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Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

hixxy

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
Location
Australia
I have huge oxalate problems and I'm also definitely zinc deficient so I don't think I'll be chelating zinc any time soon.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,100
Free download:
Dietary Zinc and Incident Calcium Kidney Stones in Adolescence.

The most likely explanation for the inverse association between dietary zinc and incident calcium stones is the inhibitory effect of zinc on CaP crystallization. Zinc promotes more soluble CaP phases, decreases the size of CaP crystals and inhibits the transformation of brushite to hydroxyapatite.8,17 This inhibition of CaP crystallization and transformation is important to CaP and CaOx stone formation.
....
One hypothesis for the association we observed is that zinc inhibits early CaP crystallization in the kidney and this proximal inhibition prevents growth of CaP stones and the initial formation of Randall plaques.
....
Prior studies have revealed conflicting results about the direction of the association between zinc and nephrolithiasis. Rapid stone formation was reported in a woman with zinc toxicity.20 Additionally
analysis of the National Health and Nutrition Examination
Survey found that adults older than 30 years with zinc intake greater than 15 mg daily (which far exceeds recommended intake for adults) had a 70% increased odds of nephrolithiasis compared to those who consumed less than 7 mg daily.9

However, among patients 18 to 29 years old daily zinc intake was 1 mg lower in those with a history of stones than in those without stones. One explanation for these discrepant results is that excess and insufficient zinc promotes stone formation.

It is also possible that the greater importance of adequate zinc intake during adolescence accounts for the different findings between younger and older patients. Multiple prior studies have found that higher zinc intake is associated with greater bone mineral content and density in children and young adults.21,22
....
We also found an association between increased dietary phytate and decreased odds of incident calcium nephrolithiasis, which is consistent with findings in young women.25 Phytate, which is the principal storage form of phosphate in plants, strongly binds zinc in the gut and reduces its bioavailability. Additionally phytate inhibits
hydroxyapatite and CaOx crystallization and may have an independent inhibitory effect on stone formation.26,27

Nevertheless, our results should be considered preliminary since the association between phytate and calcium stones became statistically insignificant after excluding the participant with high dietary oxalate. We also detected an inverse relationship between dietary oxalate and calcium nephrolithiasis. This association is likely spurious since it was driven by 1 control with extremely high oxalate intake and there is no biological plausibility for this association.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,100
I have huge oxalate problems and I'm also definitely zinc deficient so I don't think I'll be chelating zinc any time soon.
I am also deficient and increasing it via food and/or supplements seems very problematic for me.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,100
https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/345550
Am J Nephrol. 2012;36(6):549-53. doi: 10.1159/000345550. Epub 2012 Dec 4.
Dietary zinc intake and kidney stone formation: evaluation of NHANES III.

Abstract
AIMS:
We aimed to determine whether there is an association between dietary zinc intake (DZI) and prevalent kidney stone disease defined as self-report of any previous episode of kidney stone.

METHODS:
We examined The Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III), a large US population-based cross-sectional study, and used logistic regression analyses to determine the independent association between DZI and prevalent kidney stone disease.

RESULTS:
A total of 15,444 men and women over 18 years of age were eligible for analysis. Among them, 710 participants reported a history of kidney stones. Stone formers tended to have higher DZI than non-stone formers among NHANES III participants, though this difference did not reach statistical significance (p = 0.1). Multivariate adjusted logistic regression analysis revealed that higher DZI (log transformed) was associated with a significantly increased risk of kidney stone disease (odds ratio, OR = 1.41, 95% confidence interval, CI: 1.10-1.81, p = 0.01). After categorizing zinc intake into three groups, those with highest DZI (>15 mg/day) were also associated with a significantly increased risk of kidney stone disease, compared to those with lower DZI (<7 mg/day; OR = 1.70, 95% CI: 1.13-2.57, p = 0.01).

CONCLUSIONS:
Our study suggests that higher DZI is associated with increased risk of kidney stone disease. Future prospective studies are needed to clarify the causal relationship between zinc intake and kidney stone formation.

....

We show that stone formers tend to have a higher DZI than non-stone formers. Higher DZI is associated with a significantly increased risk of prevalent kidney stone disease, especially when DZI exceeds 15 mg/day.
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
I have taken 95mg of zinc orotate (which is equivalent to 29mg of elemental zinc) per day for months. It has had no effect on oxalate stone formation for me.

I had unexplained prostate pain which went away after I started taken the zinc. Being over 60, I was very likely very deficient in zinc. It is also critical for thymus function. Not enough zinc probably leads to more enlargement of prostate and prostate cancer via zinc deficiency.

