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Transdermal B12 oils

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by garyfritz, Oct 14, 2014.

  1. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    TL;DR Summary:

    A small Australian company makes a B12-infused oil, like massage oil. Rub it into your skin and the B12 diffuses into your system. It's supposed to work better than other delivery mechanisms. They have animal tests showing as much as 80% absorption, and they're currently doing a clinical trial on humans. That's vastly higher than you're going to get from sublinguals, and the oils are supposed to deliver steadier B12 serum levels than injection.

    Their website (http://www.b12oils.com) is terrible, lacking even basic information. But they're extremely helpful and the product seems to work well. I've summarized most of the need-to-know info here.

    The oils come in little bottles that measure out a 0.25ml squirt. Each bottle has about 50-60 "squirt" doses. They recommend one squirt/day, but I'm finding 3 or even 4 is working much better for my specific SNPs.

    They have two main B12 products:
    • Pure methyl B12, with 3mg/ml of B12, 0.75mg mB12 per dose.
    • Adeno/methyl B12, with 7.5mg/ml of Adeno and 2.5mg/ml methyl. So that's about 1.875mg adB12 and 0.625mg mB12 per dose. They say that is the proportion normally found in the body ("although of course this would be in a person who methylates normally"), and people with CFS/ME get good results with it. With my SNPs I think I'm doing better with more methyl.
    They also have pure-adeno, hydroxyl, hydroxyl/methyl, and others. Pricing is $50/bottle, roughly $1/dose. Buy 3 bottles (any combination) and the price drops to $40.

    I've only been using it for about 10 days, but so far the results are much better than the 20mg Country Life mB12 + 4mg adB12 I was using before. I might need 2-3 doses per day for best results -- still testing. I also tried IM and SC injection and neither seemed to work as well for me as the CL, so this is by far the best thing I've found so far.

    ===============================

    Much more detail:

    In this thread @Lynn_M said she'd been using a transdermal oil product for over a year and was very pleased with the results. I ordered some to give it a try.

    As I said above their website is terrible, but their "support person" Greg (who I later realized is Dr. Gregory Russell-Jones, director of the company) is extraordinarily helpful. He says he's not an MD, "just" a PhD biochemist with 25 years of studying B12 metabolism, so he's very familiar with all the relevant SNPs and reactions.

    Greg helped me clarify my understanding of how B12 metabolism works. For the benefit of anyone else who might be interested, here's what I've learned and how it applies to the oil products:
    • B12 is used constantly in nearly all systems of the body, but especially the brain and nervous system.
    • Sublinguals and injections (and the oil) raise the B12 level in serum, but the B12 is not usable in this state. It must be picked up by a "transporter molecule," transcobolamin II (TCII), and delivered to where it is needed.
    • The problems with sublinguals, and even injections to a lesser extent, are absorption and duration. Sublinguals typically have very poor absorption, especially if you dissolve them quickly. Greg says "very, very little" of the B12 from sublinguals reaches the brain. Sublinguals and IM injections spike the serum levels of B12 for a short time but don't maintain it. SC injections are better but still not ideal. The oil is supposed to deliver B12 slowly over the course of 8 hours or more. For my specific situation one 8-hour dose per day wasn't enough to keep my symptoms under control, but it does seem to work much better than sublinguals or injections. More frequent application worked much better.
    • Greg used the analogy of the TCII being like a ferry boat that carries cars across a river. Say the ferry carries 10 cars. Sublinguals and injections tend to spike the levels, so there are 100 or 1000 cars waiting in line for a little while. But before the ferry can carry them away, the B12 levels drop. So most of the B12 is lost and wasted. It does no good to have 1000 cars there for a short time; you want at least 10 or 20 cars there ALL the time, 24x7, so you can always load up a ferry whenever one shows up. The oil is supposed to excel at that.
    • BTW this is why you're not supposed to suck on sublinguals -- they dissolve too fast. Not only do you absorb less, but you spike the levels for a shorter window of time. You want to dribble B12 into your system as slowly and as consistently as possible, to load up as many TCII's as possible.
    • I asked Greg if there was any way to increase the number of TCII's so we could speed up the B12 pipeline. He said "Choose different parents?" :) So we just have to make sure we make the best use of the TCII we have.
    • The TCII ferries can deliver B12 to the brain or wherever it is needed at the moment. If there is no B12 in serum, the TCII can load up from the B12 reservoir in the liver. Ideally the liver holds about 5mg of B12 in reserve. (The brain may store a reserve too -- not sure on that point.) But if your B12 requirements are higher than your B12 supply -- which is typical for those of us with the various B12-related SNPs -- then the reservoir in the liver eventually gets drained. Then you have no source of B12, the TCII ferries are empty, and you start to show acute B12 deficiency symptoms, e.g. CFS/ME. (I suspect this is what happened to me over the past 1-2 years: with age my ability to process and deliver B12 decreased. I had periodic symptoms as my B12 supply fluctuated. I eventually drained my liver's B12 reservoir, and then I started feeling like crap.)
    • One interesting side factoid was that MTFR/MTRR appear in the population at much less than expected Mendelian levels, because fewer fetuses with the mutations survive. In countries where they don't supplement with folate, the incidence of the MTFR/MTRR SNPs is only 3% or so. In countries where they do supplement, the levels of the SNPs are much higher. As are levels of autism &etc.
    The oil is supposed to keep your serum levels high at all times so the TCII is always loaded up for immediate needs, AND for re-stocking the reserves in the liver. Greg warned that it could take a year to fully top up the reservoir.

