Methylcobalamin Inhalation Therapy

[skwag]

@ahmo
IMO honey would be way too thick to properly wick in these devices. I would guess it wouldn't vaporize either, but rather caramelize then burn. But who really knows until you try!

@bluewhistled
I assume there is still no word on the B12 powder from the guys selling it at $55 ?

I am back on the sublinguals at up to 8 mg folate again. Potassium need has jumped up too. Things seem to be returning to "normal."

 

[ahmo]

thanks skwag. I'd thought about the caramelizing, not about the thickness. Hoping to have a device to try today.

 

[aturtles]

This is my two-week report on vaping methylcobalamin (MeCbl) using an e-cigarette delivery device. Thanks to all and especially @bluewhistled for getting me started on this. [4]

The basic question I was trying to answer, first and foremost, was: is a pulmonary (inhalation) delivery of methylcobalamin effective? How effective?

In addition to studying various online sources, I have recently spoken to a number of doctors and pharmacists about methylcobalamin, and how it is processed and tested in the lab. I am not an expert, but I do know more than I did the last time I posted.

Regarding vaping with e-cig: I've learned enough about the ins and outs of using this particular vaping delivery mechanism over the last two weeks for a seperate post, which I can provide later if there is sufficient interest. I believe my results will cross vaping devices of various sorts, and I am interested in other pulmonary delivery mechanisms.

MY SUMMARY CONCLUSION: vaping methylcobalamin can indeed be as effective as injections, in terms of absorption, while it is more controllable in terms of achieving steady state. The impressive efficacy of vaping MeCbl has forced me to reevaluate my previous assumptions about my absorption of sublingual tabs.

In short: yes.

EXPERIENCE WITH MECBL: My basis for comparison of MeCbl in my system includes: tabs (slow-dissolve sublingual to chewing), lab-compounded nasal spray, doctor (and self) administered injections, both intramuscular and sub-cutaneous. My fastest and most noticeable reaction was my first intramuscular injection, which provided me with a sharp peak experience that lasted a number of hours and informed my understanding of what MeCbl can do at peak doses, in my system in particular.

MY MATERIAL CONSIDERATIONS:

1. Potency. If the source MeCbl is of poor or questionable potency, no delivery mechanism will work well. I elected to spend more for verifiable compounded source materials, in order to remove any question of potencency as a variable. The lab I used has third-party testing overseen by the FDA, which is as verifiable as possible. I also spoke at length to the compounding pharmacist, who has done experiments with MeCbl to better understand its potenency over a range of conditions. (Regarding MeCbl suppliers mentioned earlier on this thread: I pursued contact with all of them via email and phone regarding potency and none answered.)

2. Sterility. Lungs are highly vulnerable to infection, more so than mucosa or stomach. If inhalation therapy is as effective with regards to potenency as injection [1], that implies anything growing in the source materials will be similarly effective -- not a good thing. Given the month-long cough that I finally shook in September and my subsequent bronchitis, a lung infection was a risk I needed to minimize. Again I elected to spend more for something that came to me sterile so introduction of possible contaminant was less likely. (Online distributors mentioned in this thread also did not answer my requests for information about sterility, but logic tells me there is no way, at those prices, that their products are sterile.)

3. Additive-free. My 24-hour test-run using MeCbl nasal spray with the vaper produced both noticeable positive MeCbl effect and also a negative unpleasant brainfog that cleared up when I stopped. The two additives in that compound which I theorize one or both of were responsible for the brainfog, were trace amounts of benzalkonium chloride (preservative) and sodium hydroxide (PH balancer). While one pharmacist told me these were probably fine for inhalation, I decided to be conservative in my assumptions and use an additive-free compound. Again, I wanted to remove as many variables as I could. Without preservatives, of course, sterility becomes more of a concern.

4. Base liquid sterility. The vegetable glycerin, propyline glycol, and distilled water that makes up the base, while selected with attention to quality, are simply not sterile. While this is a vulnerability, I decided not to try to address it. At first I kept the base mix refridgerated, despite it not coming to me that way, but currently am not. The vaper apparently draws better with the base at room temperature.

5. Refridgeration of MeCbl: USP guidelines do not require refridgeration for sealed, sterile MeCbl containers, which means that MeCbl stays potentent at room temperatures. The USP guidelines say nothing about opened containers, due to lack of sterility. I refridgerate my MeCbl to slow down growth of anything potentially introduced, just the way I would with food.

6. Units of MeCbl & Dosing. My MeCbl comes in 1ML sealed containers, each one containing 20MG of MeCbl. Due to the high concentration and the 20ml syringe I use to draw the MeCbl out of the sealed container, exact measurement is difficult. I estimate aprox .8mg per drop. Additionally, the process of putting that drop into the vaper cartridge is inexact; I assumed lossage in the process. My current estimate is that I have been inhaling between 1 and 2m per day, with some amount over that going into my mouth as what I call "spray" as I work out the best ingredients and mix for the base, or MeCbl "e-juice".

7. Light sensitivity. When refilling cartridges with base and MeCbl, I began by filling the cartridges in the dark -- a tricky process -- until a compounding pharmacist I talked to assured me that a few minutes of light exposure would not degrade the MeCbl. I now keep the syringe and (dark glass) bottles of MeCbl covered with aluminum foil (and in the fridge), but I fill cartridiges in full light. Much easier. I keep cartridges covered during the day, during use, with a two small pieces of duct tape, so I can peel it back now and then to check the level of e-juice.

8. Consumption amount. During this trial period, I elected to consume as much as I wanted rather than limit myself in order to find out what my body would do with a high level of saturation, then at some later point perhaps titrate down. After two weeks, based on use, I estimate that I have been inhaling 1-2mg per day.

