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Boron, Molybdenum, SUOX and Sulfites. (The Boron Fix for Sulfites)

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by aaron_c, Jul 30, 2015.

  1. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    Dr. Roberts of Heartfixer suggests that "Vitamin E succinate, boron, and B12 are felt to stimulate SUOX activity." Although he provides no links to support these theories (and I could find none when I looked), I think that my recent experience strongly supports the link between boron and SUOX activity.

    • Over a year and a half ago I began experimenting with high doses of Molybdenum (an important cofactor for Sulfite Oxidase (SUOX), and found that the dose required to free me of the "fuzzy-brain" feeling was 1500 mcg per day. Until very recently, this is what I have taken, with the exception of maybe two or three times that I tried lowering the Molybdenum dose, only to find that I still needed 1500 mcg. As most of you probably know, this is a pretty huge dose. Nonetheless, hair mineral analysis taken at least six months after beginning the high dose of Molybdenum indicated that my Molybdenum was normal.
    • Over a year ago I first tried taking 6 mg of Boron. I quickly developed insomnia, which lasted for over two weeks in spite of the fact that I only took Boron the once.
    • Recently, I began experimenting with taking the fat-soluable vitamins, and found that, to avoid a sort of mental fatigue, I needed to take Boron--however Boron continued to cause terrible insomnia.
    • Finally, having read the above quote from Dr. Roberts, I decided to experiment with lowering molybdenum. This was based on the understanding that Sulfite Oxidase (SUOX) works within mitochondria, transferring electrons produced via the conversion of Sulfite to Sulfate and Nitrite to Nitric Oxide (particularly when tissues are hypoxic) into the electron transport chain. I reasoned that if Boron was somehow increasing SUOX activity, then maybe the high dose of Molybdenum I was taking was overdriving it, and this was adding too much to the electron transport chains in the tissues rich with SUOX. Wikipedia notes that "In mammals, the expression levels of sulfite oxidase is high in the liver, kidney, and heart, and very low in spleen, brain, skeletal muscle, and blood." This matched the particular patter of the fatigue from Boron: Wired, yet especially weak skeletal muscles, a tired brain, and poor digestion.
    • Within days of lowering my daily dose of molybdenum from 1550 mcg to 50 mcg, my sleep returned to normal (for me), and a few weeks later I have yet to experience a fuzzy feeling I associate with excessive sulfites.
    In conclusion: Because Boron A) Helps with my concentration B) Prevents sulfite toxicity and C) Returns my necessary molybdenum dosage to levels that are generally considered "normal," I think that using Boron and small amounts of Molybdenum is a better way to deal with sulfites than just using large amounts of Molybdenum.

    Finally, in regards to Vitamin E succinate, which Dr. Roberts suggests increase SUOX activity: I took vitamin E succinate for most of the time I took high doses of molybdenum, but recently went off of it and noticed no difference in how much molybdenum I needed.

    If this works for other people too, then it might help to explain the fairly large variance in how much molybdenum individuals need to take to avoid sulfite symptoms. I don't think that mutations are the only issue here, because I do not have any problematic mutations in SUOX that I know of.
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Thanks Aaron. I've gone from a high of 1800mcg molybd to 900mcg since getting on top of my peroxynitrite problems. I'll definitely be trying out your boron fix. BTW, I switched from E succinate to Gamma E, per the recommendations of Martin Pall, who says the other forms of E can actually make peroxy problems worse.

    thanks for supporting our hardworking admin.:hug:
     
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  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @aaron_c
    How about the role of Boron in the calcium metabolism? Boron is the same to the parathyroid as iodine is to the thyroid. I know you take heavy supplementation for the calcium metabolism. Boron just seems to be a missing ingredient. Do you also take Strontium?
    http://www.bioimmersion.com/media/docs/fructoborate_monograph.pdf

    Plus, Boron is also involved in dopamine and testosterone synthesis.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21129941

    I found your insights re Boron and Moly roles in methylation very interesting. This coming Saturday I am going to start DH on B1 + Moly in a try to overcome his sulfur issues.

    Last year when I started Boron supplementation it did wonders for my cognition and fingernails :woot: Unfortunately I had to discontinue supplementation after a few weeks due to pain in a left parathyroid. Have retried it a couple of times at lower doses, but the pain always comes back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
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  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland Thanks for pointing to these relationships. Interestingly, since I started FMN form of B2, my body has consistently self-tested negative for strontium and boron, as well as manganese, and a number of antioxidants. I took boron recently, but follow-up question to my body re continuing it was met with:meh:. I'll give it a go again, let my mind override my self-testing.;)
     
  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Why? Perhaps you have enough of it.
     
  6. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland: I bought some strontium, but haven't gotten around to trying it.
     
  7. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Interesting. I don't know my genetic profile but just a couple of weeks ago I increased boron and had a massive detox reaction.

    How much boron is recommended.
     
    Paralee likes this.
  8. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    @shannah: As with so many things, I think it will be different for different people, and it is always good to start low. I have seen studies looking at supplementing 6 and 10 mg, but I think it is possible they were aiming a little higher than many people might need. Although it increases testosterone, on this thread people are talking about how it raises estradiol, high levels of which can be associated with breast cancer. I think it is a question of balance: For some people (mostly women) high boron levels could be problematic. On the other hand, low boron levels are definitely problematic, at least when they get low enough. From organicfacts.net:

    Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.​

    I am currently taking 3 mg Boron per day--it is how much Boron there is in the pills I buy. I don't plan to increase my dose unless my brain starts getting foggy again and I find that Boron helps.

