Methylcobalamin Inhalation Therapy
- Thread starter bluewhistled
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@Freddd, could you expand on this please? It sounds like you're saying that with enough B12 in serum, you start to excrete it in urine, and you should see a pink color in the toilet bowl. Correct? I've done some fairly large doses with various delivery methods, including the transdermal oil which seems to be working pretty well, and I've never seen any color change in my urine. (But I never injected more than 3mg per day.) The only colors I am seeing are bright yellow from the additional B vitamins I'm taking.
Is it your goal to increase serum levels until you see pink in the urine, so you're certain you have high enough levels for healing?
Is it your goal to increase serum levels until you see pink in the urine, so you're certain you have high enough levels for healing?
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FWIW, it took me several months of daily 5mg injections before I ever saw any of the pink "spillover" color in my urine.
Interesting. I'm doing 3x/day of the ado/me oil, which works out to just about 2mg/day methyl and 5.6mg/day adenosyl. I've been doing that level for most of the last 4 months. Greg claims 80% uptake, even higher than injection. No signs of technicolor pee so far... 
Interesting. I'm doing 3x/day of the ado/me oil, which works out to just about 2mg/day methyl and 5.6mg/day adenosyl. I've been doing that level for most of the last 4 months. Greg claims 80% uptake, even higher than injection. No signs of technicolor pee so far...
even higher than injection
Nonsense. Injection has 100% absorption. There is nowhere else to go. In a subcutaneous injection I can watch as the cherry disappears. I have made some 7000 + injections to my abdomen. If 20% remained I would have the skin color of Hell Boy. Nothing absorbs more completely. Now for the visibility issue. Fill a syringe with 20mg. Inject 1mg at a time into the fresh filled toilet and see how many mgs you need for a given level of coloring. Now get a fresh bowl of water. Leave a fresh dose of urine in it and repeat the 20mg test, 1mg at a time. You could take digital pictures of both. Then load a photo shop type program and see the color as it varies. You can use this as a digital color meter, for both fresh water and urine. This is much more precise than a strictly eyeball approach and probably more sensitive though it won't give any distinctions less than 1/3 of a doubling of color density (a Just Noticeable Difference at 50th %ile).
However, time uptake is preferable. Let us say it produces 50,000pg/ml for hours instead of 1,000,000pg/ml for 10 minutes. Tissue and especially CNS uptake is much better with the maintained level than a short bolus.
For me with folic acid in body, it took 1mg IM or 2.5mg SC to be barely noticeable, no Technicolor at all. Being in folate adequacy 10mg injection SC is a couple of increments above just barely noticeable for me now. Remember, B12 has a 20-50 minute serum half life upon entry into so if it is seen at all it is usually only once for a bulk injection. Transdermal absorption takes hours. There is no bolus to be excreted rapidly. To be naked eye visible in the situation you are in, and if your folate is fully adequate I estimate that it would take totally absorbed daily dose of approximately 30-50mg. With folate deficiency it might take 10-20mg a day total absorbed dose. If you want to see lurid Technicolor urine try a 100mg injection or coat your whole body to look like Hell Boy.
Hi GaryFritz,
My goal is to achieve high enough levels of CSF-CNS cobalamins in the right balance to reverse the demyelinations. That takes me an estimated serum level of 100,000 to 200,000 pg/ml 24/7 of a 5 star MeCbl and AdoCbl in comparable quantity once a week. The need for AdoCbl compared to MeCbl is at least bimodal in relative quantities and frequency of dose.
My goal is to achieve high enough levels of CSF-CNS cobalamins in the right balance to reverse the demyelinations. That takes me an estimated serum level of 100,000 to 200,000 pg/ml 24/7 of a 5 star MeCbl and AdoCbl in comparable quantity once a week. The need for AdoCbl compared to MeCbl is at least bimodal in relative quantities and frequency of dose.
I believe the idea was that injection spikes the levels but may not deliver the entire dose to TCII transporters before it hits its half-life and is flushed from the body, whereas supposedly the oil loads up the TCII more effectively -- e.g. your 50k pg/ml for hours vs. 1M pg/ml for 10 minutes. Greg says they have documented 80% utilization in animal studies. Or I may have misunderstood him.
I wish I knew how to map "x mg injection, or y mg via transdermal oil," into pg/ml. I don't, so I use my symptoms as a gauge. I take enough to make the symptoms go away, and then some.