8. Inhalation technique. Everything from exhaling first and holding it to puffing it into my cheeks for amusement to attempting to blow smoke rings. Inhalation and hold seems most effective, but I experimented with a range, and even shallow breaths were effective.

9. Base mix. I started with 50/50 VG and filtered water, but have shifted away from that. I am experimenting with the exact mix on a near daily basis because the vaping results are strongly affected by the base. My current formula is 10ml Vegetable Glycerin + 3ml distilled water, and 1 drop Propylene Glycol per cartridge fill.

EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS:

From the first inhalation and through the first 3 to 4 days I could absolutely feel the MeCbl in my system, intensely, having a similar reaction to my experience with injections: in a sense of calm, well-being, being energized and sometimes even hyped. I kept the vaper with me through a number of stressful experiences during these days (driving through bad weather) and it helped me both stay alert and relaxed.

I also experienced a hyped insomnia these first 3 days, similar to my start-up with MeCbl tabs months ago, but found I had more daytime energy than the number of hours asleep would usually account for. That is, I didn't sleep well, but it didn't seem to matter much.

My original plan was to continue to take MeCbl sublingual tabs during this test run to be conservative, because when I last went off the tabs to test my nasal spray, I tanked, regressing to pre-MeCbl state, and it wasn't any fun at all. But it was so clear from day one that the vaping was extremely effective that I stopped using tabs completely.

After day 4, my reaction seemed to even out. The vaping effect was less noticeable and my sleep patterns returned to their previous patterns, perhaps with my sleep improved from previous baseline.

I theorize that about this time -- day 5 -- I had adjusted to the higher dose of MeCbl, achieving something like a steady state, getting through what I now suspect was a new level of MeCbl startup reaction.

Steady state continues. I have become more sensitive to my body's desire for MeCbl; my goal is to stay at a high level of saturation.

SOURCE MATERIALS AND APPROXIMATE COSTS:

1. 20MG/ML in 1 ML vials ($15 plus shipping), requires Rx. McGuff Compounding, CA, USA. This compounding pharmacy impressed me. They had pharmacists who spoke willingly and sensibly about their process and testing. They also offered the best possible prices given my priorities. I found that pharmacy prices for MeCbl vary significantly.

2. V2cigs/VMR products (http://www.v2cigs.com/): V2 Battery, charger, blank cartridges. Aprox $75.

3. Vegetable Glycerin. Aprox $7. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0019LWU2K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

4. Propylene Glycol, aprox $13. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I1K0PZG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

4. Distilled water, aprox $1.

5. 20ml syringe to draw from vial and as applicator; given to me by doctor, so not sure of costs, but should be cheap. (Note each syringe dispenses 25-30 drops, more than the estimated 1 drop per 1ML, probably because the sodium chloride in the MeCbl makes the liquid more viscus.)

COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS:

Vaping at the quality and control of MeCbl that I am is more expensive than tabs. However, given the unambiguous efficacy and start-up experience I had, I now must conclude that my absorption through tabs was far poorer than I had previously believed.

Previously I had been taking 20-25mg of MeCbl tabs (brands Jarrow and Country Life), dissolving slowly in oral mucosa throughout the day, which at 10% should have gained me absorption of about 2mg, similar to the vaping experience. Given that my vaping during this test run was clearly far more powerful at the same expected dose, I now conclude that my tab absorption was far lower than I thought, likely below 2.5%, achieving something like 500mcg daily or less.

So, to achieve the same level of absorption with tabs -- if that is even possible, which I don't know -- I would need to take 4 times as many tabs as I am taking now -- 20+ tabs a day, which is a full bottle of tabs every 3 days, raising the price to levels comparable to vaping costs.

It's pretty clear it's cheaper than injections.

I estimate my ongoing costs of MeCbl and liquid ingredients, not including the vaping hardware, at some $2-3/day. Given the efficacy and results, I am entirely willing to pay the price of a cheap cappuccino for these results.

I allowed for and expected lossage in this test-run. As I become more familiar with the vaping tech, base, etc., I expect the process to become more reliable and believe I will need less MeCbl, making it more cost effective.


OPEN QUESTIONS:

1. Best base materials and mix to use in vaper. I am still experimenting with the vaping technology base, ingredients and proportions. Different mixes feel, taste, gunk up the cartridge mix, and draw differently. To my surprise different brands of VG also perform differently. My current formula: 10ml VG + 3ml distilled water, + 1 drop per cartridge PG. There are a number of pros and cons between VG & PG, some of which are listed here [2].

2. How much MeCbl for each cartridge fill. Currently using one drop. Because of the high concentration of MeCbl in each drop (and the efficacy) I use one (small) drop per cartridge along with the base. Or less -- as part of my experimentation of the base, when the cartridge starts to empty out, I'll add more base, to mix down the MeCbl. I am not yet sure how much I need.

2. Safety of vaping technology. Recent articles about heavy metals from vaping via e-cig concern me, and I want to know more. The study is based on one brand, which is not the brand I use, which could very much matter, but I don't have enough data to guess; would welcome any insight on this. [3]

3. Long-term safety of process, specifically to my lungs. So far so good, but two weeks is a short time, and my lungs are also part of this experiment. Time will tell.

FINAL COMMENTS:

I have no intention of going back to tabs if I can avoid it -- it is clear to me that pulmonary delivery of MeCbl is highly effective, and as the study indicated, as effective as injections [1]. I do have questions and concerns about e-cig vaping technology, though very much appreciate the transportability of the device, and will be paying close attention to how the industry responds to this recent study. (I contacted the manufacturer of my device and asked; I will relate any response.) I welcome any comments from others using this or other vaping technology.


