Red and near-infrared light therapy, LEDs

dreamydays

Senior Member
Messages
169
Likes
300
Location
United Kingdom
Hiya @Johannes , and it's soooooo good to hear from you again, altho I'm irritated that I had to stumble across this thread by accident. So much for the 'Watch' function :meh::meh: :bang-head::bang-head::bang-head:.

Even better than just hearing from you, which would have been good enough all on its own, is knowing that you're doing so well with your sunshine cure, and that you were able to deduce what might help, and it actually did !!!! It gives hope to all of us ....

Thank you so much for your detailed, info-full post too, and for the video on the Finnish coast, about which I knew next to nothing .... it was lovely !!!

I totally agree, and am hard-pressed to figure out what the pooh-poohers are thinking .....

Am still doing research myself, there are soooo mnay units available that it's really hard for me to parse thru the pros and cons of each. Plus there's that pre-purchase buyer's remorse thing (What if I chose the wrong one :nervous::nervous::nervous: :bang-head::bang-head:).

Which unit did you order, and if that's pushing the boundaries, just ignore the question, yes?
Hi, I am in the UK, so less choice so I chose this https://carelamps.com/collections/red-light-therapy/products/derma-red-p300-red-light-therapy-device

It all depends on your budget really, if it works I will look at a larger unit. I found this comparison really useful if I am thinking of upgrading

The guy obviously is on commission but to be fair he goes through the pros and cons of each.

You can never push the boundaries with me. I am fighting to help all of us out of this toxic disease. I would have been sceptical about these lights, it's not really my thing. However the the amount of good quality evidence is very strong. If they don't work act quickly and send them back for a refund.
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
Ok, so I had to wait for blood tests. Now I know why I lost a lot of my energy.

I have crohn's disease. Certain foods has caused me earlier pain in the bowel and inflammation. And sometimes fever. I thought that I can eat more freely because I didn't get stomac and bowel pain. It is clear now that to some degree I can, but even if I don't have these symptoms of food sensitivity, I still get bowel problems. I now have a pretty bad bowel inflammation and because of that I have lost weight. Six kilograms in three months. Although I do pretty physical things, this weight loss is more than should have happened because my muscles are growing at the same time.

This inflammation causes me fatique as so many times in previous years. But this time I don't get fever anymore. Well that is good after all. But I am hungry all the time. It seems that I don't get all the nutrients and energy from my food because I have so bad inflammation in my bowel. This is actually quite normal if one has crohn's.

So I changed my diet a bit and feel a little bit better already. The bowel heals itself mostly in two weeks but I have been invited to a garden party, where I can see my friends that I haven't seen for months because of coronavirus. The weather is going to be nice. There we will drink beer and do bbq. This is this saturday. That is not helping this situation. But after that I radically reduce foods which cause my bowel problems and also try to drink less alcohol. I should be in better shape in no time.

Then we will head back to the sea in a week, where we stay as long as the weather is nice. With a new solar panel in our boat we can have refrigerator on without going into quest harbours to charge batteries and we can now spent more time in the wild nature. The solar panel also provides power for the diesel heater. We have to go to quest harbours, shopping once a week though.

I will write again in a couple of weeks.
 
Last edited:

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
16,439
Likes
35,450
@Johannes, I'd be interested to get a brief summary of your results with red and infrared light therapy, if I may.

You found red/infrared light therapy may have improved your ME/CFS. Can I ask, on the ME/CFS scale of: mild, moderate and severe, where were you before the light therapy, and where did you end up after the therapy?

Did the red/infrared light therapy allow you to move up 1 level on this scale (eg, move from moderate to mild ME/CFS)? Or perhaps just move up by half a level, or a quarter level?

Which parts of you body did you apply the red/infrared light to? Was it only the head (if so, what part of the head)? Or did you apply it to the rest of the body? If so, which parts?

