Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,234
Apparently Catherine Tamaro's ideas have been accepted by Autism One.

One of Catherine's ideas was to raise pH levels, and I've been thinking about the oxalate and other problems from that angle. Susan Owen's home page used to say that oxalates act as antioxidants, I don't think it's there anymore, but uric acid acts as an antioxidant too. We all know that oxalates and uric acid have a lot of similar properties.

So what if you find a better way to antioxidize oxidants, then you might no longer have oxalates problems. Apparently calcium doesn't really work, kidney stones are calcium oxalate, and when you depend on calcium you still have to throw away all your oxalate spices, never eat string beans again, etc.

You can help the oxalate sensitivity by increasing bile flow, that will insure excess copper and other oxidants are removed through the feces, not reabsorbed. Does bile antioxidize oxidants, too?

I am wondering if alkaline water will help with the problem. I've been drinking it for a couple of days now and have been able to drink V-8 juice with no abdominal pain. Just a thought.
 
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Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Interesting, Asklipia. I see that the date of the article was 2006. I wonder where Catherine Tamaro is now. Anyone know or have any update on this? At the time she had a 9 year old son who is presumably 18 now.

I guess I will try VSL#3 again.
 

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Apparently Catherine Tamaro's ideas have been accepted by Autism One.

One of Catherine's ideas was to raise pH levels, and I've been thinking about the oxalate and other problems from that angle. Susan Owen's home page used to say that oxalates act as antioxidants, I don't think it's there anymore, but uric acid acts as an antioxidant too. We all know that oxalates and uric acid have a lot of similar properties.

So what if you find a better way to antioxidize oxidants, then you might no longer have oxalates problems. Apparently calcium doesn't really work, kidney stones are calcium oxalate, and when you depend on calcium you still have to throw away all your oxalate spices, never eat string beans again, etc.

You can help the oxalate sensitivity by increasing bile flow, that will insure excess copper and other oxidants are removed through the feces, not reabsorbed. Does bile antioxidize oxidants, too?

I am wondering if alkaline water will help with the problem. I've been drinking it for a couple of days now and have been able to drink V-8 juice with no abdominal pain. Just a thought.

@Violeta Thanks for your post. A few questions. What water do you use that is alkaline? If it is what I think it is, I'm thinking you would have to drink an awful lot of it to change your alkalinity. I can only make a difference in pH by using a lot of veggies...green leafys in particular. Also perhaps using things like Alka Sletzer Gold.

I've read that candida thrives in a more alkaline environment and I'm always fighting Candida. I think it is part of my oxalate problem.

How does one increase bile flow? I no longer have a gallbladder but assume the bile is still flowing - just not into the gallbladder.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,234
I drink Echo alkaline water, not to change my pH but to deal with oxidants. The hydrogen reduces oxidants.

Here's some clinical studies with respect to alkaline water. Reminder: I don't know if it helps with oxalate issues or not. Still in the searching phase.

http://www.echoh2water.com/slide-view/clinical-studies

And I'm wondering if this water is similar, it's low mineral, but I haven't found out if it's pH is high because of hydrogen ions.

www.1907water.com

There's some info online about the difference between alkaline water and taking baking soda (as is found in alka seltzer gold), I'll look for the link.

Have you ever heard that candida is just saving you from oxidants such as mercury? It won't go away as long as the oxidants are there. Oxidants are metals.

There are a variety of ways to increase bile flow, and yes, even if you don't have a gallbladder, you still need bile. Choline (for the fatty liver), B2 to help move out the toxic stores of iron and copper, taurine increases bile flow, and Chinese bitters.

Did you ever wonder why people who get gastric bypasses are warned that they will most likely very quickly develop oxalate issues?
 
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alicec

Senior Member
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1,572
Location
Australia
I could not find her original paper
I'll upload 4 documents from the LOD site. The first is I think the detailed analysis she was talking about but the second is also pretty detailed. The last two are summaries in response to specific questions.

Essentially Susan Owens is saying that much of what Catherine Tamaro says is speculation and hypothesis not backed by studies. Nothing wrong with speculation but it is reported as fact. Where studies have been done they directly contradict what Tamaro says.

Owens did her literature reviews some time ago now but I have looked more recently. I certainly haven't found anything that redeems my confidence in Tamaro.
 

Attachments

  • Addressing Specific Issues in the Vitamin K Paper.pdf
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  • A More Technical Discussion of Vitamin K Issues.pdf
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  • Specific Issues with Vitamin K Protocol.pdf
    129.1 KB · Views: 29
  • Vitamin K Protocol says NOT to use Calcium to mop up excess oxalate.pdf
    106.9 KB · Views: 25

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,234
This is from Susan Owen's refute of Catherine Tamaro's K2 protocol.

"I also recently did a lit review here looking at any established relationship
between vitamin K and calcium channels, and again, the effect appeared to be
negative rather than positive, but involved a form of vitamin K no longer given
to humans, but only pets. There were no studies on other forms of vitamin K and
certainly no studies showing a beneficial mechanism."

Does anyone else see anything ridiculous in that statement?
First of all, magnesium and K2 both are calcium channel blockers.
K2 can help inhibit soft tissue calcification in the brain.


K2's effect on calcium channels:

"A study published in May 2012 showed that calcium supplements may increase risk of cardiovascular disease. This study tracked almost 24,000 Europeans and suggested (in a subgroup analysis) that people taking only calcium supplements were about twice as likely to have a heart attack.1

We carefully examined this report and found multiple design flaws that clearly skewed the results. But for the purposes of this editorial, I am going to assume this finding is accurate and explain how to protect against deadly calcification processes.