DISCLAIMER:

All the standard disclaimers apply: this is my opinion and experience only. I have some expert resources now to help me with some of this, including medical professionals, but I didn't always, and when I didn't, I used posts like this one to inform my decisions, so I'm aware that people reading this may be using what I say to guide their own actions, which is why I post my data as transparently as I do. My choices are my own, and I recognize that no external resource can substitute for my own close attention to my body. Your mileage might vary. A lot. I like cappuccinos.

REFERENCES:

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248818/pdf/tacca00127-0101.pdf

[2] https://www.misthub.com/blog/propylene-glycol-pg-vs-vegetable-glycerin-vg-e-juice/

[3] http://news.usc.edu/67718/e-cigarette-smoke-found-to-contain-toxic-metals/

[4] http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylcobalamin-inhalation-therapy.33045/

 

[Freddd]

I've read this and see some real misunderstandings. The dramatically incorrect info about Cyanocobalamin could be dangerous. One comment was about firefighters giving 5 gram doses (up to 15 or 20 grams) in order to make Cyanocobalamin. The purpose isn't to create CyCbl because it is so great. The purpose is to remove deadly amounts of cyanide from the body rapidly. The HyCbl is further oxidized by the cyanide which disables MeCbl, AdoCbl (the only two active forms in humans) but in being converted to CyCbl for excretion it ceases being a deadly poison. However, as HyCbl maintains methyltrap started by the cyanide for another week or two, MS type demyelination takes place. The only chance to avoid MS type demyelination would be to use MeCbl to flush out the cyanide instead. The cyanide is produced by burning plastics in a house fire.

Another person says vaping MeCbl is superior because it doesn't get excreted by the kidneys. The original referenced studies from the early 50s (very interesting by the way, thank you for posting) states that it used the B12 excreted in the urine to verify absorption. BINGO. So much for that piece of misinformation.

To accurately describe the pharmacokinetic properties of B12, there has to be at least 10 compartments. There are body tissue, body serum, organs, cerebral spinal fluid and cerebral tissue for each AdoCbl and MeCbl. Generally, B12 can't get to any other compartments without first going into serum, though there are exceptions. Then in serum the b12 is vulnerable to kidney excretion After absorption the serum halflife of MeCbl is measured to be 20-50 minutes. At 12 hours the serum halflife is about 4 hours. For the next 36 hours the average serum halflife is 12.9 hours. By that time over 99% of the absorbed B12 is excreted by the kidneys, regardless of path of absorption. All the B12 that goes into other compartments, organs, tissues, CSF, have different halflifes.

Another myth mentioned is the idea of "charging up the liver" with a couple of doses of MeCbl. In a person with a typical full body load of MeCbl it is said to be 5mg. These people have typically have no B12 deficiency symptoms and no response at all to any form or amount of b12. Because in the 40s and 50s there was the assumption that the only reason 2.5mg of b12 would be in the liver was as a "storage" depot. Actually most of the B12 in the liver is working B12, producing ATP for detoxing all sorts of toxins with enzymes, one of the main functions of the liver. The small collection of b12 that isn’t working is a sewage lagoon accumulating mostly non-active cobalamins via HTC III for excretion in the bile.

A sewage lagoon is not a water reservoir except in California during a drought and Las Vegas fountains. When the serum level is 15,000pg/ml or something else high in the absence of supplementation, it is the result of liver disease and damage with the tissues breaking down and cell death releasing the b12 to the body. That is the only way B12 returns to circulation, cell death (all tissues) and liver disease. So there is no “charging up”. There is no effect from “recharging”. The effect that occurs is when an equilibrium is reached in the serum at a given dose and the effect fades away.

Further there is no evidence in the research that a person who has reached a damaging low level of B12 ever returns to a well working enterohepatic recirculation loop and shows no need to continue b12. There are lots of repeated assumptions but no evidence. They never reach that state where active b12 has no effect. There is no practical field experience, ie the thousands of people I have observed doing all versions of various b12 protocols have never returned to the pristine state of healthy functioning b12. MeCbl deficiency symptoms start to show up in 3 days since last dose. It takes 30-60 days for AdoCbl deficiency symptoms top start showing up. In both cases at that point there is mild to not so mild “startup” all over again. If there is no deficiency there is nothing to start up and hence no effect.

So how much b12 is normally contained in the blood? Somebody with 1000pg/ml (top end of so called range” has a real genuine 5 mcg in their blood. Eating a steak dinner with 3 mcg absorbed boosts the serum level by 600pg/ml if it all hit the serum at once. Absorbing 100mcg increases the serum level by 20,000pg/ml for a minute. And that is enough to notice for a person who is deficient and it is enough to turn on widespread healing in the body because it is delivered to many cells needing it without going through the keyhole of the HTC II delivery system. ONLY AdoCbl and MeCbl are useful in that distribution by diffusion mode. A person taking a 1000 mcg sublingual if held for 1-2 hours against tissue will typically absorb 100-250mcg.

A 1000mcg IM injection of MeCbl raises the serum level to 200,000pg/ml for a few minutes if it were absorbed instantly. A 10mg subcutaneous injection 3 times a day will raise the serum level, around the clock, to 100,000-200,000 pg/ml. And that is the magic range in which the MeCbl/AdoCbl can directly penetrate by diffusion into the CSF in sufficient quantity to stimulate (allow?, there is uncertainty in the research) neurological healing, remyelinating the nerves. Who needs that for healing? Research shows that people with CFS, FMS, MS, Parkinson’s, Supra Nuclear Palsy and some others have low CSF levels of cobalamin and raised MMA and/or HCY in the CSF. It is those people, with low CSF levels of cobalamin that need high serum levels to get that active B12 into the brain and spinal cord for some healing to occur, as I have had.

