Poll: Freddd's B-12 Treatment Plan

[ahmo]

CountryLife 5mg MB12. I've been using Life Extensions Mfolate tablets. No sugars, I use them sublingually.

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnycomelately Some of us have had excellent results w/ transdermal B12, both commercial and DIY.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/

I'll second that. Transdermal gives me a much greater effect with a lower dose than sublingual.

Like @ahmo I've tried DIY and commercial, & find commercial better - less mess; a more standardised product; & an expert at the company I can talk through problems with. My first week on the transdermal was filled with a euphoria I rarely got from the SL - indicating much better penetration.

IMO TD is cheaper than sublingual because of the lower dose, & the serious 'externality' of tooth decay.

 

[whodathunkit]

@ahmo, @Johnmac, how messy are the transdermals? I'm thinking about getting some for my elderly mother but if they're truly messy they could be a problem. She's still (always) a diva and pretty picky about stuff like that.

 

[ahmo]

@whodathunkit I've been thinking of you. The DIY transdermal is probably not a good idea. But the B12 oils is super simple and efficient, a tiny dot of oil from a pump. If she doesn't keep up her usage, you'll get something new to try.

 

[whodathunkit]

@ahmo Me, too.

I guess my question is about the vended oils from that guy. So no mess with those? I don't care about how tiny the dot is, if there's staining or anything to get on her furniture or clothes after a short period of time, it won't work.

I wouldn't dare do DIY oils for her. I'm just thinking about having the chutzpah to do that.

 

[Johnmac]

@ahmo Me, too.

I guess my question is about the vended oils from that guy. So no mess with those? I don't care about how tiny the dot is, if there's staining or anything to get on her furniture or clothes after a short period of time, it won't work.

I wouldn't dare do DIY oils for her. I'm just thinking about having the chutzpah to do that.

Yes, DIY is no good for the elderly & fussy.

For my elderly (92) Mum - 7 the rest of my family - I use the B12Oils product.

Mess? Yes unless you do it right. I started my Mum off with rubbing it on her stomach; but of course there are clothes in that region, & she kept getting it on them. Then we switched to forearm (the softer, underneath bit) & it's been fine.

I'd describe it as more of a blob that a dot - maybe the amount you'd get from two drops from a dropper. Until you start rubbing it in, it runs slowly down your arm - quite similar viscosity & colour to blood. Once in a blue moon (toward the end of the bottle's life) it spatters a bit. So always hold it close to the skin, & pointing away from the body.

There won't be any staining after applying, so long as she rubs it in properly - takes 20-30 seconds. If there's any red left on the skin, you haven't rubbed it in properly. It disappears under the skin very nicely when you do it properly.

A great product for the elderly & non-compliant.

Hope you are good, whodathnkit & ahmo. (If either of you knows anything about copper deficiency - my current hell realm - could you kindly let me know?)

 

[whodathunkit]

A great product for the elderly & non-compliant.

That's my mother. Thanks a bunch, @Johnmac!

Do you mind spoon-feeding me a link to the vendor? I know it's around here somewhere (seen it several times) but don't really have time to search threads right now. I'd like to get some ordered ASAP. Lozenges are low compliance and I just forgot about the transdermal for her.

I wish I could tell you something about copper deficiency but when it comes to that I'm like Jon Snow...I know nothing. Since heightened awareness of copper deficiency is a @Freddd thing and this is a Freddd thread, I feel safe in asking: what problems are you experiencing?

 

[CCC]

That's my mother. Thanks a bunch, @Johnmac!

Do you mind spoon-feeding me a link to the vendor? I know it's around here somewhere (seen it several times) but don't really have time to search threads right now. I'd like to get some ordered ASAP. Lozenges are low compliance and I just forgot about the transdermal for her.

I wish I could tell you something about copper deficiency but when it comes to that I'm like Jon Snow...I know nothing. Since heightened awareness of copper deficiency is a @Freddd thing and this is a Freddd thread, I feel safe in asking: what problems are you experiencing?

http://b12oils.com/

 

[Johnmac]

That's my mother. Thanks a bunch, @Johnmac!

Do you mind spoon-feeding me a link to the vendor? I know it's around here somewhere (seen it several times) but don't really have time to search threads right now. I'd like to get some ordered ASAP. Lozenges are low compliance and I just forgot about the transdermal for her.

