Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[rippe]

just in case

 

[rippe]

Gondwanaland,
du have something to read for me about the glycine / b6 / oxalate / joint pain relation? the whole topic is new to me. and I noticed joint pain after mg-bisglycinate and want to know more about how b6 prevents glycin converting into oxalate.
thank you!

 

[alicec]

I am taking a look at the studies mentioned in the video, and would like to know what @Violeta @Asklipia @alicec think about this stuff...

I've watched the video and looked at the abstracts you linked.

What a terrible speaker and rambling disorganised presentation!

Most of that stuff we have already discussed at some point, especially the critical role of the AGT enzyme.

Maybe we have not talked much about the importance of sulfates here but it is certainly something that Susan Owens talks about a lot on the low-ox site. Based on her recommendations I apply topical sulfate every day (Epsom salts solution) to try to counter oxalated-induced sulfate wasting (couldn't be bother with baths - just rub about 5 ml of a saturated solution into the skin followed by body lotion to counter the drying/itching effect).

The stuff about the Nas1 SNPs was new to me - will follow up on that.

I wasn't aware of the link to diabetes. That is interesting.

The take home message is one we already know. Calcium (or other cations) can help reduce oxalates from diet but an even bigger problem is that we can manufacture oxalates endogenously. They seriously mess with many aspects of metabolism, not just cause kidney stones. This shouldn't be ignored, especially in people with chronic health conditions where oxidative stress is present.

 

[alicec]

du have something to read for me about the glycine / b6 / oxalate / joint pain relation

A few links to earlier posts here and here plus I've uploaded a general summary (updated) of stuff from Susan Owens' site.

Nothing there about joint pain in particular except that bones and joints are places of oxalate deposition so it could be a tell-tale symptoms.

 

[Asklipia]

Maybe we have not talked much about the importance of sulfates here but it is certainly something that Susan Owens talks about a lot on the low-ox site. Based on her recommendations I apply topical sulfate every day (Epsom salts solution) to try to counter oxalated-induced sulfate wasting (couldn't be bother with baths - just rub about 5 ml of a saturated solution into the skin followed by body lotion to counter the drying/itching effect).

 

[Gondwanaland]

Gondwanaland,
du have something to read for me about the glycine / b6 / oxalate / joint pain relation? the whole topic is new to me. and I noticed joint pain after mg-bisglycinate and want to know more about how b6 prevents glycin converting into oxalate.
thank you!

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/the-role-of-oxalates-in-autism-and-chronic-disorders/

I wasn't aware of the link to diabetes. That is interesting.

I became aware of it a little while ago when I read a link someone posted containing advice for diabetics stating that B6 is the main B vit to increase insulin sensitivity... Then things fell into place... And now reading that endogenous oxalates increase with gluconeogenesis explains why I could never do well on a low carb diet.

The irony of it all is that while I was oblivious of everything until 3 years ago, I was on a whole grain diet, hyperinsulinemic, dumping overflowing with oxalates from all skin pores, then landed on warfarin for 1.5 years which suppressed my vit K metabolism and made me even worse... If you do a search for kidney stones and diabetes a lot of studies come up, but studies about the ox effects on those who don't form stones (or haven't formed yet as in the studies above) are harder to find.

It is also seldon mentioned that oxalates bind to iron as much as to calcium, so anemia is another issue (some interesting studies come up as well).

I am just up to a point of joint pain in which I will have to supplement with glycine (or make bone broth - but I want to avoid the amines from the broth), and am trying to find a tolerable and at the same time effective B6 dosage. Apparently glycine is also a link to improving estrogen levels, so impaired glycine metabolism has its own implications (menopausal symptoms, osteoporosis etc).

 

[Gondwanaland]

I apply topical sulfate every day (Epsom salts solution) to try to counter oxalated-induced sulfate wasting (couldn't be bother with baths - just rub about 5 ml of a saturated solution into the skin followed by body lotion to counter the drying/itching effect)

5 ml is a really tiny amount, do you spread it on lower back? Abdomen? bladder? wrists?
The 1st time I tried Epsom Salts I used 1-2 Tbsps in a foot bath and went straight to ER with hypothermia and breathlessness. No help at the ER. Months later I found relief with Magnesium Oxide, but now the tiniest does of magnesium causes me joint pain.

 

[Gondwanaland]

P.S. OTOH would a diet with high fat content (but not low carb) help to bind and excrete oxalates? I think so...

P.P.S. taking coconut oil improves my homocysteine by sparing B6?

 

[Violeta]

From this study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=25525609
Glyoxylate, a new marker metabolite of type 2 diabetes.