    Assuming that boron helps with SUOX, perhaps one measure might be how much Boron do you need to lower your Molybdenum to "normal" doses like 50-100 mcg per day without getting sulfite symptoms. Having said that: We don't know everything about Boron yet, so please regard all of this as a part of a picture that may not be complete yet.
     
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  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I again asked my body, got a resounding No. So I went looking for boron content of foods, and one of the highest is almonds, of which I'm eating a considerable amount. Carrots have a reasonable amount. And I've found very few references when I looked in the past, as to whether or not bone broth is a source of boron.
     
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  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This is very intriguing to me since I still ignore the role played by B2 in the calcium metabolism. Manganese ok, due to its report to iron and the role they all play in blood synthesis.
     
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  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    good find @Gondwanaland A few times I searched for boron and bone broth, and only found 1 or 2 references. I would have thought :)rolleyes:) that since boron is used in bones, we'd get it from bone broth. Any insight here? I certainly have no shortage of bone broth in my diet. But no shortage of nuts, either.;)
     
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  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I started DH with B1 and Moly (100mcg) for his sulfur issues. Moly made his mood fall to the floor :( Then I gave him a multimin with emphasis in Boron (800mcg). Then he got a bad mood :mad: and insomnia... Now he is taking the multimin with Boron, mood and sleep are improved... but still having a hard time to manage his back pain/stiffness. Magnesium helps a great deal with the morning pain, but how could I manage to make him get up pain-free in the morning? :bang-head:
     
  13. xena

    xena Senior Member

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    "SO was found to significantly contribute to hypoxic nitrite signaling as demonstrated by activation of the canonical NO-sGC-cGMP pathway."

    From one of @aaron_c 's linked papers above

    I wonder if a reason that Boron helped was by increasing NO production generally or also by supporting Ammonia detox. The FMN @ahmo mentions eliminating her need for ammonia support is also a cofactor in NO production, which is involved in ammonia detox.

    Some have reported benefits from nitric oxide donors... I'm feeling a little benefit, especially in terms of blood pressure from taking Citrulline. I also feel a little better from eating celery, another nitrate donor. The interesting point here is that the celery, molybdenum, Boron would specifically help with nitric oxide signaling in a hypoxic state, like we are in.

    I've found that nrf2 activators allow me to tolerate and benefit from sulfur foods and methylation supplements for a few hours after consumption - this paper suggests nitric oxide is involved
    https://academic.oup.com/cardiovasc...ation-of-endothelial-nitric-oxide-synthase-by
    Edit : I don't think nitric oxide is why the nrf2 helps

    In cfs we generally have high iNOS and low eNOS. On a related note, I believe that hornig's group found low ADMA - perhaps from the high iNOS. Robert Naviaux found normal ADMA levels. I think they found normal or slightly Elevated arginine levels. Different people finding different things.

    I've noticed that all three of you who have addressed sulfur /ammonia issues in tolerating methylation had used molybdenum continuously at some point. I found it quickly resulted in uric acid buildup with painful muscle pain and brain fog but I was mildly deficient in it. In the same vein, @Gondwanaland mentioned trouble with gout.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  14. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    I wasn't aware anyone had looked into it... Thank you. Hmm...it occurs to me that ADMA requires methylation (di-methyl arginine). And Yasko is the one who pointed out "ammonia" issues, and she has pretty much all of her patients on some kind of methylation support. Maybe high ADMA is only an issue for those of us supporting methylation? If so, that's an important caveat.

    Good catch. And I wonder how it does that... Conversely, one piece of Stephanie Seneff's theory on sulfites is that Nitric Oxide Synthases...or maybe just eNOS...produce sulfate in addition to nitric oxide, and presumably can be induced to only produce sulfate.

    Sorry, this is all a little imprecise, and I think there's more to say. My brain is fried tonight.
     
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  15. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    I've read many times that boron is to parathyroids as iodine is to thyroids. You're supposed to take boron with something else (of course I can't remember what) to protect the kidneys.

    I didn't know about all this other stuff, I've taken boron a lot because it helps retain my calcium.

    Sorry @Gondwanaland , I just realized you had already mentioned the parathyroid part. I really have to slow my reading down.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
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  16. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    I finally found out that I have a SUOX variant so I got some molybdenum and started off VERY lightly. I've only taken it about 3 times.... 1/4 of a 250 tablet. I get sleepy and the next morning I have the (TMI?) best bowel movement.

    But I don't know enough to keep trying it.
     
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  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @picante just draw my attention to this interesting compendium about sulfites
    Report #11 - The Detoxification System Part III: Sulfoxidation and Sulfation

    insufficient levels of Cysteine Dioxygenase
     
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  18. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    From the report Izzy linked, this might be helpful for those who are taking molybdenum:
    I think aldehyde oxidase might be required for detoxing acetaldehyde, which is a by-product of candida infection. So you would probably deplete molybdenum stores just from that.
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I am having a hard time to tell apart sulfite from boron toxicity, which I just went through.
    From the report linked above (page 7):
    Add dried fruit to this list and we have both sulfites + boron.

    I know I had Boron overload because I had parathyroid pain (and was gorging on high boron foods). I know I had B2 depletion due to migraines, vomiting, burning eyes.
     

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