Did your gains in health from light therapy remain after you stopped it, or did they disappear once you stopped?
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
@Johannes"You found red/infrared light therapy may have improved your ME/CFS. "
Yes, and I wrote may, because my other treatment is 2500 microgram vitamin D injection every 14 days and it helps to many of my symptoms. So does the sun light. But I am sure that red and NIR light really help. It just isn't the whole picture. This is more explained in my threds.

"Can I ask, on the ME/CFS scale of: mild, moderate and severe, where were you before the light therapy, and where did you end up after the therapy?"
Ofcourse. But I don't know the criteria for mild, moderate or severe, so I will describe my symptoms to you before and after.

Before: I was bed bound 20 to 22hoursa day. I could barely walk with my dog twice a day about 10 minutes. Sometimes my wife had to go with the dog because I couldn't. But I always did one walk with the dog daily. I could barely cook 2 to 3 times a week and many times I had to ask my wife to help me with it. I became very tired from cooking. I could go to grocery store a couple of times a week. My grocery store is 3 minutes from my home with a car. I was too tired to wash my self but one to two times a week. I could watch tv for 3 hours a day and read things from the internet for 1 to 2 of hours a day. A cleaning person cleaned our house twice a month doing also dishes, because I couldn't. That is all I could do.

My symptoms were: easily overdoing physical and mental tasks and getting really tired, headache, irritation and angryness, depression, anxiousness, brainfog, problems to think and learn, memory problems, ichiness, dry eyes, horrible food sensitivity, and a dozen other symptoms. But some of these symptoms disappeared after being in sunshine in previous summers, so I started with vitamin D injections and it helped quite a lot with many symptoms but didn't take them away. Only when red light and NIR threapy was applied for appr. three months, they were gone. I had some blood tests that were below reference levels. Vitamin D didn't correct those.

After therapy, which is continuing every day unless I manage to be in the sunshine atleast an hour a day in the best UVB between 10 o'clock am to 5 o'clock pm.:

I will nowadays rest in the sofa for maybe 3 to 4 hours a day but that is because my back muscles are too week for me to sit or stand more than 3 to 4 hours at the time and then I need 30-60 mins rest. I walk with the dog 15 to 20 minutes twice a day. I cook every or every second day by myself. I go to a better grocery store 2 times a week (20 minutes drive with a car) and a couple of times a week to this other grocery store which is closer. I visit my friends 2 to 3 times a week for an hour. I wash myself every second day. I go for a hobby ( taking photoghraps) once a week. I can watch TV for six or more hours and read internet the most of the day. I wash dishes but let the cleaning person vacuum, wipe with wet cloth and change linens. I help my wife with smalI things. I sail with our sail boat, which is quite physical. When sailing, I will do most of these other things mentioned before, in addition of sailing. We sail with my wife every of every other day for 2 to 4 hours. When you sail, you read navionics charts continuously and compare it with the surrounding nature. We do not have electronic charts but paper ones. You drive your boat with a long stick (tiller) abd it demands muscle power. You have to concetrate to follow other people with their boats. You change sails, and trim them. You lift 7,5 kg anchor once a day etc. You walk in rocks.

I have no other symptoms but sometimes I am tired and if I do too much brain work, my thinking get sticky. My blood tests that were below the reference levels changed back to normal as they did in previous summers. These blood tests were: active vitamin D (D1.25), folate, homocysteine, ASAT(liver) and magnesium and my creatine became better but not normal. These were due to sunshine and propably also partly because I started to do more physical things.

"Which parts of you body did you apply the red/infrared light to? Was it only the head (if so, what part of the head)? Or did you apply it to the rest of the body? If so, which parts?"
Most of my body, that is from the top of my head to my knees and both sides, front and back. 10 minutes to front and 10 minutes to back twice daily.