So now let’s get to the urine excretion situation description. Based on thousands of injections for me, and verified by several others It takes approximately 1-2 mg injected SC to be visible if one is in methyltrap with glutathione (or cyanide for that matter). It takes about 2.4mg injected SC to be visible in partial methylation block with folic acid. It takes about 5mg injected SC with ample methylfolate and no partial methylation block symptoms for the b12 to be visible in the urine. One can calibrate the toilet by injecting known amounts of b12 into the bowl of clean water. Serum halflife of active b12s depends upon the degree folate effectiveness. It takes more or less 1mg to be clearly visible. So obviously there will likely be no visible b12 in the urine from a 350mcg dose, even put directly in the toilet. It takes tests to detect b12 at those low levels in urine.

 

[skwag]

@aturtles

Thanks so much for the detailed report. I'm glad this is working for you. I'll be taking another run at MB12 inhalation shortly myself, so thanks again.

 

[cman89]

I've read this and see some real misunderstandings. The dramatically incorrect info about Cyanocobalamin could be dangerous. One comment was about firefighters giving 5 gram doses (up to 15 or 20 grams) in order to make Cyanocobalamin. The purpose isn't to create CyCbl because it is so great. The purpose is to remove deadly amounts of cyanide from the body rapidly. The HyCbl is further oxidized by the cyanide which disables MeCbl, AdoCbl (the only two active forms in humans) but in being converted to CyCbl for excretion it ceases being a deadly poison. However, as HyCbl maintains methyltrap started by the cyanide for another week or two, MS type demyelination takes place. The only chance to avoid MS type demyelination would be to use MeCbl to flush out the cyanide instead. The cyanide is produced by burning plastics in a house fire.

Another person says vaping MeCbl is superior because it doesn't get excreted by the kidneys. The original referenced studies from the early 50s (very interesting by the way, thank you for posting) states that it used the B12 excreted in the urine to verify absorption. BINGO. So much for that piece of misinformation.

To accurately describe the pharmacokinetic properties of B12, there has to be at least 10 compartments. There are body tissue, body serum, organs, cerebral spinal fluid and cerebral tissue for each AdoCbl and MeCbl. However, B12 can't get to any other compartments without first going into serum. Then in serum the b12 is vulnerable to kidney excretion After absorption the serum halflife of MeCbl is measured to be 20-50 minutes. At 12 hours the serum halflife is about 4 hours. For the next 36 hours the average serum halflife is 12.9 hours. By that time over 99% of the absorbed B12 is excreted by the kidneys, regardless of path of absorption. All the B12 that goes into other compartments, organs, tissues, CSF, have different halflifes.

Another myth mentioned is the idea of "charging up the liver" with a couple of doses of MeCbl. In a person with a typical full body load of MeCbl it is said to be 5mg. These people have typically have no B12 deficiency symptoms and no response at all to any form or amount of b12. Because in the 40s and 50s there was the assumption that the only reason 2.5mg of b12 would be in the liver was as a "storage" depot. Actually most of the B12 in the liver is working B12, producing ATP for detoxing all sorts of toxins with enzymes, one of the main functions of the liver. The small collection of b12 that isn’t working is a sewage lagoon accumulating mostly non-active cobalamins via HTC III for excretion in the bile.

A sewage lagoon is not a water reservoir except in California during a drought and Las Vegas fountains. When the serum level is 15,000pg/ml or something else high in the absence of supplementation, it is the result of liver disease and damage with the tissues breaking down and cell death releasing the b12 to the body. That is the only way B12 returns to circulation, cell death (all tissues) and liver disease. So there is no “charging up”. There is no effect from “recharging”. The effect that occurs is when an equilibrium is reached in the serum at a given dose and the effect fades away.

Further there is no evidence in the research that a person who has reached a damaging low level of B12 ever returns to a well working enterohepatic recirculation loop and shows no need to continue b12. There are lots of repeated assumptions but no evidence. They never reach that state where active b12 has no effect. There is no practical field experience, ie the thousands of people I have observed doing all versions of various b12 protocols have never returned to the pristine state of healthy functioning b12. MeCbl deficiency symptoms start to show up in 3 days since last dose. It takes 30-60 days for AdoCbl deficiency symptoms top start showing up. In both cases at that point there is mild to not so mild “startup” all over again. If there is no deficiency there is nothing to start up and hence no effect.

So how much b12 is normally contained in the blood? Somebody with 1000pg/ml (top end of so called range” has a real genuine 5 mcg in their blood. Eating a steak dinner with 3 mcg absorbed boosts the serum level by 600pg/ml if it all hit the serum at once. Absorbing 100mcg increases the serum level by 20,000pg/ml for a minute. And that is enough to notice for a person who is deficient and it is enough to turn on widespread healing in the body because it is delivered to many cells needing it without going through the keyhole of the HTC II delivery system. ONLY AdoCbl and MeCbl are useful in that distribution by diffusion mode. A person taking a 1000 mcg sublingual if held for 1-2 hours against tissue will typically absorb 100-250mcg.