I wish I could tell you something about copper deficiency but when it comes to that I'm like Jon Snow...I know nothing. Since heightened awareness of copper deficiency is a @Freddd thing and this is a Freddd thread, I feel safe in asking: what problems are you experiencing?

Yes, CCC's link below is correct. The guy is Dr Gregory Russell-Jones, who likes to be called Greg, & is very informative & obliging. I found the adenosyl/methyl mix works well for me. It's about 66:33 I think, as that reflects the balance of the body stores - tho you'd better verify that with Greg.

My copper deficiency symptoms are:

Raging skin infections - big cold sore, big boil, the flu, & a couple of finger infections (over recent months). I normally never get any of these.

Crap mood: highly irritable

Anemia (pale & faint)

Worsening psoriasis

Copper deficiency is most unpleasant. Mine apparently comes from too much zinc for too long, treating pyroluria.

 

[Kathevans]

@Johnmac Have you seen Fred's thread on 'Refeeding Syndrome'? After Fred describes the syndrome, he goes right into his own copper deficiency and his symptoms and the protocol that helped him back out of a bad situation. You can check it out here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...es-to-healing-via-induced-deficiencies.41605/

I'm sorry to hear about your symptoms. It does seem like a game of wack-a-mole, this methylation protocol. I think all we can do is stay in touch with our alternative doctors and get vitamin and mineral panels run on a regular basis. I also admit to having a hard time assigning a mineral or a vitamin to a specific symptom. I may be getting better at it, but my body continues to play tricks on me...

I, too, am happy with the B-12 Oils, though I don't use it daily--still doing some comparison with the Enzymatic and moving around my B2 and Folate levels. That said, it's very easy. I put the blob on the inner side of my left arm, then rub the inner side--as much as possible--of my right arm against it. The bright pink liquid goes into the skin very quickly, in 30 seconds or so of rubbing, leaving only a very slight moist/oiliness which seems to disappear (not that I continue to watch it!).

My question to anyone else using it is that now that the summer is arriving here in Boston and my urge is to wear less clothing, does it matter if the area of application is actually exposed to the sun? I haven't gotten around to asking Greg, but perhaps someone else has. I know you, Johnmac, say that once it's absorbed, that's that.

 

[ahmo]

@whodathunkit I've found the tiny dot of commercial oil rubs in immediately, invisibly.

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac Have you seen Fred's thread on 'Refeeding Syndrome'? After Fred describes the syndrome, he goes right into his own copper deficiency and his symptoms and the protocol that helped him back out of a bad situation. You can check it out here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...es-to-healing-via-induced-deficiencies.41605/

I'm sorry to hear about your symptoms. It does seem like a game of wack-a-mole, this methylation protocol. I think all we can do is stay in touch with our alternative doctors and get vitamin and mineral panels run on a regular basis. I also admit to having a hard time assigning a mineral or a vitamin to a specific symptom. I may be getting better at it, but my body continues to play tricks on me...

I, too, am happy with the B-12 Oils, though I don't use it daily--still doing some comparison with the Enzymatic and moving around my B2 and Folate levels. That said, it's very easy. I put the blob on the inner side of my left arm, then rub the inner side--as much as possible--of my right arm against it. The bright pink liquid goes into the skin very quickly, in 30 seconds or so of rubbing, leaving only a very slight moist/oiliness which seems to disappear (not that I continue to watch it!).

My question to anyone else using it is that now that the summer is arriving here in Boston and my urge is to wear less clothing, does it matter if the area of application is actually exposed to the sun? I haven't gotten around to asking Greg, but perhaps someone else has. I know you, Johnmac, say that once it's absorbed, that's that.

Hi Kath, and thanks for the link - which I had seen but lost, for some reason. @Freddd 's struggle is just about mythological in scope. Kind of an inward, biochemical version of Hannibal crossing the Alps, or the Long March.

This is as much as I understood:

1. Firing up methylation can induce deficiencies (including copper).

2. Fred's dosing with 20mg of copper - but also still taking zinc, tho in a reduced dose. (I've cut zinc out altogether - that seems logical to me, but maybe I'm wrong?)