But it sounds like you're saying I won't see the pink tint in my urine. I believe I have sufficient folate -- I avoid folic acid except in occasional wheat flour products, and I take about 1.2mg/day of methylfolate -- and I'm not taking anywhere near the 10mg bolus dosages you're talking about.
I wish I knew how to map "x mg injection, or y mg via transdermal oil," into pg/ml. I don't, so I use my symptoms as a gauge. I take enough to make the symptoms go away, and then some.
But it sounds like you're saying I won't see the pink tint in my urine. I believe I have sufficient folate -- I avoid folic acid except in occasional wheat flour products, and I take about 1.2mg/day of methylfolate -- and I'm not taking anywhere near the 10mg bolus dosages you're talking about.
HI Garyfritz,
I have no idea of what the transdermal oil absorption rate is but injection, both IM and SC is 100% which can't be exceeded. Depending which study or combination of studies, and dose sizes involved, a small dose of under 125mcg oral dose with 10mcg absorbed saturating the TC2 to HTC2 is claimed to be 200pg/ml (straight math) to 100pg/ml (allowing for tissue transport). A Danish study I think it was a few years ago that 25mcg was sufficient to saturate the TC2 and looked like it was positioning itself in support of Codex Alimentarius that would limit b12 supplements to 25mcg without prescription.. A disagreeing American study a few years later showed that oral doses of 125mcg of CyCbl were required to saturate the TC2.
So if something claims to increase the serum level by 600mcg, that is what one might get in a steak dinner, and maybe 6 times that with liver and 3 times that of liver with clams. That is 3-6 mcg. According to the many trials I have done one needs about 100mcg absorbed to serum (a 1000mcg sublingual, more or less) unprotected by TC2 to diffuse into all the cells that need it rather than be distributed by an inbuilt distribution system giving it to some tissues and depriving others.
But it sounds like you're saying I won't see the pink tint in my urine. I believe I have sufficient folate
Right, you won't see it in your urine but a digital color meter might, and I do subcutaneous injections, not IM bolus which are absorbed 100% in 30 or so minutes, but SC that releases about 75% of the dose in 8 hours and the rest over up to 36 hours. So with 3 such doses per day I get a very even serum level and maintain CNS penetration 24/7. I can feel it if it falls below a certain level.
I have no idea of what the transdermal oil absorption rate is but injection, both IM and SC is 100% which can't be exceeded. Depending which study or combination of studies, and dose sizes involved, a small dose of under 125mcg oral dose with 10mcg absorbed saturating the TC2 to HTC2 is claimed to be 200pg/ml (straight math) to 100pg/ml (allowing for tissue transport). A Danish study I think it was a few years ago that 25mcg was sufficient to saturate the TC2 and looked like it was positioning itself in support of Codex Alimentarius that would limit b12 supplements to 25mcg without prescription.. A disagreeing American study a few years later showed that oral doses of 125mcg of CyCbl were required to saturate the TC2.
So if something claims to increase the serum level by 600mcg, that is what one might get in a steak dinner, and maybe 6 times that with liver and 3 times that of liver with clams. That is 3-6 mcg. According to the many trials I have done one needs about 100mcg absorbed to serum (a 1000mcg sublingual, more or less) unprotected by TC2 to diffuse into all the cells that need it rather than be distributed by an inbuilt distribution system giving it to some tissues and depriving others.
But it sounds like you're saying I won't see the pink tint in my urine. I believe I have sufficient folate
Right, you won't see it in your urine but a digital color meter might, and I do subcutaneous injections, not IM bolus which are absorbed 100% in 30 or so minutes, but SC that releases about 75% of the dose in 8 hours and the rest over up to 36 hours. So with 3 such doses per day I get a very even serum level and maintain CNS penetration 24/7. I can feel it if it falls below a certain level.
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Obviously 100% goes into your body. But 100% doesn't necessarily get USED. If you can turn your urine pink, that indicates some of it is being flushed out unused. Assuming you're not at the pink-urine overflow stage, would you say 100% of the injected B12 does eventually get used? Or does some of it get lost at any level because it doesn't get used before the body flushes it, maybe just not enough to be visible?
Did you drop a digit there? A typical human has around 5000ml of blood. 10mcg / 5000ml = 2000pg/ml, according to Google.