Where do you suppose the aldehyde came from? Or aldehyde glyoxylate, whatever that is??? What is aldehyde glyoxylate? I'll have to look that up.

"Using metabolite profiling to characterize human plasma from diabetic versus nondiabetic subjects we observed in a recent study that the reactive aldehyde glyoxylate was increased before high levels of plasma glucose."

 

[Violeta]

From this study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=25525609
Glyoxylate, a new marker metabolite of type 2 diabetes.

Where do you suppose the aldehyde came from? Or aldehyde glyoxylate, whatever that is??? What is aldehyde glyoxylate? I'll have to look that up.

"Using metabolite profiling to characterize human plasma from diabetic versus nondiabetic subjects we observed in a recent study that the reactive aldehyde glyoxylate was increased before high levels of plasma glucose."

Here's where aldehyde glyoxylate comes from.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5...IOTAE#v=onepage&q=aldehyde glyoxylate&f=false

 

[Violeta]

From this study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=25525609
Glyoxylate, a new marker metabolite of type 2 diabetes.

Where do you suppose the aldehyde came from? Or aldehyde glyoxylate, whatever that is??? What is aldehyde glyoxylate? I'll have to look that up.

"Using metabolite profiling to characterize human plasma from diabetic versus nondiabetic subjects we observed in a recent study that the reactive aldehyde glyoxylate was increased before high levels of plasma glucose."

Or maybe the aldehyde glyoxylate came from here.

http://pathway.candidagenome.org/CALBI/NEW-IMAGE?object=GLYOXYLATE-BYPASS

 

[Gondwanaland]

Here's where aldehyde glyoxylate comes from.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5...IOTAE#v=onepage&q=aldehyde glyoxylate&f=false

The link is no good

But I suppose it is from low B1 and low B6?

 

[Gondwanaland]

BTW I belive insulin resistance comes before oxalate issues, and, it has already been demonstrated that blood sugar disregulation is the last marker to show up.

 

[Oci]

Maybe we have not talked much about the importance of sulfates here but it is certainly something that Susan Owens talks about a lot on the low-ox site. Based on her recommendations I apply topical sulfate every day (Epsom salts solution) to try to counter oxalated-induced sulfate wasting (couldn't be bother with baths - just rub about 5 ml of a saturated solution into the skin followed by body lotion to counter the drying/itching effect).

Just a practical question...Do you make it up in large batches? Very hot water? Least itchy places to apply? I have been buying Ancient Minerals Magnesium Lotion. Thanks!

 

[Violeta]

The link works for me, I don't know enough about computers to know why it wouldn't work for you.

I am not saying oxalates aren't involved in insulin resistance or diabetes. I am just asking where the aldehyde glyoxylate is coming from, as it is a precursor to the high glucose.

Is it from a pathogen? Lots of people in my Lyme and coinfections group come up with insulin resistance. My whole disintegration started with hypoglycemia.

I am suggesting that if anyone has oxalate issues that they experiment with dealing with candida or mycoplasma and see what happens. Just in case the oxalates are coming from a fungi or mycoplasma.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I am just asking where the aldehyde glyoxylate is coming from, as it is a precursor to the high glucose.

From highly processed foods that deplete B1 and B6? From MSG? Then from consequently impaired immune system and opportunistic pathogens? In the video I posted viruses are mentioned at 16'50"

 

[Violeta]

From highly processed foods that deplete B1 and B6? From MSG? Then from consequently impaired immune system and opportunistic pathogens? In the video I posted viruses are mentioned at 16'50"

Fungi make aldehydes, viruses don't. But maybe he's not saying that's where the aldehydes come from. He's too annoying to watch the whole thing but the links were helpful.

PS: "Dr." Rostenberg is a DC, not an MD.

I realize DC's tend to know more about nutrition than MD's, but I think it's good to know their actual level of study.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Fungi make aldehydes, viruses don't.

I think the connection with immunity issues per se is interesting, no matter if it is about viruses, bacteria or fungi...

 

[Violeta]

I think the connection with immunity issues per se is interesting, no matter if it is about viruses, bacteria or fungi...

Oh yes, I agree, which is kind of great when you think about getting rid of the root problem.

I was thinking about the fungi as being more like the reason for the high oxalates, so maybe closer to the possible root.

It's difficult to change the way people work on this problem, but maybe if they consider that oxalobacter might have a better chance of replenishing if they removed fungus or mycoplasma, it might be an impetus to reconsider.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I am just asking where the aldehyde glyoxylate is coming from, as it is a precursor to the high glucose.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25525609
Reactive aldehydes derived from sugars