Later in this piece, I'll reveal startling information as to who really makes the most popular dietary supplements in America.

Calcium Should Not Be Taken By Itself
aug2012_awsi_01.jpg

Those involved in nutritional medicine have long known that people who supplement with calcium should also take adequate amounts of magnesium. The reason is that magnesium is a natural calcium channel blocker.2

Magnesium deficiency can induce elevation of intracellular calcium concentrations, and accelerate atherosclerosis.3Calcium is a component of atherosclerotic plaque and when calcium salts build up in soft tissues it causes hardening, which is technically called calcification.

The take home message is to ensure sufficient ingestion of calcium and magnesium and as you'll read next—vitamin K2. Regrettably, the majority of aging women still take calcium supplements with no magnesium or vitamin K2, thus setting the stage for arterial calcification and subsequent heart attack and ischemic stroke.12-20


Calcium is so essential that if blood levels fall too low, you will die from an electrolyte imbalance that causes your heart to lose contractile rhythm needed to circulate blood.

Remember there are four chambers to your heart that have to precisely expand and contract or your heart will not beat in a stable manner. Electrolytes are minerals such as potassium, magnesium, and calcium that are needed to maintain the heart's electrical synchronicity.

Adequate calcium is so critical that your body has evolved mechanisms to saturate your blood with calcium if there is even a perception of calcium deficit. In the presence of low calcium, parathyroid hormone is secreted that often pulls too much calcium from bones.21 The downside to this as we age is our arterial walls can become infiltrated with calcium (i.e. calcification).

Fortunately, nature has developed a protective mechanism to keep excess calcium out of your arteries. For this important mechanism to function, vitamin K2 is required. The problem is that our diet provides little vitamin K2 and the result is that virtually all aged people suffer calcification of their brain, glands, heart valves, and arteries.

Published data about the ability of vitamin K2 to protect against cardiovascular disease is compelling. For instance, people with higher intake of vitamin K2 intake have a 57% reduction in risk of dying from cardiovascular disease.17 Those with blocked arteries and damaged heart valves show low vitamin K2 status.23-26 Women taking vitamin K2 have reductions in nonvertebral fractures as high as 81%.27

The reason vitamin K maintains bone density while simultaneously protecting against atherosclerosis is that it activates factors in bone to grab and retain calcium while functioning as a lock in the arterial wall to keep calcium out.15,28-32

EFFECTS OF HIGHER INGESTION OF VITAMIN K17
Reduction in All-Cause Mortality 26%
Reduction in Severe Aortic Calcification 52%
Reduction in Coronary Artery Disease 57%
To explain this further, just imagine a set of calcium-regulating proteins in your arteries that determine whether calcium is allowed in or kept out. If these proteins are locked, they won't allow calcium to enter arterial cells. If the proteins are unlocked, calcium freely flows into cells and destroys them.

The key to turning on calcium-regulating proteins in the body is vitamin K2. If enough K2 is present, these proteins prevent calcium infiltration into soft tissues.3
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,234
This article doesn't talk about oxalates or K2, but it does talk about MS, calcium where it's not supposed to be, and a different antioxidant, St. John's wort. I am posting it to show that removing oxalates from the diet does not address the real cause of oxalate issues.

K2 also helps prevent oxidative stress,
"5. Antioxidant –
Like other Vitamins that contain antioxidant properties such as Vitamins E and C, Vitamin K can also help in protecting the cells from suffering oxidative stress thus, defending the body from diseases."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24075078

Modulation of oxidative stress, apoptosis, and calcium entry in leukocytes of patients with multiple sclerosis by Hypericum perforatum.
Naziroglu M, Kutluhan S, Ovey IS, Aykur M, Yurekli VA.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I had read about the connection between calcium and K2 a year or so ago, alerted by my sister to all things health related. The link she shared with me was on the Mercola (US alternadoc with lots of supplements to sell, some of which seem just fine!) : http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/12/16/vitamin-k2.aspx

But I think what Susan is talking about here is high doses of K2, not the 100mcg supplement I happen to take. (Somewhere I think she, or someone else, says supplementation in the 1-5 mg range is good) I do want to nudge my calcium intake toward my bones, at least to some extent because my bone density test showed a need.

What does it have to do with LAG??? Taking just a smidgen of LAG has been one of my worst experiences :wide-eyed:

What is LAG? I think I'd like to avoid it!

Is there an abbreviation key here on PR? We could really use one, don't you think? I'm sometimes at a loss...:D
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Actually, I haven't self-tested + for it for months. Maybe it was just the best thing I offered my body at the time. Later I added chia seeds and mushrooms, which were preferred. And once I began green bananas, my body hasn't preferred any of those things. Chia once in awhile, but green banana daily.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Initially I diced it into my bowl, poured hot broth over it. Now, having realized I was getting way too much Ca, and quitting the bone broth (after 3.5 years). Now I dice it and stir-fry w/ my meat, ghee, coconut oil. Much nicer.
 

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
@Asklipia @alicec others, Any updates using oxalobact or other oxalates degrading probiotics?
We used Oxalobact for about three weeks. Oxalate dumping has diminished and even disappeared I would say. No problem using that probiotic. I think we shall complete a month, then stop for a month and see what happens.
Certainly something is happening because the toilet smells like my grandfather's toilet in the country used to smell (sorry for these details!:eek:)
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,100
Oxalate dumping has diminished and even disappeared
BTW I used a probiotic that included the strains in Ocheck (except for O. formigenes of course) and either that or the anemia treatment or both made my oxalate issues disappear.

In one week from now I will be getting my order from India and am considering to try making yogurt with Ocheck. Depending on @Asklipia 's answer to my question above :wide-eyed:
 
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