A 1000mcg IM injection of MeCbl raises the serum level to 200,000pg/ml for a few minutes if it were absorbed instantly. A 10mg subcutaneous injection 3 times a day will raise the serum level, around the clock, to 100,000-200,000 pg/ml. And that is the magic range in which the MeCbl/AdoCbl can directly penetrate by diffusion into the CSF in sufficient quantity to stimulate (allow?, there is uncertainty in the research) neurological healing, remyelinating the nerves. Who needs that for healing? Research shows that people with CFS, FMS, MS, Parkinson’s, Supra Nuclear Palsy and some others have low CSF levels of cobalamin and raised MMA and/or HCY in the CSF. It is those people, with low CSF levels of cobalamin that need high serum levels to get that active B12 into the brain and spinal cord for some healing to occur, as I have had.

So now let’s get to the urine excretion situation description. Based on thousands of injections for me, and verified by several others It takes approximately 1-2 mg injected SC to be visible if one is in methyltrap with glutathione (or cyanide for that matter). It takes about 2.4mg injected SC to be visible in partial methylation block with folic acid. It takes about 5mg injected SC with ample methylfolate and no partial methylation block symptoms for the b12 to be visible in the urine. One can calibrate the toilet by injecting known amounts of b12 into the bowl of clean water. Serum halflife of active b12s depends upon the degree folate effectiveness. It takes more or less 1mg to be clearly visible. So obviously there will likely be no visible b12 in the urine from a 350mcg dose, even put directly in the toilet. It takes tests to detect b12 at those low levels in urine.

I know this is lazy, but its the best way I can get a question answered directly from the source. ie, You. My CFS symptoms are mild compared to some, but I do struggle with some issues that come up on these forums often. I read and re-read the Methylation protocol info from you and Rich, and I used a trial version that you recommended. Unfortunately, it still was utilizing the Jarrow b right, but i did notice results on my trial, and now I am ready to try again with your updated info at my disposal. I have but one question: Why do you have two brands of Methyl b12 recommended in your list of supps? I am not understanding the significance of that

 

[ahmo]

Yikes, I've missed some posts. Have to get caught up on aturtles and Fred. @aturtles thank you for this comprehensive report

Meanwhile, I came to post this warning about charging vape devices on your computer. And, FWIW, when I asked my inhalation therapist brother, he was not so impressed with the idea of inhaling glycerine. As it turns out, due to expediency in my current situation, I'll be trying transdermal oil before I get onto vaping.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/nov/21/e-cigarettes-malware-computers

 

[South]

@aturtles You are amazing. If we had a decent number of lab researchers in this world as organized as you are, and as able to write as clear and relevant reports as you can, our world's health problems would be far easier to research.

The sample size being only one was made clear -- and despite that tiny sample size, your results post is extremely useful, thanks to how you organized and wrote it.

 

[aturtles]

And, FWIW, when I asked my inhalation therapist brother, he was not so impressed with the idea of inhaling glycerine.

@ahmo, food grade Vegetable Glycerin in particular? Can you say anything more about this? I'm very interested in opinions about what I'm putting into my lungs.

For what it's worth, I've stopped including even a small amount of Propylene Glycol in my base mix; I was finding that it annoyed my lungs. I understand from a bit of poking around that a small percent of users are allergic to PG. Don't know if I am. I may try it again in the future, but at the moment, only using VG and distilled water, using "Now Solutions" brand of VG, which behaves differently than the first brand I tried, so I suspect that there are variances in VG quality.

 

[skwag]

@aturtles

About PG.. Have you tried vaping straight PG? You might be able determine if you have a problem with it once and for all. The reason I bring it up is because I have found PG to work better in a couple ways. First it doesn't seem to gunk up the wick nearly as much, so I don't get any burnt taste or dry hits. Second it seems that the vapor settles in my lungs much quicker. I don't have to hold my breath much at all. This property is well known and used when someone is looking for a "stealth vape," which means no exhaled vapor.

Edit: Oh and I forgot to mention PG also has some bactericidal properties. I am sure there are many articles but here is one.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2135415/

 

[Gondwanaland]

Why do you have two brands of Methyl b12 recommended in your list of supps? I am not understanding the significance of that

I am not Freddd, but from what I have read here, he tried several brands and these two were the ones yielding the best results. You can go with either one. I hope this answers your question.

 

[Freddd]

I know this is lazy, but its the best way I can get a question answered directly from the source. ie, You. My CFS symptoms are mild compared to some, but I do struggle with some issues that come up on these forums often. I read and re-read the Methylation protocol info from you and Rich, and I used a trial version that you recommended. Unfortunately, it still was utilizing the Jarrow b right, but i did notice results on my trial, and now I am ready to try again with your updated info at my disposal. I have but one question: Why do you have two brands of Methyl b12 recommended in your list of supps? I am not understanding the significance of that

Hi Cman89,

I have both mentioned because they are different from each other but appear superior to others I have tried. I will describe what that means. I'm 11 years into b12 etc trials. I don't have hundreds of symptoms and dozens that react within hours along with the hypersensitivity that I used to have.

At that time I could try one sublingual and know in 60 minutes. Comparative testing was short term and long term. As the easy to affect things disappeared I had fewer and fewer ways to detect B12 activity because now instead of learning how "good" a pill is, I watch for return of symptoms to see how "bad" the pill is. Then as soon as I see return of symptoms I go back to my "standard" and experience some degree of "startup". Methylfolate is a whole different matter.

Now the situation is with the two brands named, and it used to be Enzymatic Therapy and the Jarrow methyl B12. Each one could provide a little "startup over the other. Together they healed more than either alone. They also added to the quality of my injectable B12 results. Now its the Enzymatic Therapy and Country Life Methylb12 5mg that have that characteristic. However, I had a problem with doing the long term trial of the Country Life, I couldn't make it last long enough to get sufficient absorption into my CNS, by the urine colorimetry and by actual trial. I had a regression of neurological healing and it could just as easily be because it dissolved too fast.

