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Red and near-infrared light therapy, LEDs

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
328
@YippeeKi YOW !! You are right about the fats. I did my graduation work concerning nutrition so I am interested in nutrition. I can only use sunflower oil and rapeseed oil.

I briefly looked amazon for that book. It seems that the book was published in 2018. I may buy it later when my brains work better. Lots has happened since 2018. And I think there is one study worth mentioning that concerns CFS. Have you heard about BDNF= Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor. According to studies red light induces BDNF expression.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-46490-4

BDNF builds up and sustains neurones, especially myelin sheath of neurones. The lack of BDNF causes depression and neurological symptoms, causes memory problems, lowers pain treshold, causes sleep deprivation and mental stress and increases appetite. Damages in myelin sheath can cause irritation (squeamishness? I am not surea bout he right word), depression, anxiety and brainfog. Our body produces BDNF but the production increases vastly during summer months due to sunshine.

But there is also another thing that affects myelin sheaths. Excessive amounts of homocysteine also cause problems with neurones. It brakes down myelin and causes cell death. Swedish recearchers found out that CFS patients have too much homocysteine in their brain. They measured it from cerebrospinal fluid. Too high homocysteine causes depression, anxiety, irritation, problems to concentrate and remember. It also causes brainfog.

Homocysteine can be high if one has chronic heart or kidney problems but it can be high also if one has vitamin B6, B9 or B12 deficiency. Methylcobalamine injections lower too high homocysteine and helps with these cognitive problems.

Interesting, I say. I didn't know all of this last summer. I started to inject methylcobalamin at the end of the year 2018. I noticed that these injections help with my cognitive problems. I had them all. I noticed that during summer I was able to lower my B12 dosage. I thought that it had to be the sunshine that was causing it. I normally injected 5mg once a week. During summer, only once in three weeks, and that was enough. So, I think that red ligh will also help me lower the dosage. Later, I noticed that I need to double the dosage between November and perhaps June. So sunshine lowers the dosage by 80%!! Moneywise, a lot! And I don't particularly like to inject myself.

But I also have a gene mutation in COMT 472 and methylcobalamine is the cure for that. Due to it I have too much dopamine in my brain. Exessive amouts of dopamine in my brain (causing its own symptoms one of them being nervousness) can only be neutralized in secondary route which causes too much ammonium and other bad stuff in my brain yet causing me the same symptoms as high homocysteine. This is caused by lowered energy production in the brain cells. So B12 injections seem to be the key to many of my problems. But maybe NIR helps with COMT problems too, because now we talk about ATP levels. :) I didn't have this problem when I was well, I mean without CFS.

Plenty of reasons to try red light!

I just received an email from the customs that my lamp will arrive next tuesday, a week from today. However, I can't try it before the 11th of Marc after some blood tests. It may affect my kidney and homocysteine lab tests.
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,064
Location
Second star to the right ...
@Johannes
Interesting and inforative post, and thank you for it ...

I've been interested in BDNF for awhile now. In fact, I overcame my fear of coffee (very bad reactions to it at the start of this tedious little Toad's Wild Ride of an illness) and started experimenting with various blends of decaf and regular coffee following a couple of research papers I read on the positive effects of caffeine on BDNF .... I think that it's helped.
Plenty of reasons to try red light!
COuldn't agree ore !!! And I think that as more and ore is revealed about the value of this therapy, we'll be really glad we spent all this time and effort researching it and implementing it.

I'm still in the dual research phase on .... 1) the effects of red/NIR therapy itself, and .... 2) the best, least expensive way of implementing that.


I've found your posts to be valuable input, and thank you for them, Johannes !!! Here's to our efforts and the success and improvement that we both hope they provide .... :wine::wine: (no emoji for celebratory champagne, s this will have to do) :thumbsup::thumbsup: :woot::woot:
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
328
Three days until I start my red and near-infrared therapy! Exciting! I will start on monday afternoon with two minutes and after that 2 minutes twice a day for full body, increasing the dose every 5 days untill 2 x 10 mins. a day. I expect to see some effects on the second day and some more along the way up to two or three months. I will post the results here, only if I find positive or negative effects, not every day.
 