"Did your gains in health from light therapy remain after you stopped it, or did they disappear once you stopped?"
I haven't stopped. I have my own PBM light unit and I will not stop. But on November when the sun is not shining enough, I will know how much the sunshine effected my health and how much red and NIR therapy helped. But somewhere in November, I will start to use narrow band UVB light lamps with red and NIR lamps to replace sunshine. If I get some symptoms back, then that means it is not only the red and NIR that is helping me but something else from the sunshine too. Only after that I will start my UVB therapy.

But I know already that red and NIR light therapy has helped me a lot because in spring, after three months of use, I started to feel a lot better and then I hadn't had sunshine because of being inside only. My symptoms started to gradually disappear in about six weeks after starting the therapy but after 3 months I was in quite good shape. But it was only after four months that I was at my best which hasn't changed yet.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

dreamydays

Senior Member
Messages
169
Likes
300
Location
United Kingdom
Hi, I have had my light for about 5 days now. I have to say I am impressed with it. The best benefit of using it is aiming it at from my chest up to my face with my eyes closed for 10-15 mins. Apparently I have more colour in my face (which I get when I am doing better), the light itself is not UV/tanning. It seems to alleviate minor headaches well and it just gives me a little more energy overall. Unfortunately, my fibromyalgia symptoms which are nerve and skin related haven't improved which was was my main hope.

photo_2020-08-14_18-15-33.jpg photo_2020-08-14_18-15-33 (2).jpg photo_2020-08-14_18-15-33 (3).jpg

First pic is off, then IR only and then RED AND IR
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
16,439
Likes
35,450
Before: I was bed bound 20 to 22hoursa day. I could barely walk with my dog twice a day about 10 minutes.
That sounds like you had severe ME/CFS before your treatments.



I will nowadays rest in the sofa for maybe 3 to 4 hours a day but that is because my back muscles are too week for me to sit or stand more than 3 to 4 hours at the time and then I need 30-60 mins rest. I walk with the dog 15 to 20 minutes twice a day. I cook every or every second day by myself. I go to a better grocery store 2 times a week (20 minutes drive with a car) and a couple of times a week to this other grocery store which is closer. I visit my friends 2 to 3 times a week for an hour.
That sounds like after your treatments you moved up to moderate ME/CFS.



my other treatment is 2500 microgram vitamin D injection every 14 days and it helps to many of my symptoms.
Did you start the vitamin D injections at the same time as the red/infrared light therapy? Or were the injections started at a different point in time?

If the injections were started at a different time, did you see any benefits soon after starting the injections?
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
Hi, I have had my light for about 5 days now. I have to say I am impressed with it. The best benefit of using it is aiming it at from my chest up to my face with my eyes closed for 10-15 mins. Apparently I have more colour in my face (which I get when I am doing better), the light itself is not UV/tanning. It seems to alleviate minor headaches well and it just gives me a little more energy overall. Unfortunately, my fibromyalgia symptoms which are nerve and skin related haven't improved which was was my main hope.

View attachment 38799 View attachment 38800 View attachment 38801

First pic is off, then IR only and then RED AND IR
Glad to hear. With skin problems it may take from couple of weeks up to one month until you see the results, depending on skin issues. Have you been in direct sunshine during the last months?
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
Did you start the vitamin D injections at the same time as the red/infrared light therapy? Or were the injections started at a different point in time?

If the injections were started at a different time, did you see any benefits soon after starting the injections?
Injections were started in 2014. PBM therapy was started this year. Yes, I saw first benefits in about two months. They first injected me once in three months. Many of the symptoms came back about six weeks from the injection. When dosage was finally changed to once a month, no symptoms become worse anymore. And always, when the dosage has been risen, the symptoms have become smaller or some symptoms have even disappeared. But it was always about the level of vitamin D in my body, not about how ofter they were given. It takes approximately 2 to 3 months after the dosage is changed, to see the result in vitamin D blood test but the level in the body keeps slowly changing even after that, and it takes almost a whole year until you see the final result in the blood test.

My vit D level is now 101,6ng/ml = 254nmol/l and the aim is closer to 300nmol/l but not over 120ng/ml = 300nmol/l.
 