In testing these things it is very important to keep in mind that we have at least 2 compartments for each AdoCbl and MeCbl that we can test by relative startup effects. So we need to remember that we need that the body needs to heal and we need what the CNS/brain-cord needs to heal. That may be two different brands of MeCbl. I found two brands best for my healing, often adding a third and even a 4th at times. I also continued the two brands while injecting.

So we are looking for relative differences in the body and relative differences in the brain. The best indication of that in the brain short term is the neurological brightening for me. For me, the ONLY MeCbl batches or brands that work for healing my neuropathic symptoms in the longer term are the MeCbl batches/brands that in the shorter term cause neurological brightening. It's the same with AdoCbl except that it's effects are slightly different. In 11 years I have tried at least 40 brands. Potentially a brand can change each time they buy a new batch of crystal MeCbl or change processing or something.

 

[aturtles]

@Freddd, do you have any thoughts on vaping to put MeCbl into the system, as I have been doing? It seems to be working for me, but it's only been 2.5 weeks. The start-up was tremendously clear, but as you say, after that it's a matter of looking for the return of negative symptoms, and seeing how they are connected. (Like today's brainfog and energy dip, which could be any number of things.) Start-up was so effective I stopped using tabs, but your post makes me wonder if tabs might provide something additional. As always, I am keenly interested in any thoughts you might have.

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd, do you have any thoughts on vaping to put MeCbl into the system, as I have been doing? It seems to be working for me, but it's only been 2.5 weeks. The start-up was tremendously clear, but as you say, after that it's a matter of looking for the return of negative symptoms, and seeing how they are connected. (Like today's brainfog and energy dip, which could be any number of things.) Start-up was so effective I stopped using tabs, but your post makes me wonder if tabs might provide something additional. As always, I am keenly interested in any thoughts you might have.

Hi Aturtles,
Does that have anything to do with "Turtles, turtles, turtles, all the way down or "Are you a turtle" or maybe "Are you a turtle all the way down?" (just a little attempt at humor).

When I started MeCbl as a sublingual, I started out getting responses starting in 5 minutes the very first day. That has to be at perhaps 5-10 mcg absorbed. As the year progressed it took an hour to get noticeable results and then 90 minutes with 15mg in mouth. At that point I ceased having any further noticeable effect from sublingual doses under 30-50mg or injections of 7.5mg or more. There was a CNS only effect at 7.5mg SC or equivalent mucosal absorption which is verifiable via urine colorimetry.

As I have said, when equilibrium is reached at a given does, the dose stops having noticeable immediate response. Peer reviewed research has placed the dose proportionate MeCbl doses in the range of 1 mcg to 5mg injected. All of these are based on methods that absorb the B12 such that it ends up in the blood serum.
Now another thing I have is that the perception of effects can be based in part on the rate of onset. A fast absorption, ie IM injection versus SC injection can have more immediate effect noticed than a slower more diffuse onset such as sublingual or SC. Now all that describes body onset.

A substantially different situation is the CNS and CSF. The central system is protected by the brain blood barrier. Unfortunately, people with CFS, FMS, MS, Parkinson's, ALS, Supra Nuclear Palsy and others are overly protected from cobalamins. There is some genetic? variation that doesn't allow entry and retention of enough MeCbl/AdoCbl into the CSF. Intrathecal injections have been done in studies. This is an invasive and potentially dangerous procedure. I have been discussing this with my pain docs, as they do spinal draws and medications. They are right now at the "convince me" stage. I haven't convinced myself yet so there it sits. One of the things to consider is that NOTHING can be in that injection but MeCbl and sterile saline, no preservatives or flavorings or any other stuff that might be in an injection solution for the nervous system.

Now to vaping. Hey, in Colorado vaping THC or even whole extract from a nice Skunk variety was great. That has to be cleaner than burning vegetable matter. But I would be wary of all sorts of things put into lungs. Also, is it scalable? Can a mg/hour be absorbed to keep that serum level between 100,000 and 200,000 pg/ml to keep that CSF level up? With 3x10mg or 4x7.5mg SC injections (30mg/24hrs) one averages 1.25mg per hour distributed in the serum. There is no direct feed from lungs to CSF.

It’s important to remember, there are two compartments, the body which might very well get along fine on a few hundred mcg of MeCbl and the CSF/CNS that needs some unknown amount actually absorbed into the CSF, which requires a whole lot more in the blood serum to cause that. Having done doses to 60mg 3 times a day and seen that they are no different than 10mg 3 times a day there is a clear limit of some kind, whether in the diffusion absorption or potential activity, of some kind.

I am, as always running trials. I started a new one a few days ago that may be useful. It has good short term response. Now the trick is to see if that makes a healing difference for the longer run. I’ve been running trials since 1979. Some things have worked out, some haven’t.

Good luck.

 

[aturtles]

Does that have anything to do with "Turtles, turtles, turtles, all the way down or "Are you a turtle" or maybe "Are you a turtle all the way down?" (just a little attempt at humor).

@Freddd, yes. It is turtles all the way down, except that there are also the elephants. (I am happy to explain the origins of my name in PM if you wish.)

A few followups... I've trimmed your post a bit to keep this tighter.

As I have said, when equilibrium is reached at a given does, the dose stops having noticeable immediate response.

This comment of yours (across multiple posts) has helped me tremendously to understand and adjust my approach. I now look for dips, specific signs of MeCbl dip. For me these are specific emotional shifts that I used to think were just the way I was put together psychologically/emotionally. Turns out it's more biochemical.