    He says many people get good results from a single dose per day. In 10 days of testing, I found it only seemed to work for 4-6 hours for me. In the last few days I've boosted to 3-4 doses/day, and my symptoms have mostly disappeared. My muscles are still a trifle achy/tingly but my energy level is better and I'm sleeping soundly through the night. (And this is in spite of "challenging" it for the last few days. In the last several months I haven't been tolerating alcohol at all well. The last 2 days I got together with friends and had 3-4 drinks -- and had no adverse effects!) This is MUCH better than I was doing with 20-30mg/day of CL mB12 plus 4mg/day of adB12. Greg says it sometimes takes a few weeks for people to "take to" the oils, and it takes about a full month to get full benefit, so in another week or two it may start working better and I may be able to back off to 1-2/day.

    After some period of using extra doses, I should fill up my reserve tank, and after that I think I can probably back off to a lower level. But the results I'm getting with ~3 doses/day are well worth it to me. I'll be happy to use the higher dosages for a year if it means my symptoms vanish and the re-supplied reservoir will once again protect me from deficiency.

    Using the oils: just squirt a dose into your hand and rub it into your skin. Leave it on, i.e. don't wash it off. Greg says you can rub it anywhere, but I suspect it might work better if applied to fatty tissue. So I've been applying it around my belly and midsection. The oil is quite red, but it rubs in fine. I might notice a very slight rosy glow where I've rubbed it in, but I might be imagining it.

    So that's what I know about the oils so far. I'm very pleased with the results I'm getting and I'm excited to see how it improves over time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
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  2. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I'm trialing them too.

    I have found the customer support very helpful as well.
     
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  3. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84 Senior Member

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    What's the incentive to buy this if I can just buy any liquid b12 and massage it in my skin. Where do they suggest putting it?
     
  4. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    It might work, might not. You're welcome to try.

    I actually asked Greg if I could "roll my own" and mix e.g. some injectable B12 into some high-quality massage oil. I was perfectly willing to buy from them and support their R&D, but just in case they went out of business some day... He said it wasn't that easy, and that they had experimented with a number of oils and emulsifiers to get the good results they have with their product.