There is a lot of misleading information on zinc and mineral supplementation and not enough information on vitamin C and the oxalates.

First they will tell you to take x milligrams of zinc but don't say ELEMENTAL ZINC. Zinc orotate is 29% zinc so you have to calculate the real ELEMENTAL amount. I'll bet most people out there are making the same mistake so attempts to cure their deficiency can fail.

Second they somewhat scare people away from higher dosages. They put max at 40 mg elemental but one can go to much higher dosages. I

Third as one ages, the zinc levels fall.


I made a mental mistake in zinc dosing many years ago.

Any studies which correlate key nutrient to some negative affect I never trust. As years have gone by, that has proven the correct thinking. It should be remembered that these conclusions are based on statistics. There will likely be undetected problems in the body that they aren't.

I had symptoms of not being able to urinate. I was first thinking I had enlarged prostate etc. I used different things to try to correct it until I realized down the road that it was oxalate formation in bladder that was causing the blockage problem. I detected the crust of oxalate when I stuck one of those bladder drain thingy and felt the crystals. So I just clean my bladder with Chanca Piedra until the blockage is removed. If you go on internet and try to seek solution to problem, nobody mentions this possibility.

Another area concerning stones is Vitamin C. I don't buy into the idea that it actually causes the stones. Having the oxalate problem, I realized thru experimentation that it likely was not the cause. I think the oxalate problem already formed.

The biggest problem with high doses of vitamin C is side effects it can create. One should stick with Liposomal Vitamin C (e.g.Spheric Liposomal Vitamin C etc) or ones that are processed by liver because it eliminates side effects. So many big touters of vitamin C seem uninformed about the side effects of plain vitamin C and don't mention the Liposomals.

There are other forms that are between the plain and liposomal like Pureway and Ester C. People using Ester Vitamin C study found that people urinated 500% LESS oxalates in their urine. Pureway is a slightly better form with lots of studies too but dos not gace a study on oxalates. Ester C has calcium in it so I am careful about anything with calcium. I used to think that Modified Pectin Citrus had vitamin C but it has none.

One way I test vitamin C and oxalates is that I clean my bladder of oxalates with chanca piedra before hand and then I take the plain vitamin C. I took 20,000 mg within 6 hours and experienced no problem. There is always a chance that plain vitamin C could be a problem but I don't think it is underlying problem but there is a study saying it dumps more oxalates.

One can have oxalate problems and still take vitamin C. I've had ZERO problems with the kinds processed by the liver like liposomals, ester C and pureway. These will also absorb better into the blood serum and cells than plain vitamin C. I think Liposomals are way better than IV of plain vitamin C so can be used with severe illness like sepsis.

There are differences of opinion on what constitutes a liposomal so there is some grey area. I have taken many different ones. I can't tell for sure how much difference there is but that is something for you to decide.
 
Last edited:

aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
I have huge oxalate problems and I'm also definitely zinc deficient so I don't think I'll be chelating zinc any time soon.

same here... I took tons of zinc.. 100mg a day for a long time ... .it's still low in range on blood testing.

Been dumping oxolates for about 8 months by supplementing biotin, b6, b1 but then you run into that whole refeeding nightmare. You need cofactor magnesium....so then you supplement magnesium and your sodium goes low.

Bob Naviaux talked about refeeding IIRC at that Stanford symposium & I got the impression he thought we were screwed... and I'm thinking the same thing.
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
same here... I took tons of zinc.. 100mg a day for a long time ... .it's still low in range on blood testing.

Been dumping oxolates for about 8 months by supplementing biotin, b6, b1 but then you run into that whole refeeding nightmare. You need cofactor magnesium....so then you supplement magnesium and your sodium goes low.

Bob Naviaux talked about refeeding IIRC at that Stanford symposium & I got the impression he thought we were screwed... and I'm thinking the same thing.


I think the blood serum measurement of zinc is useless. It's how much is getting in the tissues that is important. You should be getting enough sea salt in your diet. It is normal for salt and magnesium to tug at each other.
 

hixxy

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
Location
Australia
Bob Naviaux talked about refeeding IIRC at that Stanford symposium & I got the impression he thought we were screwed... and I'm thinking the same thing.

Is there a transcript of what he said about refeeding. Despite being tube fed I seem to have a massive network of deficiencies that if i touch any of them it causes a horrible cascade. The formula doesn't absorb well (I don't even tolerate it really) and it's pretty obvious the protein is degrading rapidly to oxalates. Before I even got on the formula a year ago I had an amino acid analysis done and I was already glycine overloaded so presumably that is where most of my oxalates are coming from.