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Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
328
Ok, I started my red and near-infrared therapy on monday with 2 minutes front and two minutes back side, once in the morning and once in the late afternoon. Power would be something like 90 mW/cm2. Today, thursday morning I increased the dosage. I took 2 x 5 mins in the morning and 2 x 5 mins in the late afternoon. I got my first side effect late afternoon during the last minutes of my therapy.

This side effect was similar to the side effect that I get normally when I start my sun bathing in April and it goes away in a couple of hours after I leave sunshine. Side effects end in June. So, because I get these same side effects, I am hopefull that this threrapy actually works. As with the sunshine, it takes two to three months for me to notice the effect of increased sellular energy level, so with red and near-infrared light, it may also take atleast weeks.

There is one positive effect for now: my muscless have been tense before the treatment but relaxed after it. Another effect is, that my wife is interested in this therapy that she uses for her rash and I get to talk about it with her and compare the effects. It looks that her skin is rejuvenating. She doesn't use any chemicals, lotions or anything for her skin except natural soap. She doesn't use any treatment other than red and near-infrared light. Her dead skin cells pealed off from the surface of her face and new much better skin replaces it. She is happy with the results. But we still wait what will happen with the rash which is not in her face

My side effect might be caused by my over doing yesterday. I went to community center and did some wood work for two hours. I was totally exhausted after that and I still am. Maybe I am too tired to stand for 10 minutes two times a day all together.

I am not going to lower my dose just yet, since this feels exactly like what I have had in the beginning of every summer. But I will wait before I will add the dose further, untill I don't get these side effects anymore.

My side effects are: mild nausea that increased towards to the end of treatment. Slight feeling of pressure in my head. Plus something which is not exactly PEM but something similar to it and very mild. All these side effects disappeared in a couple of hours after treatment. They are the same side effects which I didn't consider side effects at all when I was laying in the sunshine last Aprill.

I will write more, if you ask question or if there is something new to report. In the mean while, I continue worrying about corona virus. Today the Finnish government gave instructions to limit physical contact with elderly people and adviced not to arrange any gatherings. Many restrictions concerning corona started today. Well, my life is limited as is anyway. I more worry about how to get food safely.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,064
Location
Second star to the right ...
I am not going to lower my dose just yet, since this feels exactly like what I have had in the beginning of every summer. But I will wait before I will add the dose further, untill I don't get these side effects anymore.
That makes sense, particularly since the side effects mimic the same ones you get from real sunlight. No point in backing it down, but do be cautious about increasing it ...
Her dead skin cells pealed off from the surface of her face and new much better skin replaces it.
That's heartening news. Along with inceasing ATP, I was also intrigued with the potential for possibly reversing some of the less desirable effects that this wormy little compost pile of an illness has produced .... definitely interested in updates re your wife, her rash, and the beneficial effects on her face ....
She is happy with the results. But we still wait what will happen with the rash which is not in her face

I will write more, if you ask question or if there is something new to report. In the mean while, I continue worrying about corona virus.
You and me both, and I'm guessing everyone on this site. ME is kind of a double edged sword here: on the one hand, we're already pretty sequestered, but on the other we have no idea how much more vulnerable ME makes us to COVID-19 ....
Well, my life is limited as is anyway. I more worry about how to get food safely.
Me too. No easy answers here ....


Thank you for posting your results from the early days of your red/NIR experiments, much appreciated !!!
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
328
13 days with PBM therapy. This therapy works with me.