One of the things to consider is that NOTHING can be in that injection but MeCbl and sterile saline, no preservatives or flavorings or any other stuff that might be in an injection solution for the nervous system.

I know you're talking about Intrathecal injections here -- a whole different level of risk from vaping -- but I did the same: my MeCbl for vaping has no additives but for sterile saline (see my previous post for details) because I found from a previous MeCbl vaping test with preservatives/additives that it affected me negatively.

Of course, for vaping there is still the base mix itself, which I keep adjusting. Currently I am using 50/50 vegetable glycerin to distilled water, trying to minimize the VG. Since the vaping mix has to be somewhat viscous to work, I'm considering adding pure sodium chloride to the mix to see if that might help me reduce the need for VG. Any thoughts you might have on the safety of VG, or inhaling more sodium chloride are welcome. My ideal would be to inhale only MeCbl, to help me isolate the effects.

Now to vaping. Hey, in Colorado vaping THC or even whole extract from a nice Skunk variety was great. That has to be cleaner than burning vegetable matter. But I would be wary of all sorts of things put into lungs.

I'm not a smoker of any sort, so this is not merely a better alternative for me -- it's my attempt to get MeCbl into my system at injection potency levels.

Which is why I went for sterile, no additives, and verifiable provenance (lab-created) MeCbl. But perhaps you mean something different? Do you have reason to suspect MeCbl itself in the lungs is a bad idea?

Also, is it scalable? Can a mg/hour be absorbed to keep that serum level between 100,000 and 200,000 pg/ml to keep that CSF level up? With 3x10mg or 4x7.5mg SC injections (30mg/24hrs) one averages 1.25mg per hour distributed in the serum. There is no direct feed from lungs to CSF.

It’s important to remember, there are two compartments, the body which might very well get along fine on a few hundred mcg of MeCbl and the CSF/CNS that needs some unknown amount actually absorbed into the CSF, which requires a whole lot more in the blood serum to cause that. Having done doses to 60mg 3 times a day and seen that they are no different than 10mg 3 times a day there is a clear limit of some kind, whether in the diffusion absorption or potential activity, of some kind.

It seems to me you are suggesting there are two open questions here with regard to vaping MeCbl:

1. Can vaping scale up MeCbl in the blood serum, or is there an upper limit of pulmonary absorption; and

2. Can vaping put sufficient MeCbl into the blood serum to affect the CSF

I'd be quite interested in devising ways to explore this. Your suggestions would be most welcome. How, for example, might I tell if CSF is affected?

To be clear here, all my test results are currently subjective. I know you do objective testing. I don't yet. Perhaps I should.

In any case, my experience with vaping has been that it put more MeCbl into my system than any amount of sublingual tabs I've used, and was similar in efficacy to the IM and SC injections I've had. That's why I'm still experimenting with it, because of how stunningly effective it seems to be.

I am, as always running trials. I started a new one a few days ago that may be useful. It has good short term response. Now the trick is to see if that makes a healing difference for the longer run. I’ve been running trials since 1979. Some things have worked out, some haven’t.

I'm eager to hear about your most recent trial. Have you posted about it yet? If it's relevant to vaping, hope you'll consider putting a link here.

Good luck.

Thank you so very much. I'm so very grateful for all your help, here and across the forum.

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd,

yes. It is turtles all the way down, except that there are also the elephants. (I am happy to explain the origins of my name in PM if you wish.)

A few followups... I've trimmed your post a bit to keep this tighter.

I'm not a smoker of any sort, so this is not merely a better alternative for me -- it's my attempt to get MeCbl into my system at injection potency levels.

This comment of yours (across multiple posts) has helped me tremendously to understand and adjust my approach. I now look for dips, specific signs of MeCbl dip. For me these are specific emotional shifts that I used to think were just the way I was put together psychologically/emotionally. Turns out it's more biochemical.



I know you're talking about Intrathecal injections here -- a whole different level of risk from vaping -- but I did the same: my MeCbl for vaping has no additives but for sterile saline (see my previous post for details) because I found from a previous MeCbl vaping test with preservatives/additives that it affected me negatively.

Of course, for vaping there is still the base mix itself, which I keep adjusting. Currently I am using 50/50 vegetable glycerin to distilled water, trying to minimize the VG. Since the vaping mix has to be somewhat viscous to work, I'm considering adding pure sodium chloride to the mix to see if that might help me reduce the need for VG. Any thoughts you might have on the safety of VG, or inhaling more sodium chloride are welcome. My ideal would be to inhale only MeCbl, to help me isolate the effects.



I'm not a smoker of any sort, so this is not merely a better alternative for me -- it's my attempt to get MeCbl into my system at injection potency levels.

Which is why I went for sterile, no additives, and verifiable provenance (lab-created) MeCbl. But perhaps you mean something different? Do you have reason to suspect MeCbl itself in the lungs is a bad idea?



It seems to me you are suggesting there are two open questions here with regard to vaping MeCbl:

1. Can vaping scale up MeCbl in the blood serum, or is there an upper limit of pulmonary absorption; and

2. Can vaping put sufficient MeCbl into the blood serum to affect the CSF

I'd be quite interested in devising ways to explore this. Your suggestions would be most welcome. How, for example, might I tell if CSF is affected?

To be clear here, all my test results are currently subjective. I know you do objective testing. I don't yet. Perhaps I should.

In any case, my experience with vaping has been that it put more MeCbl into my system than any amount of sublingual tabs I've used, and was similar in efficacy to the IM and SC injections I've had. That's why I'm still experimenting with it, because of how stunningly effective it seems to be.



