johannes
I took the sessions once a day.... for 5 consecutive days.
I'm getting amber led bulbs in the mail and will add them to my DIY ( do it yourself) assembly of different lights I have.

But I'm doing this Biocharger device now too. So maybe it will be all that i need to get 100 percent.

That's sad about your wife. So sorry to hear.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

That's sad about your wife. So sorry to hear.

I agree .... dealing with this crabby little mean-spirited @ss-kicker of an illness is a full-time, draining occupation. I cant imagine how much worse it would be with the added considerable concern and worries for a loved-one's well being as engendered by the current COVID crisis ....

 

[Johannes]

I have to copy this This is us finns

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I have to copy this This is us finns

...

I think it can describe Norwegians as well, tho perhaps without as much justification .... this is based on my long term observations of my Norwegian husband, DB ....