Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Asklipia]

I have added a new thread with my latest discoveries!
Be well!
Asklipia

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interesting take on oxalates (apart from the raw-foodism advertisement):

From the Townsend Letter
December 2015

Green Smoothie Bliss:
Was Popeye Secretly on Dialysis?
by Thomas Lodi, MD, MD(H)

 

[Gondwanaland]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12853781
J Urol. 2003 Aug;170(2 Pt 1):384-8.
Gender differences in seasonal variation of urine stone risk factors.
Parks JH1, Barsky R, Coe FL.
Nephrology Section, University of Chicago, Illinois, USA.

Overall the sexes differ markedly in the timing of stone risk. Men show a dual summer calcium oxalate and uric acid high risk, while women show a high early winter calcium oxalate high risk.

 

[Paralee]

I found a variant in my gene report yesterday that showed I might be susceptible to oxalates. I hope I saved it or printed it out....time to get organized.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Pls share & consider posting on trying low oxolates facebook group

 

[Paralee]

@aquariusgirl , who were posting to?

 

[aquariusgirl]

You

 

[Paralee]

@aquariusgirl , ok, that's what I thought, but sometimes I answer someone's question to someone else as if it were to me, so wanted to make sure.

I will look for what I found, papers scattered everywhere. I'm a member over there so I was going to make sure I understood it right before I started scattering the wrong info.

 

[Paralee]

Here's what I found and I'm homozygous. It's gene SLC13A1 and the allele (?) is rs7780966. This is just what I found as one of my variants and it says it (the gene) can cause osteochondrodysplasia and hyperoxyluria. I don't know if it's with this particular snp or not.

I can only get so far trying to track things down and then I finally give up because I don't know how to figure the fine points out. I did find some articles to confirm the snp but I'm not sure if this type of oxyluria is what I was looking for.
Maybe? Wish I could get a better handle on figuring this stuff out.

Anyway, if anyone knows anything about it, I would need to know before I say any more, because it's like hit or miss with me. thanks.

 

[Valentijn]

Here's what I found and I'm homozygous. It's gene SLC13A1 and the allele (?) is rs7780966. This is just what I found as one of my variants and it says it (the gene) can cause osteochondrodysplasia and hyperoxyluria. I don't know if it's with this particular snp or not.

I don't see any indication that that particular SNP has any impact. Also, both alleles are extremely common, so a great many people (20-25%) would be homozygous for either version.

 

[Paralee]

I don't see any indication that that particular SNP has any impact. Also, both alleles are extremely common, so a great many people (20-25%) would be homozygous for either version.

Thanks Valetijin, I did notice they were both common, one of these days I'll be able to learn about individual snps better, maybe.

 

[Gondwanaland]

After my 1st dose of milk my corneal "herpes" bothered me horribly. Then 24h later it just all of a sudden stopped hurting. I think the big oxalate crystal that was deposited in my scratched cornea has been disposed of by the K2. Also I had a curve of worsening and then improving joint pain that I think is from the K2 action in my body. I think soon I might try a small dose of K2-MK4 supp again

After a recent adverse event I am thanking my eye improvement to the milk riboflavin. And the worsening to excess boron / sulfites which deplete B2.
@Violeta

 

[Paralee]

@Gondwanaland or someone that knows about buying the B2 and K2 supplements.....What brand would be good and how much should I take? (I'm sensitive with supplements).
I was reading about this and I think now I'm low on B2 because of the skeletal problems a deficiency can cause, and I've been meaning to get the K2. I almost bought it once but it had the mk4 and mk7 in equal amounts. I wasn't sure if that was good or a different percentage would be better.
I seem to have deficiencies in boron also, so maybe a small amt of boron and B6 (yes, now I'm low in
B6) so.....thanks if you know. I'm wondering if they would just all end up cancelling each other out?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Paralee I mostly order my supps from a local compounding pharmacy, but when I buy online my personal criteria to choose supplements are:

1) it must be affordable
2) I prefer in capsules so I can open them and pour just a tiny bit in a glass with water to gauge my reaction and find out what they do (tablets can be hard to cut)
3) I always pick the lowest dosage available
4) I avoid brands that use multiple unpronounceable fillings

Other people have other criteria

 

[Paralee]

Thanks @Gondwanaland , I hadn't thought of a compounding pharmacy, much preferable than all that filler junk. I will call and see what they are willing to do.

 

[Paralee]

@Gondwanaland , I think I may need to build my vit. D back up a little first before I try the K2, as per a post I just saw on possibly needing calcium supplements that you posted. I've been a little lax on my vit. D intake, and calcium won't absorb without the D, or so I've heard.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland , I think I may need to build my vit. D back up a little first before I try the K2, as per a post I just saw on possibly needing calcium supplements that you posted. I've been a little lax on my vit. D intake, and calcium won't absorb without the D, or so I've heard.

Blood results of vitamins D2 and D3 are useful in this instance.