    Greg says anywhere works. I use it on areas with more subcutaneous fat.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
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  5. tayaway

    tayaway

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    I have been ordering this B12 oil in 3-packs since last year. I love it and hope I never have to go back to sublinguals. I believe I definitely have been storing B12 in my liver because the other day I forgot to use the B12 with my morning 5mg of methylfolate...and had absolutely no negative effects! I didn't realize I'd skipped a day until it occurred to me the next morning. My B12 deficiency symptoms were never as severe as some on this board, but for the first few months of use if I didn't use it first thing in the morning my energy felt very shaky/unstable; then once I had applied the oil I would start getting an "ahhh..." relaxed/stable feeling. Much more potent than sublinguals (I already had receding gums before starting those anyway, don't need any more of that). I rub one pump of oil into my forearm, then alternate to the other arm every other day. For me it has been totally worth the cost and the ordering from Australia. :)
     
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  6. PointsNorth

    PointsNorth Paulo

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    Has anyone compared B12 oil to B12 patch? Patch is more accessible to me. But will seek out oil if it it is better!
     
  7. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    @PointsNorth, what brand do you use? I wasn't familiar with patches. Most of the ones I found with a quick search were expensive and/or claimed 1000mcg would last you a week. Well 2250mcg doesn't even last me 6 hours so I don't think those would work for me!
     
  8. PointsNorth

    PointsNorth Paulo

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    @garyf I haven't tried either oils or transdermal patches. Either one might be superior to injections. That would be wonderful. What I would like to know is whether oils are better. Otherwise I would start with transdermal.
    PN
     
  9. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    @garyfritz
    Has Greg done any research of his own on exactly how B12 is being much more slowly assimilated using his oil, over other means such as sublingual or is he just guessing. The website has no research as far as I can see to prove his explanation on this point.

    Also has he applied for a patent for this means of delivering B12.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  10. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    @PointsNorth, I know nothing about patches so I can't compare them. The ones I found don't look practical for someone with B12 needs like mine. I can ask Greg if he knows about them.

    @liverock, Greg says their small-animal testing indicated as much as 80% absorption, which is a lot more than you're likely to get from sublingual -- I've seen Freddd estimate in the 1-5% range. They're currently doing a human study. No idea if he's tried to patent it.
     
  11. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    I just realized I misinterpreted/misunderstood the dose size on the oil. It is not 0.75ml per dose, it's 0.75mg B12 per dose in the pure-methyl oil. The dose size is 0.25ml. So the pure-methyl is 3mg/ml = 0.75mg mB12, and the adeno/methyl oil is 7.5mg/ml = 1.875mg adB12 and 2.5mg/ml = 0.625mg mB12. I've corrected the original post.

    @PointsNorth, Greg is aware of the patches and he sounds quite skeptical about them. He's contacted some patch vendors and "they could not even give me anecdotal evidence that it works." He also has doubts about the technology, saying "Nearly all successful patch delivery technology revolves around oil soluble molecules such as nicotine, scopolamine, testosterone, estrogen, etc, which are all highly oil soluble. B12 and folate aren't at all oil soluble. Moreover they couldn't give me any reason for why the technology should work."

    Given that the patches are an unknown whereas several members here are having good results with the oil, and the oil delivers much more B12 per $, and also that Greg is so astonishingly helpful, I would recommend the oil. It's quite easy to order and to use.

    @liverock, Greg says they've lodged a provisional patent, but given the reality of rip-off products from various countries and the difficulty of defending a patent, he's inclined to go with a trade-secret approach. Patents are good for commercial use (e.g. bartering patents with another company) but not really for protecting the product. In fact the required disclosure in a patent can actually make it easier for a rip-off artist to copy your product.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
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  12. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    @garyfritz
    Glad its working for you but at your dosage your going to be using 2 bottles/month:eek:.
    Are they also subject to import tax besides S&H? Still if its working for you thats the main thing!.
    I hope your dopamine levels are working better now as well, positive moods,no more RLS etc.

    Dr Yasko found that at the MTR/MTRR junction the heavy metals, mercury and lead, tend to park on these 2 enzymes which can antagonise MB12. You may find MB12 going further if you start chelating these heavy metals. Aluminum (on the bottom left DHPR circle) is another one which it would be advantageous to lower as well, as it hinders the conversion of BH2 to BH4,which would be helpful for you having a A1298C++ mutation.

