Hi Johny, How did you know that you needed to increase the methyl folate and by how many?
Hi Freddd.
If I understand well, after the "third day", we need to gradually increase the potassium until we feel good enough again. How much potassium is needed in that case?
How do we know we need more folate? What is the safe amount we can gradually increase with?
@Theodore,
How do I know I need more folate? I had folate deficiency symptoms all my life. I did not know that and neither did any doctors I went to. Prior to Metafolin being available, it was impossible to do an A-B test with an active methylfolate compared to folic acid. I found that as i took Metafolin, and then more metafolin, that I needed far more than I ever dreamed of, or could afford. According to the Deplin research "At 7.5 and 15 mg doses there are "no side effects different from placebo". On the other hand, Cerefolin with NAC has a bunch of side effects different from Deplin which are induced folate deficiency symptoms based on my responses. that are not recognized as such.
I found that 4mg of Metafolin each 4 hours or so to rapidly bring all those symptoms down. The burning pain in the angular cheilitis starts fading in hours. In 3 to 5 days of continuing 15mg a day or better and all the folate deficiency sympotms were mostly gone but some would come back periodically. At 30mg/day none of them come back for me.
The low potassium symptoms have very little overlap with the folate deficiency symptoms. It is almost an entirely different list, especially on the first few days of increasing symptoms. I find that my total need for potassium has varied from 1200 mg to 2600+ mg. I take it as 1000mg with each of two meals of the potassium gluconate, and glass of water with 3 tablets (300mg - 3mg) 2 or 3 times per day.
In both cases I found that the effective dose started working in hours.or less. They both have short serum half life so I don't expect a dose or two to have the same effect all day as 3 larger doses or 4 smaller doses. The lists below appears to be reasonably useful in having some idea as to what is going on. Everybody's results are different and depend upon all the other items they are taking. among other things. The results depend upon titrated doses. However, too low a dose may just make paradoxical symptoms worse.
Version 2.12 02/14/2016 A work in process, incomplete, use at your own risk.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response
Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).
There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.
IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure
Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.
Group 2a - Both
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Group 2b – Either or both
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms.
These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.
Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
Old symptoms returning
Edema
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
Longer term, very serious
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily
Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.
Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone
Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.
Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.
Group 8 – Boron.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron
https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html
Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.