I'm eager to hear about your most recent trial. Have you posted about it yet? If it's relevant to vaping, hope you'll consider putting a link here.



Thank you so very much. I'm so very grateful for all your help, here and across the forum.

Hi Aturtles,

yes. It is turtles all the way down, except that there are also the elephants. (I am happy to explain the origins of my name in PM if you wish.)

I'd enjoy hearing that, and about the elephants too.


This comment of yours (across multiple posts) has helped me tremendously to understand and adjust my approach. I now look for dips, specific signs of MeCbl dip. For me these are specific emotional shifts that I used to think were just the way I was put together psychologically/emotionally. Turns out it's more biochemical.

YES! Following the clues. I followed the clues, making dozens of incremental changes is responsible for curing me of FMS and CFS, for now full remission of congestive heart failure, and 90% remission of Subacute Combined degeneration. I described some of my current pains to my pain doc. He asked me my actual level of disability and I said perhaps 5%. Now that is down from 100% 11 years ago. He said to just keep going with what I'm doing as it is clearly working. Moods and personality effects are very biochemical. Part of that is caused by the ratio between MeCbl and AdoCbl in the CNS and of course LCF and Metafolin.

Which is why I went for sterile, no additives, and verifiable provenance (lab-created) MeCbl. But perhaps you mean something different? Do you have reason to suspect MeCbl itself in the lungs is a bad idea?

My comment about NO additives was for intrathecal injection. The potential hazard from MeCbl to epithelial tissues is as a crystal. First, the crystal has edges 1 molecule thick. It is like ground glass in texture. However, as it dissolves that is no problem. The real potential problem I see is if the powdered crystals are used dry it might desiccate the cells it is in contact with it. I have minimal evidence of that in an oral mucosal trial. Otherwise , I think that it is likely safe.

I'm not a smoker of any sort, so this is not merely a better alternative for me -- it's my attempt to get MeCbl into my system at injection potency levels.

When you start that conversation with me I'll tell you about my current trials and discuss the ideas with you. It's not ready for prime time yet.

 

[aturtles]

About PG.. Have you tried vaping straight PG? You might be able determine if you have a problem with it once and for all. The reason I bring it up is because I have found PG to work better in a couple ways. First it doesn't seem to gunk up the wick nearly as much, so I don't get any burnt taste or dry hits. Second it seems that the vapor settles in my lungs much quicker. I don't have to hold my breath much at all. This property is well known and used when someone is looking for a "stealth vape," which means no exhaled vapor.

Edit: Oh and I forgot to mention PG also has some bactericidal properties. I am sure there are many articles but here is one.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2135415/

@skwag: When something bothers my system, I have little incentive to repeat the test. So I have not yet done so. I understand about the bactericidal properties, and I regret not having those advantages. But right now my goal is to reduce VG in the vaping mix as much as possible, to better understand the properties of MeCbl in lungs. Holding my breath a few moments is not a big deal for me, so not an issue.

 

[aturtles]

YES! Following the clues. I followed the clues, making dozens of incremental changes is responsible for curing me of FMS and CFS, for now full remission of congestive heart failure, and 90% remission of Subacute Combined degeneration. I described some of my current pains to my pain doc. He asked me my actual level of disability and I said perhaps 5%. Now that is down from 100% 11 years ago. He said to just keep going with what I'm doing as it is clearly working. Moods and personality effects are very biochemical. Part of that is caused by the ratio between MeCbl and AdoCbl in the CNS and of course LCF and Metafolin.

Excellent! Inspirational, too. And I'm very glad for you.

Frankly, the extent of biochemical affects on my mood continues to stun me. I also have seen tremendous gains in health and energy in the four months I've been doing methylation work. But I've discovered that every day requires attention, and slipping backwards is easy to do.

My comment about NO additives was for intrathecal injection. The potential hazard from MeCbl to epithelial tissues is as a crystal. First, the crystal has edges 1 molecule thick. It is like ground glass in texture. However, as it dissolves that is no problem. The real potential problem I see is if the powdered crystals are used dry it might desiccate the cells it is in contact with it. I have minimal evidence of that in an oral mucosal trial. Otherwise , I think that it is likely safe.

Thank you for the clarification. Dissolved in solution, it should be fine, then. That makes sense.

Still I wonder at the implications of high efficacy of pulmonary absorption; if vaping works as well as I have experienced it to, then couldn't we surmise that other things in the mix could also go into the lungs and hence bloodstream at similar absorption, for good or ill?

 

[skwag]

@skwag: When something bothers my system, I have little incentive to repeat the test. So I have not yet done so. I understand about the bactericidal properties, and I regret not having those advantages. But right now my goal is to reduce VG in the vaping mix as much as possible, to better understand the properties of MeCbl in lungs. Holding my breath a few moments is not a big deal for me, so not an issue.

Understood. I've restarted vaporizer trials nearly a week ago with what I hope are some improvements. Too soon to tell at this point, but it looks promising. My first batch contained 5mg B12/ml e-juice. My current batch is 10mg/ml. I will try 20 mg/ml next. Upping the B12 concentration is one way to reduce the exposure to the other stuff ( VG, PG...)

 

[aturtles]

Understood. I've restarted vaporizer trials nearly a week ago with what I hope are some improvements. Too soon to tell at this point, but it looks promising. My first batch contained 5mg B12/ml e-juice. My current batch is 10mg/ml. I will try 20 mg/ml next. Upping the B12 concentration is one way to reduce the exposure to the other stuff ( VG, PG...)

That's kind of the direction I was going in: increase the potency. What is your exact formula now, per cartridge?