    [​IMG]I'm not, sure but I would think there might be a better place than rubbing the MB12 on the midriff as the body tends to park most of its toxins in the belly fat. These might also tend to lower B12.

    Good luck with it all and keep us posted on progress.:)
     
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  13. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Well if I stay at 3/day, each bottle will last upwards of 20 days, so it'll be about 1.5 bottles/mo = $60/mo. Considering that I was using about 2.5 bottles of CL per month = $37.50, and not getting results this good, I'm happy to bump it up to $60. If it works as Greg says, then I should be restocking my liver stores and then I'll be able to back off on the dosage. Even if I stay at 2/day that's no worse than the cost of the CL, and I don't have to keep popping sublinguals all day.

    BTW Greg says I'm the first person he's encountered who burns through so much B12. I told him I was hardly the only one taking 20mg/day of sublinguals. :)

    No, and the S&H wasn't terrible. It worked out to about $44 per bottle for 3 or more.

    My mood was always OK, as long as I didn't feel absolutely wretched physically, and it's still good.

    I'm still adjusting to the oil &etc, so I still have periods of symptoms, including occasional RLS. Nothing like it used to be, though. I'm already pretty satisfied with how it's working, and Greg says it tends to improve over 3-6 weeks. If it improves from here I'll be a happy camper.

    I didn't have any metals problems the last time I got tested (about 6 yrs ago) but I imagine some chelation wouldn't hurt. How would you do it? Would you suggest dietary approaches like pectin, cilantro, parsley, cruciferous veggies & high sulfur foods, etc? Or some supplemental approach?
     
  14. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    @garyfritz, are you using their straight methylB12 oil? Or the Adenosyl-methyl B12?
     
  15. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    @picante, I started out with the ad/me oil. For the last 5-6 days I've been using both. Greg says I "burn through" a lot more B12 than most people, and (at least initially) one dose per day wasn't cutting it. Right now I'm using 1 ad/me in the morning (sometimes at 3-4 am if I wake up and I'm too wired to sleep) and 2 methyl-only at midday and bedtime.

    So far it's working very well. My condition seemed to keep worsening over the past 2 years or so. Sublinguals barely-not-quite kept the symptoms under control but I felt like I was definitely losing ground. Since starting the oils I'm feeling much better. I'm sleeping better than I've slept since I first started taking B12 in 2013. I'm hoping that it will work as Greg says: my body will load up with B12 and I'll be more resilient to stressors.

    Early days yet -- I've only been using the oils for 2 1/2 weeks -- but I like what I'm seeing so far.
     
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  16. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Update after another week: still doing great. I had one night when the mid-night horrors kept me awake, but only a fairly mild case, and that's about the only time in the last 2+ weeks. I'm sleeping well, feeling good during the day, and my energy level is good. Lovin' it so far!
     
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  17. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    Good news is always a time for celebration! :thumbsup::balloons:
    .
    Apple pectin for aluminium and cut down on canned drinks as much as possible especially soda's. Magnesium for lead and mercury (these are the ones that block MTR/MTRR enzyme) . I think you still need to watch the ammonia and sulphur. Sulphite strips measure this and the ideal level is 400.
    /http://www.ctlscientific.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=91329 [/quote]
     
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  18. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    @liverock
    I'm looking for some sulphite strips have you ordered these, seem a bit expensive?
     
  19. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    I basically don't drink canned drinks. Never cared for sodas even as a kid. Occasionally I'll have a canned microbrew but that's rare.

    I take 1000mg calcium and 500mg magnesium every night. I don't know how much is "right."

    I have a lot of trouble reading the sulphite strips -- they don't seem to match any of the color key examples -- but I'm pretty sure my level is > 1600. :(
     
  20. PointsNorth

    PointsNorth Paulo

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    @Gary. A mild case of the mid-night horrors?? ;-) I shall invite Greg to join us here on PR.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
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