At first, I got side effects. They may have been a result of a drop in my blood pressure. I actually measured my blood pressure for some time and noticed, that the more tired I am, the more I get side effects and the more my blood pressure drops because of one tretment. But it was not a big drop; only 3-5 units. So, my ques is that my side effects didn't come from that. However, I have now used to red and near-infrared light treatment and my blood pressure remains the same before and after the treatment. I feel tired after PBM therapy, so I have to lay down after it. But that doesn't matter because I am still in horizontal position most of the day anyway ;)

The treatment time is now 4 x 5 minutes twice a day. This means that I stand in front of the light panel in 45 degree angle and turn 90 degrees after every 5 minutes. Why? Because if I stand with my face towards the light panel, my sides don't get red and near-infrared light. So, I desided to give a blast to both of my sides at first. Then I found out that kidneys are located so that it would be best to turn 45 degrees to get the biggest amount of radiation to my kidneys. This is because I am testing how IR and NIR light affects my kidney functioning. I have too high kreatinine and my kidneys have troubles to convert vitamin 3D into its active form. But now, because of coronavirus, I will not go to blood tests so I will not know how IR and NIR effects kidneys untill autumn.

As I said, this therapy works with me. I feel a little more energetic than a month ago. Previously, every year, my fatique has been worse and worse, month by month every spring untill June. I should now be even more tired than I was a month ago but I am not, I am better. Slightly better. The time will tell more...
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,064
Location
Second star to the right ...
13 days with PBM therapy. This therapy works with me.
Oooooo, that's really great news, @Johannes. I' really happy for you. I know how exhilirating even small, incremental improvements can be, and how they can lift our spirits ....
I feel tired after PBM therapy, so I have to lay down after it.
From everything I've read, that's a ver expected and common side effect of early red/NIR treatments, and should diminish and then vanish after your body slowly adjusts.
I should now be even more tired than I was a month ago but I am not, I am better. Slightly better. The time will tell more...
This is such great news !!!! And indicates that the more time tells, the better the story will be !!!


Onward and upward :rocket::rocket: !!!
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
I hope you don't mind me adding my own experience to this thread.

You've inspired me to try red-light therapy again for my kidneys. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, in the past I used a security light that had 198 IR LEDS at 850 nm.

I've started again using a different device. This time I'm using a DG Yao flexible red-light therapy pad. It has 52 red lights at 660 nm and 65 infrared lights at 880 nm. This device has a much stronger effect than the security light that I tried before.

On the first day I used it for five minutes over my kidneys. I didn't notice any effect. On the second day I used it for 8 minutes. During the eigth minute I started to feel fatigued. A few minutes after stopping I noticed my kidneys starting to ache a little. I also noticed signs of lower blood pressure (my BP is already far too low). When I went to bed a couple of hours later all the effects were still present. The BP effects continued during the night. My arm would 'go to sleep'/go numb/start tingling from low blood flow just from having it resting on my upper chest.

In the morning the low BP effect was still present, along with extra fatigue. It gradually reduced until I was mostly back to normal by evening. Something else I noticed in the morning was darker than usual urine with a stronger odor. Maybe my kidneys were working a little better through the night.

I didn't use the pad yesterday but will try again for 5 minutes today.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,064
Location
Second star to the right ...
In the morning the low BP effect was still present, along with extra fatigue. I
From everything I've rad about it, including actual research studies, that sounds right on, and is an expected effect of really effectiev read light therapy. Huzzah !!!
Something else I noticed in the morning was darker than usual urine with a stronger odor. Maybe my kidneys were working a little better through the night.
I think that's incredibly good !!!


And I think that maybe using it every other day is a good idea, at least at the start. Apparently the negative effects, like fatigue and organs complaining wear off the longer you use it.

Please keep us posted. I'm really hoping this helps you turn a corner, a little at a time. It would be wonderful !!!!
 
Messages
47
Light therapy may help. I noticed it helped some, you don't need as many lights as I have to find out if it'll work. Other than Vitamin D and other effects, looks like UV or even lower lights energizes White blood cells (probably why lower latitudes have less disease).
 