Last edited:

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
16,439
Likes
35,450
Injections were started in 2014. PBM therapy was started this year.
Since the vitamin D treatment was started 6 years ago, and the red/infrared light therapy was started this year, are you not easily able to separate the benefits of the red/infrared light therapy from the the vitamin D benefits?

I would have thought that any benefits you would have got from vitamin D injections would have already manifested. Therefore, any new improvements to you ME/CFS symptoms you observed this year, since starting the light therapy, must be entirely due to the light therapy, I would have thought?
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
Since the vitamin D treatment was started 6 years ago, and the red/infrared light therapy was started this year, are you not easily able to separate the benefits of the red/infrared light therapy from the the vitamin D benefits?

I would have thought that any benefits you would have got from vitamin D injections would have already manifested. Therefore, any new improvements to you ME/CFS symptoms you observed this year, since starting the light therapy, must be entirely due to the light therapy, I would have thought?
I am quite sure that I can separate the benefit of each but I wan't to be very sure. Please see my previous thred as I have edited it a bit. My latest change in my vitamin D dosage was last November. My dosage was more than doubled. It should be pretty constant by now but then there is the sunshine, which has earlier risen up my vitamin D level by 50 to 60 nmol/l (20-24ng/ml). So it is possible, that some of the benefits I get still comes from the vitamin D from the sunshine and some from the red and NIR light therapy. I know for sure at the end of the year. In the earlier years many of my symptoms have started to come back around the end of September or in November. But as I said earlier red and near-infrared therapy really helped in Spring. It is just a question of how much of the help came from the vitamin D and how much from the light panel.
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
I mean that the results of the new dosage should have been obious at the end of January 2020 and I started my PBM therapy at the end of February and got the reasonably good results in April without sunshine. But I still want to be thoroughly sure.
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
So the latest blood tests show that my creatine is close to normal. Red and near-infrared therapy didn't affect to it but sunlight did. I am wondering...do I get something else on top of red and NIR light from the sunshine which could correct my creatine values or is it possible that human need more hours of red light and NIR than what have been recommended... Or...maybe these results come only after six months of PBM therapy. In any case, my creatine hasn't been this good since 2013.
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
My bowel was inflammated which caused fatigue. But also, I did too much physical things. Now I feel fine. I also increased my vit D dosage. It is now 250 micrograms per day. Has been for a week now. So sunshine, with vitamin D works.
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
My bowel inflammation is gone and I am back from the sea. I came home last Saturday. I felt actually quite well. But didn't manage not to drink beer. Hence my goat is causing me pain in the toe. I feel it also in my whole body. Stopped drinking last tuesday and I am slowly getting better. Luckily I didn't get this terrible pain in to my toe, like last time, where it felt like there was a surgical knive inside it and there was nothing I could do about it for a week or so. I had to use these pain killing plasters that are used for cancer patients because I am unable to use any oral medication.

But all in all, I had pretty nice last two weeks. I felt that my muscles are stronger but still my back muscles are weak. It propably takes another half a year to strenghten them so that they will not become sore at sea. But we are going to our last voyage tomorrow for a week and then it is time to winterize it.

I now know a CFS patient, who purchased exactly the same kind of red and near-infrared panel as I have. She will get it in a week or two. I will report about her situation when she starts her PBM therapy.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
16,439
Likes
35,450
I now know a CFS patient, who purchased exactly the same kind of red and near-infrared panel as I have. She will get it in a week or two. I will report about her situation when she starts her PBM therapy.
That will be interesting.

Johannes, what is the size of your red/infrared panel? How many LEDs does it contain, roughly?

I used a 48 LED infrared illuminator security floodlight (pictured in this post). I have two of these, one running at 830 nm, and the other 850 nm, which is close to the peak absorption wavelengths of mitochondrial complex IV (see the graph in this post).