I can't supplement basically any minerals of b complex in my current state they all cause really severe symptoms even at tiny doses.

There's a possibility I might end up on TPN for a while soon and I'm kind of terrified of it given my sensitivity to any level of supplementation and the fact that the doctors who would be administering aren't very experienced with patients like me.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
There's a possibility I might end up on TPN for a while soon and I'm kind of terrified of it given my sensitivity to any level of supplementation and the fact that the doctors who would be administering aren't very experienced with patients like me.

This reminded me of this paper. There might be something there that could be relevant to you - things to avoid?
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,010
Sometimes zinc deficiency has to do with pyroluria. Dog Person talked about zinc in her thread on B2. B2 helps with zinc metabolism. B6 is also deficient in pyroluria. But B2 is needed for proper B6 metabolism. So maybe taking adequate B2, when that level is corrected, start some B6 and zinc.



I take Mega Food zinc. I cut the tablets into 1/4's, I don't take a lot at a time.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,010
@Gondwanaland or someone that knows about buying the B2 and K2 supplements.....What brand would be good and how much should I take? (I'm sensitive with supplements).
I was reading about this and I think now I'm low on B2 because of the skeletal problems a deficiency can cause, and I've been meaning to get the K2. I almost bought it once but it had the mk4 and mk7 in equal amounts. I wasn't sure if that was good or a different percentage would be better.
I seem to have deficiencies in boron also, so maybe a small amt of boron and B6 (yes, now I'm low in
B6) so.....thanks if you know. I'm wondering if they would just all end up cancelling each other out?

I started taking K2 (again) just a couple of days ago, and I do think it's a big answer to the oxalate problem.

I think it even will chelate calcium deposits out of the gut, especially in the area of the ileocecal valve.

Mk4 and Mk7 are both okay.

Thorne makes a liquid, it's probably the best. It seems expensive but each drop is 1mg.

The capsules, though, might insure that more makes it to the gut, if oxalates actually cause pain in the gut.

Btw, some say that pyroluria is related to a dysbiosis, and I do believe that. I think oxalate problems might be related to some sort of dysbiosis, too.
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
I just want to clarify on elemental Zinc. The way many Zinc forms are listed on label is confusing and not clear all the time. They need to use the word elemental to clarify like say X mg elemental zinc (as zinc orotate). The reason to use orotate is because it has neutral charge and better intracellular absorption. Call manufacture if not label clear. Just a caveat. I used 29% before but that may not be standard.
 

renski

Senior Member
Messages
338
Location
Honolulu
I think the blood serum measurement of zinc is useless. It's how much is getting in the tissues that is important. You should be getting enough sea salt in your diet. It is normal for salt and magnesium to tug at each other.

Yep, zinc RBC or plasma is a better reading, preferably both.
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,277
Location
UK
I have read through the thread, very interesting and encouraging to think that probiotics can help.

One thing though, I wonder if anyone can give me insight on my contact with the low ox FB group. I requested to join and as instructed, friended the mod who contacted me. I read that once they see your ID you unfriend them but I pressed ban or whatever by mistake and immediately my account was deleted. I tried to rejoin explaining what had happened but nothing. So I found Susan's FB account and sent her a message asking for her help, explaining the situation. She confirmed that immediate removal would take place and said she would see what she could do. We had a chat about our joint experience of Ocular Shingles, which I was still getting over, but nothing came of it and I did not hear from her again.
 

acrosstheveil

Senior Member
Messages
373
Susan Owens thinks the opposite. Biotin supplementation is highly recommended on the lo-ox site both as a counter to the detrimental effect of oxalates on biotin dependant enzymes and as a counter to the candida overgrowth which seems common in autistic children.

There is the additional wrinkle that the candida product arabinose appears to be a precursor to oxalate.

when i take biotin my limbs go numb and i get severe chest pains. it's really scary.
 

acrosstheveil

Senior Member
Messages
373
I wonder if thiamine deficiency would be an important factor with dumping oxalates.
I have recently started supplementing with TTPD (Allithiamine) and it has stopped immediately a vigorous bout of oxalate dumping dead in it tracks.
Or maybe it is the other way around and oxalate dumping induces a thiamin deficiency ?

It was something I had considered a few years ago and I had tried thiamin HCL and I found it too stressful, giving me in a manic kind of energy, so I never tried it again. But TTPD is completely different. It gives me enrgy and relaxes at the same time. Maybe I am now ready for it after all these probiotics?


thiamine makes my candida go absolutely nuts. i can't tolerate it at all. took 25 mg the other day and now i have severe hemorrhoids and burning pain in my anus
 
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