 

[Paralee]

@Gondwanaland , my vit d2 is always low and vit D3 isn't much better unless I really take it every day, and then it tests barely normal. I've slacked off considerably, so I know I need them. What I'm wondering about is the vit. B2.....try and get that tested, lol. Dr. didn't even check my folate when I asked. So I'm hoping just a small amount of B2 would be ok to try to see if it helps with my leg pain (& other areas). It feels like my leg is trying to break right under my right knee.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Poor Zinc metabolism involved in oxalate kidney stones. This is why B6 (and carnosine/carcinine) helps... Click the link for related published research at the bottom of the page. Bolding mine.

Optimizing Kidney Stone Management Using Metallomics and Metabolomics
Kidney stone disease affects nearly 10% of the US population and adds $5 billion in financial burden to the US healthcare system annually. Great strides have been made in the physical removal of urinary stones, yet little progress has been made in treating or preventing stone pathogenesis.

Patient stone and urine samples are routinely sent for chemical analysis, yet these data often have little impact on clinical decision making. Techniques for stone analysis have not advanced in many years and are often rudimentary, unreliable, and unreproducible. In addition, traditional 24-hour urine testing does not strongly predict future stone events and thus has limited utility in preventing stone recurrence.

The most common (~85%) type of kidney stones are calcium-based, typically composed of calcium oxalate and/or calcium phosphate. Monitoring urinary calcium can be useful, but does not provide a complete indication of risk. Moreover, modifying calcium intake to change systemic calcium homeostasis does not have a significant impact on stone formation.

New biomarkers of kidney stone disease are needed to improve pathophysyiological insight and the clinical management of kidney stone disease. Our previous Developmental Center for Interdisciplinary Research in Benign Urology work has shown that metals other than calcium, including zinc and strontium, play important roles in nephrolithiasis in an invertebrate model of stone formation.

For example, increasing dietary zinc strongly promotes stone formation, while chelating zinc or inhibiting zinc transport dramatically reduces the amount of stones.

To translate these findings to human kidney stone disease, this proposal to renew funding for our Center is focused on confirming the importance of trace metals in stone formation in a cohort of patients and demonstrating the value of comprehensive metallomic and targeted metabolomics analysis for predicting symptomatic stone episodes.

We will follow a group of patients with calcium-based stones associated with hyperuricosuria and/or hypocitraturia in our urinary stone clinic at the University of California San Francisco. Stone and urine samples will be collected and tested with extensive metallomic and metabolomic analysis at our Analytic Core Facility.

Combining the profiles from both metallomics and metabolomics of human stones and urine will allow us to create new diagnostic and therapeutic algorithms to augment or replace the relatively ineffective testing method currently in practice.

Our goal is to identify the compositional patterns of metal and metabolite biomarkers to reveal new aspects of urinary stone pathophysiology. This work will culminate in a novel resource that will be made available to the urology community and will provide the necessary scientific platform to launch a large intervention study in patients with recurrent kidney stone disease.

@Asklipia @aquariusgirl @prioris @Violeta @picante @Lolinda

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interestingly, a lower Zinc intake correlates with increased risk for kidney stones in humans:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27889417
J Urol. 2017 May;197(5):1342-1348. doi: 10.1016/j.juro.2016.11.096. Epub 2016 Nov 23.
Dietary Zinc and Incident Calcium Kidney Stones in Adolescence.
Tasian GE1, Ross ME2, Song L3, Grundmeier RW4, Massey J5, Denburg MR6, Copelovitch L7, Warner S8, Chi T9, Killilea DW10, Stoller ML9, Furth SL6.
Author information

Abstract
PURPOSE:
We determined the association between dietary zinc intake and incident calcium kidney stones in adolescents. We also examined the relationship between dietary zinc intake and urinary zinc excretion between cases and controls.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
We conducted a nested case-control study within a large pediatric health care system. Three 24-hour dietary recalls and spot urine chemistry analyses were obtained for 30 participants 12 to 18 years old with a first idiopathic calcium based kidney stone and 30 healthy controls matched for age, sex, race and month of enrollment. Conditional logistic regression models were used to estimate the association between daily zinc intake and incident calcium kidney stones, adjusting for dietary phytate, protein, calcium, sodium and oxalate. Multivariable linear regression was used to estimate the association between dietary and urine zinc, adjusting for urine creatinine and dietary phytate and calcium.

RESULTS:
Cases had lower daily zinc intake (8.1 mg) than controls (10 mg, p = 0.029). Daily zinc intake of boys and girls with calcium stones was 2 mg and 1.2 mg less, respectively, than the daily intake recommended by the Institute of Medicine. Odds of incident stones were reduced by 13% for every 1 mg increase in daily zinc intake (OR 0.87, 95% CI 0.75-0.99). There was an estimated 4.5 μg/dl increase in urine zinc for every 1 mg increase in dietary zinc (p = 0.009), with weak evidence of a smaller increase in urine zinc in cases than in controls (interaction p = 0.08).

CONCLUSIONS:
Decreased dietary zinc intake was independently associated with incident calcium nephrolithiasis in this population of adolescents.