When I left these pointing at my naked torso for most of the day, every day, I did not notice any improvements in symptoms. But maybe I am not using enough watts per cm2 of light.
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
129
Likes
233
That will be interesting.

Johannes, what is the size of your red/infrared panel? How many LEDs does it contain, roughly?

I used a 48 LED infrared illuminator security floodlight (pictured in this post). I have two of these, one running at 830 nm, and the other 850 nm, which is close to the peak absorption wavelengths of mitochondrial complex IV (see the graph in this post).

When I left these pointing at my naked torso for most of the day, every day, I did not notice any improvements in symptoms. But maybe I am not using enough watts per cm2 of light.

My quess is that you are not using enough mW/cm2.

Here is what I bought last February:

http://www.sgrowled.com/productshow.asp?ArticleID=9T9141ZP2V&id=1508

I have been using this device 10 minutes to front of my body and another ten minutes to back of my body, two times a day. It gives roughly 80mW/cm2 if I stand approximately 10 inches (25cm) away from it. It illuminates everything from my knees to the top of my head.

It is said, based on studies, that 20 minutes a day would be maximum time for therapy and if you have more than that, it would start to deminish the effect. I don't believe that since I spent my summer days at the sea where I get the douple effect of the sunshine as it is reflecting from the water, and I spent normally 3 to 10 hours a day in the sunshine feeling better than ever. Also, scientists say, that it is about joules/cm2, not mW/cm2 only. So based on that, one could spent more time in PBM therapy with less mW/cm2. My quess is, that our body would benefit from lower radiation for longer time more than these big blasts I now have had. But I may be wrong...
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
16,439
Likes
35,450
I thought it would be interesting to compare the light power of your unit to the light power of sunlight, in the red and near infrared range. Sunlight at sea level provides around 0.1 mW/cm2 across each nm wavelength of visible light (see this graph).

Now a 660 nm red LED will have an optical bandwidth of about 20 nm (it will emit most of its power in a band across around 20 nm). And the 850 nm infrared LED will also have an optical bandwidth of around 20 nm. So total bandwidth is 40 nm.

For the same total bandwidth of 40 nm, you will get 40 x 0.1 = 4 mW/cm2 of sunlight. That is, from sunlight you will get 4 mW/cm2 in the 660 nm red and 850 nm infrared bands.

So your light unit which produces 80 mW/cm2 provides much more 660 nm red and 850 nm infrared light than sunlight does.


However, if we consider the entire red and very near infrared spectrum, say from 600 nm red to 1200 nm infrared, that's a width of 600 nm, and in that range, sunlight will provide a power of 600 x 0.1 = 60 mW/cm2.

So if all the red/infrared light from 600 nm to 1200 nm is beneficial for health, then sunlight would be just as good as your light unit. But if there is something special about the particular wavelengths of 660 nm and 850 nm that your light unit provides (such as the effect of these wavelengths on complex IV), then sunlight is not able to match your unit in terms of light power.
 
Messages
12,807
Likes
29,203
Location
Second star to the right ...
@Johannes
It's always good to get your updates, tho I was sorry to hear that drinking beer still causes an unpleasant reaction. Life needs a little leavener, and beer and wine are excellent ones !!!
I now know a CFS patient, who purchased exactly the same kind of red and near-infrared panel as I have. She will get it in a week or two. I will report about her situation when she starts her PBM therapy.
Oh, please do !!! It'll be interesting and informative to see what another intrepid experimenter experiences with red and nir light ....
 
Messages
12,807
Likes
29,203
Location
Second star to the right ...
When I left these pointing at my naked torso for most of the day, every day, I did not notice any improvements in symptoms. But maybe I am not using enough watts per cm2 of light.
That, and possibly using the light for too long on any one part of your body. As well as I recall from all my research, anything over 20 min's, MAX, on any one part of the body will reduce, then totally wipe out, any beneficial effect.


Edited for, yeah, endemic typos ....
 
Last edited: