Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Asklipia]

@Gondwanaland
There is dumping in different places at different times. It does not seem that the dumping is dependent on the reason for dumping. It is more or less the same places but in turn : eyes, cloudy urine, burning hands, what I thought at first was dry mouth but really is burning tongue, greasy hair, various lymphatic pains, bad fit of sudden depression, sharp pain when passing stool without being in the least constipated, it is just the "prostate" area which is very painful.
All the same kind of stuff I suffered from before but it does not last more than a couple of days. Not worrisome either not that I understand (?) what is going on.

Sometimes it is very unpleasant and to mitigate :
- Epsom salts bath, works very well and immediately, especially if it is preceded by good glass of vodka/a couple of Ponstan. Now I do not want to overdo this because the sulfur in the Epsom salts might trigger more dumping.
- watching a good movie and going to bed
- drinking a lot of water (not tea because that's more oxalates.
I have decided not to mitigate with more oxalates, because in retrospect this is what I have been doing all my life and it has landed me straight into the problem.)
- a good smoke of curcumin on my vaping machine.

CB caused dumping, Oxalobact causes dumping, the Oral probiotics cause dumping, all I believe due to some vitamin K being created in the body, and taking vitamin K causes dumping.
However the dumping induced by the probiotics is superior because its reaches very very different places. Time will tell if I survive!
Be well!
Asklipia

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Asklipia thank you do much for the detailed answer, those are familiar symptoms
Please keep us updated
I wish you travel on a smooth road - as far as possible

 

[alicec]

Are you taking something to bind the oxalates?

I sometimes take magnesium chloride with meals. I avoid calcium supplementation in general - too excitatory and I have high 1,25 diOH vit D, so don't think I need more calcium.

Are you having skin, urine and stool dumping? One more significatively than other?

I've never dumped via skin (or lungs). For me it is mainly via stool, sometimes urine. With the oxalobact it has been via stool.

@Asklepia's post reminds me that I also get blurred vision and burning hands. While the blurred vision could be caused by many things, from the oxalate point of view I often think that this happens when oxalates are leaving - ditto with the hands.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@alicec thank you so much for the details.

A couple of months ago I had a first and remarkable experience with calcium supplementation. It cleared brainfog completely (which is just now making a comeback), increased dopamine, improved melatonin, and caused some sort of toxic dumping thru urine with a very strange smell I could take it with good effects for 2 days only, and after the 3rd day I had to stop taking it

 

[Oci]

Here's a right great paper about oxalates, their metabolism, and oxalate degrading bacteria.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4235702/

It lists about 18 strains that may degrade oxalates. Even L. Acidophilous is included.

The paper brings up some good points. One is that oxalic acid can be formed in the liver from other substances, such as proline and glycine. ( could make gelatin problematic for a time)

It's interesting how one can stumble on info important for the moment. I have had an oxalate problem including large floaters in one eye. I also have been taking large amounts of magnesium glycinate for sleep and migraine. I recently read that I have one snp that means that I don't use glycine well. Unfortunately I've lost track of that info for the moment. However, I am cutting back on the magnesium glycinate.

I am using Lactobif at the moment and that seems to help signs of oxalates ie bladder/urethra irritation.

 

[Asklipia]

This is interesting about biotin :
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211034815000061

 

[alicec]

This is interesting about biotin :
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211034815000061

Wow that's a high dose. Here was I thinking that the 20mg/day which I have sometimes taken was high - they are using around 10X that dose.

 

[Asklipia]

Wow that's a high dose. Here was I thinking that the 20mg/day which I have sometimes taken was high - they are using around 10X that dose.

The other interesting information from that study is that it takes a long time to see results. In the study they say 2 to 8 months delay after the onset of medication.
I have found this after reading a post by Susan Owen in which she addresses the fact that biotin, B5 and lipoic acid compete for the use of the SMVT transporter.
This is what she writes on the TryingLowOxalates group (I hope I am not breaching any rules by quoting) :

Pantothenic acid is vitamin B5. What this means is that they compete with each other for crossing a cell membrane, so if you are giving high doses of any of them, that might "crowd out" the others, creating a need to possibly supplement the others when you are using high dose biotin.

A pharmaceutical company right now is doing clincial trials on extremely high levels of biotin (600 mgs/day) for ALS and MS, and I don't know if they are running into this issue of vitamin competition for transport.

Glucuronidation is the primary Phase II detoxification process that helps us secrete compounds after they have first been acted on by Phase I enzymes, which are the cytochrome P450 enzymes, and there are many of them. Behind the scences I have been working hard on this pathway, and have even identified and coordinated our efforts with a new faculty member at a university who has three years of experience studying glucuronidation, but in cancer research. She and I are hoping to expand the appreciation of this pathway and all that it does, but we are certain all it does at this point has not been characterized. It is a brand new field, really, that prematurely was written off as only important for drug manufacturers to know about it.

My own family has some serious errors in this chemistry. For me, when I was 13, I was given an antibiotic called chloramphenicol, and it led (four months later after I quit taking it) to bone marrow failure, and I was lucky to survive. The next year, that antibiotic was taken off the market, but that was too late for me. They knew even back then that it made huge demands on glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is used to regulate especially fat soluble vitamins, so A, D, E and K. It also activates some proteins, like opioids. This may be very important to those of us who found a gluten or a casein free diet was important to us, for glucuronidation both activates and detoxifies opioids.

These two areas (SMVT transported vitamins) and glucuronidation are not officially linked, but we do wonder if glucuronidation may play some sort of role in handling oxalate, but the evidence for that is circumstantial at this point and will need to be studied in the laboratory.

Food for thought

 

[Sidereal]

I have found this after reading a post by Susan Owen in which she addresses the fact that biotin, B5 and lipoic acid compete for the use of the SMVT transporter.

Pertinent point, especially for anyone who might be doing chelation with alpha lipoic acid. After several months of taking ALA around the clock I started struggling with biotin and possibly B5 deficiency symptoms. Unfortunately I can't seem to tolerate any B vitamin supplements. :thumbdown:

 

[Oci]

I have had an oxalate problem including large floaters in one eye. I also have been taking large amounts of magnesium glycinate for sleep and migraine....
I am using Lactobif at the moment and that seems to help signs of oxalates ie bladder/urethra irritation.

Lately I have had more brain fog. Its really hard to think and often to speak. I search for words some days.

I have been trying to improve my biome - more probiotics, more complex carbs for resistant starch and even a little potato starch a couple of evenings.

Brainfog was getting worse. As a migraineur, I have never done well on fermented foods. So I decided to forget about all that healthy biome stuff for the moment and see what happens. Well, brainfog has lifted to an appreciable extent.

I was taking the Lactobif + 1 Primal Defense + 2 S. Boulardi per day. Perhaps too much? I have continued the S Boulardi as I am very prone to Candida.

Lactobif seemed to be keeping the urinary oxalate problem in check but floaters are still a big problem.

How can I improve my gut without fermented foods/probiotics/resistant starch?

 

[Oci]

@alicec thank you so much for the details.

A couple of months ago I had a first and remarkable experience with calcium supplementation. It cleared brainfog completely (which is just now making a comeback), increased dopamine, improved melatonin, and caused some sort of toxic dumping thru urine with a very strange smell I could take it with good effects for 2 days only, and after the 3rd day I had to stop taking it

 

[Oci]

@alicec thank you so much for the details.

A couple of months ago I had a first and remarkable experience with calcium supplementation. It cleared brainfog completely (which is just now making a comeback), increased dopamine, improved melatonin, and caused some sort of toxic dumping thru urine with a very strange smell I could take it with good effects for 2 days only, and after the 3rd day I had to stop taking it

This is amazing and certainly worth a try! Thanks! Have you been able to go back to taking calcium?

 

[Violeta]

Lately I have had more brain fog. Its really hard to think and often to speak. I search for words some days.

I have been trying to improve my biome - more probiotics, more complex carbs for resistant starch and even a little potato starch a couple of evenings.

Brainfog was getting worse. As a migraineur, I have never done well on fermented foods. So I decided to forget about all that healthy biome stuff for the moment and see what happens. Well, brainfog has lifted to an appreciable extent.

I was taking the Lactobif + 1 Primal Defense + 2 S. Boulardi per day. Perhaps too much? I have continued the S Boulardi as I am very prone to Candida.

Lactobif seemed to be keeping the urinary oxalate problem in check but floaters are still a big problem.

How can I improve my gut without fermented foods/probiotics/resistant starch?

Biotin + lysine is helping me. http://www.mold-help.org/content/view/411/

 

[Oci]

Biotin + lysine is helping me. http://www.mold-help.org/content/view/411/

Which of those mentioned above are they helping with? Brainfog? Candida? Oxalates? What dosages?

 

[Violeta]

Which of those mentioned above are they helping with? Brainfog? Candida? Oxalates? What dosages?

It is known to help improve the gut. That helps with all three.

 

[Gondwanaland]

This is amazing and certainly worth a try! Thanks! Have you been able to go back to taking calcium?

No, and when I took it the dosage was 30 - 60 mg only. I even tried to pair it with Magnesium, but still could not tolerate calcium supplementation anymore. So now I have been eating fresh/dried herbs daily for the minerals and estrogenic effects (oregano, tarragon, thyme etc). They don't help a great deal anymore, but it's better than nothing.

If you are drawing blood for periodic testing I would suggest you to have an insulin assay done.

 

[Oci]

If you are drawing blood for periodic testing I would suggest you to have an insulin assay done.

What prompted you to think of that? Its no doubt a good idea to test...I have been trying to lower sugar but am craving it more.

 

[Gondwanaland]

What prompted you to think of that? Its no doubt a good idea to test...I have been trying to lower sugar but am craving it more.

http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/...-More-Than-Just-Syndrome-X-The-Paleo-Diet.pdf

 

[Violeta]

This study talks about candida albicans having a glyoxalate cycle. Is that the cycle that produces oxalates? Because if so, I would think that is where endogenous production is occuring.

Am I reading this right?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Search&doptcmdl=Citation&defaultField=Title Word&term=Lorenz[author] AND The glyoxylate cycle is required for fungal virulence

I found that while I was reading this:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0052850#pone.0052850-Lorenz1

Cellular Responses of Candida albicans to Phagocytosis and the Extracellular Activities of Neutrophils Are Critical to Counteract Carbohydrate Starvation, Oxidative and Nitrosative Stress

 

[alicec]

glyoxalate cycle. Is that the cycle that produces oxalates? Because if so, I would think that is where endogenous production is occuring.

The glyoxylate cycle is a truncated Kreb's cycle - see here. It is not the source of endogenous oxalate production though could contribute to it. If there are problems with malate synthase within the cycle, then glyoxylate could accumulate. This in turn could be converted to oxalate.

The pathway for endogenous oxalate production is shown here and discussed here and here