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Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
328
Hi again. I haven't been writing because some sort of flu/influenza or what ever hit me. My doctor said it could be coronavirus, so my wife moved to her parents empty house for two weeks. This flu is something that I have never experienced, so it could he corona. But I haven't had any head ache or fever. I will be tested at the end of this month to see if it was corona. My wife will move back home this tuesday. Anyway, this flu makes me very tired.

@PatJ this thing with PBM and kidneys is very interesting. One professor told in his internet interview that he knows patients who were having dialysis for kidneys but after PBM therapy, they didn't need to go to dialysis anymore. There will be a new study published in few weeks about a PBM and kindeys: "Photobiomodulation threrapy increases functional capacity of patients with chronic kidney failure: Randomized controlled trial."

I have my own study going on. After five weeks of photobiomodulation therapy I will have laboratory tests as my creatine has been over the reference value since year 2012, for as long as I have had CFS. This is believed to be caused by my CFS or as my doctor says mitochondriapathy. I will have blood test and urine test on the 20th of April and the results should be ready in a week. I will post them here.

So, I have increased my PBM to 4 x 10 minutes twice a day. This will be the maximum dosage. I stand and have 10 minutes PBM and rotate 90 degrees, then I and have 10 minutes more and then rotate 90 degrees, and another 10 minutes and I roteate 90 degrees and once more 10 minutes. That covers most of my body from my head to my knees. It is not easy to stand 40 minutes but it seems my body gets used to it day by day. My back muscles are week so this causes pain a bit.

I feel more energetic than normally this time of year but this flu is making it hard to understand if my fatigue is caused by it or something else. So I don't know how much PBM helps at this point.
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
And I think that maybe using it every other day is a good idea, at least at the start. Apparently the negative effects, like fatigue and organs complaining wear off the longer you use it.

I've been doing 5 minutes a day. It has led to more a little more tiredness, and little achy feelings from my left kidney, but not as much as before with 8 minutes, so I'll stick to it for a few more days before trying to increase.

One professor told in his internet interview that he knows patients who were having dialysis for kidneys but after PBM therapy, they didn't need to go to dialysis anymore.

That's encouraging.

There will be a new study published in few weeks about a PBM and kindeys: "Photobiomodulation threrapy increases functional capacity of patients with chronic kidney failure: Randomized controlled trial."

It sounds interesting and I'm looking forward to reading it. How did you know about it?

I have my own study going on.

I hope you get good results.

So, I have increased my PBM to 4 x 10 minutes twice a day.

I'm glad to hear you're tolerating it very well, and seeing benefits. Hopefully your flu will pass quickly and you'll continue to improve.
 

Johannes

Senior Member
Messages
328
It sounds interesting and I'm looking forward to reading it. How did you know about it?

There is a facebook group called:

Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) and Photobiomodulation (PBM) Discussions

I joined the group a few weeks ago. Someone there attached a picture of an approval letter from a scientific magazine, which is going throught this study in order to publish it.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,064
Location
Second star to the right ...
But I haven't had any head ache or fever.
Both of thos symptoms are often absent in COVID patients, particularly fever, which seems to be absent about 40% or so of the time,

Here's a link to a thread with a helpful graph of the differences between COVID, flu, colds, etc ...

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...id-19-flu-colds-allergies.79653/#post-2267189

One professor told in his internet interview that he knows patients who were having dialysis for kidneys but after PBM therapy, they didn't need to go to dialysis anymore.
I'm always highly suspicious of this kind of miraculous and unsupported report on any treatment protocol or supplement ....
So, I have increased my PBM to 4 x 10 minutes twice a day. This will be the maximum dosage.
From everything I've read, 20 mins a day should be the maximum, but if your light source is on the weak side, maybe more is OK ..... check how you feel, you'll know if you hvae to adjust time exposures ....
 
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