I believe my copper deficiency was induced by overdosing zinc, not by B12 or the DQs. Having switched to the oils & taking enough B2 daily, & dropping the m-folate & carnitine, I don't get deficiency symptoms from my methylation protocol so far as I'm aware. I guess my copper crash could have been from firing up methylation, but I think several months on 150mg/day zinc (and a year on zinc in total) is a more likely explanation.

Ironically, Fred warned me about my high zinc dose before either of us knew we had copper deficiency.

Fred's -Cu symptoms seem different to mine. Mine were above all raging bacterial & viral infections; also worse psoriasis & high irritability. I didn't get sleep disorders, or demyelination. I got tooth decay from -Cu, but not receding gums. However when I nailed copper & started supplementing, it "worked in hours", as for him. I didn't need potassium, but I did take some as I'd read that it helps Cu uptake.

Fred was lucky to have a doc who understood anything about nutrition.

You can expose your skin to the sun within a few minutes after applying the B12 oil: it's all gone in by then. I also asked Greg how long I should wait to have a shower after applying the oil: he said, "Two minutes." (-:

 

[whodathunkit]

@Johnmac, I'm sorry to hear about all those symptoms. Seems like something may be going on with the immune system, possibly not all related to copper...? Are you still doing gut therapy (pre- and probiotics)?

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac, I'm sorry to hear about all those symptoms. Seems like something may be going on with the immune system, possibly not all related to copper...? Are you still doing gut therapy (pre- and probiotics)?

Hi @whodathunkit,

Well I fixed everything last time with copper alone (I've had this twice), so I'll go with the -Cu theory for now. My immune system is normally very good (indeed too good).

I make my own yogurt, tho no pre-biotics for now.

"Underneath" this highly unpleasant -Cu state I feel quite good. I.e. when it passes I feel like I'll bounce back okay. The chronic fatigue symptoms have all gone for example, since Day 28 on the B12 oils.

All the best...

 

[whodathunkit]

Underneath" this highly unpleasant -Cu state I feel quite good. I.e. when it passes I feel like I'll bounce back okay. The chronic fatigue symptoms have all gone for example, since Day 28 on the B12 oils.

I totally understand that and IMO that "underneath" feeling is the best sign there is. Good for you!

 

[Johnmac]

I totally understand that and IMO that "underneath" feeling is the best sign there is. Good for you!

Cool. I was wondering if I was making sense. But it is a distinct feeling - i.e. that I'm presently laid low by a discrete problem: but that most things are functioning quite well, & when that problem's gone, I should be functioning quite well. Fingers crossed on that one.

Hope you are going okay, esp re energy...?

 

[Kathevans]

@whodathunkit and @Johnmac Have you informed/prepared these Mums for the possible need for extra potassium?

 

[whodathunkit]

Hope you are going okay, esp re energy...?

Actually, I'm doing pretty darn good, Johnmac. I'm able to exercise every day for an hour or so...even did HIT the other morning AND detailed my car (wash and waxed) later the same day, without PEM. I was a little tired the next day but no big. So I really, really can't complain. I'm tinkering with some interestingly related problems between the gut and nervous system via acetylcholine, but I don't even half understand what's going on except there's a bigger connection than I ever thought possible and it's probably not all about gut bugs. Have no idea when I'll get that crap thrashed out, if ever, but as far as energy...can't complain. Motivation and focus still remain problems, though, hence the tinkering with brain chemicals. Which also has something to do with mitochondria.

Have you informed/prepared these Mums for the possible need for extra potassium?

Kath, I natter on to my mother about *everything* we talk about around here. She's really, really happy that I'm so much better but most of the time doesn't really connect what I tell her I went through with things that can actually happen to other people like her. Bottom line is she does not really listen to me unless something starts to affect her, and then it's like I never said anything. But I gave her some potassium powder for something else a while back, so if she gets refeed symptoms I'll tell her to drag it out. She doesn't really have the mitochondrial problems that we do around here, though...she's just getting up in years (79). So she probably won't have too much trouble with the B12.

 

[whodathunkit]

Jeez, the postage cost on these B12 oils is RIDICULOUS! Half again as much as one bottle of product!

 

[Johnmac]

@whodathunkit and @Johnmac Have you informed/prepared these Mums for the possible need for extra potassium?

Hi Kath,

We haven't noticed any need for potassium. Everyone seems to be managing fine without it. Seems that with the B2 you don't need all the extras much; I hardly take any folate now also, & no carnitine.

All the best...