I believe I'm getting a very similar effect with the oil. I'm doing about 0.625 mg meB12 and 1.875 mg adoB12, 3x/day. The oil is supposed to take roughly 8 hours to fully assimilate, probably on a similar 75% schedule like your injection, so it should be keeping my levels high 24/7. Probably not as high as your injections (I think you inject a lot more than I get in the oil), but high enough to keep my symptoms at bay. I definitely feel it if it drops below the critical level. It's possible I'd do better with a higher dose, but I don't have the level of damage you have.
Did you drop a digit there? A typical human has around 5000ml of blood. 10mcg / 5000ml = 2000pg/ml, according to Google.
I believe I'm getting a very similar effect with the oil. I'm doing about 0.625 mg meB12 and 1.875 mg adoB12, 3x/day. The oil is supposed to take roughly 8 hours to fully assimilate, probably on a similar 75% schedule like your injection, so it should be keeping my levels high 24/7. Probably not as high as your injections (I think you inject a lot more than I get in the oil), but high enough to keep my symptoms at bay. I definitely feel it if it drops below the critical level. It's possible I'd do better with a higher dose, but I don't have the level of damage you have.
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Hi Gary,
Let's see. I'm an old sliderule guy and dropping a decimal place or 3 is very easy. So let's do the calculation in steps. I have my Pickett N3ES dual base powerlog exponential and I also have an N4ES. The difference is one has Loglog0 to Loglog3 and the other LL1 to LL4 scales. I use Excel these days as my hands get worse.
1mcg = 1,000,000 picograms
adult blood supply approx. 5 L = 5,000ml
1,000,000pg/5,000ml = 200pg/ml
to take your 10mcg example then 10x200 = 2000 which is what you got. I was doing the calculation for 1mcg and you for 10mcg and so your result is 10x mine. I don't see how our numbers disagree.
I have used mucosal absorption for 11 years. That too goes through the epithelial tissue. Does it matter to being picked up by TC2 which epithelial tissue allows the b12 through? I would be interested in seeing that. However, I doubt that it matters I did a lot of healing of the body on sublingual /buccal absorption. It works well. The problem is that studies show that people with FMS, CFS, MS, ALS, Parkinson's, Supra Nuclear Palsy and probably some others have low CSF cobalamin and elevated CSF MMA and/or Hcy. There is a documented difference in transfer and/or retention of B12 in the CSF. In a Japanese study of intrathecal injections of 2.5mg of MeCbl in people with diabetic neuropathy, the elevated level of B12 lasted from less than 3 months to more than 4 years. The effects last as long as the elevated level lasts.
A person would look like Hell Boy to get 30mg into serum at 1.25mg/hour transdermally.
In a series of trials I and some others doing injections did a series of injections to see if there was a threshold of "upregulated neurological healing" (as it was put in the Japanese high dose trials). I found in this trial and repeated frequently that the threshold of effect in the CNS of this kind required an injection >6.0mg and <=7.5mg. That wore off in 5-6 hours. I found that 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg injections daily 6-8 hours apart provided 24/7 effectiveness. Another man found he could go with 2 x 15mg daily. I can't. As that trickles into the blood at an average rate of 1.25mg/hour around the clock. I can see color normally 24/7 in my urine. The relative amounts depends upon relative active folate level.
Let's see. I'm an old sliderule guy and dropping a decimal place or 3 is very easy. So let's do the calculation in steps. I have my Pickett N3ES dual base powerlog exponential and I also have an N4ES. The difference is one has Loglog0 to Loglog3 and the other LL1 to LL4 scales. I use Excel these days as my hands get worse.
1mcg = 1,000,000 picograms
adult blood supply approx. 5 L = 5,000ml
1,000,000pg/5,000ml = 200pg/ml
to take your 10mcg example then 10x200 = 2000 which is what you got. I was doing the calculation for 1mcg and you for 10mcg and so your result is 10x mine. I don't see how our numbers disagree.
I have used mucosal absorption for 11 years. That too goes through the epithelial tissue. Does it matter to being picked up by TC2 which epithelial tissue allows the b12 through? I would be interested in seeing that. However, I doubt that it matters I did a lot of healing of the body on sublingual /buccal absorption. It works well. The problem is that studies show that people with FMS, CFS, MS, ALS, Parkinson's, Supra Nuclear Palsy and probably some others have low CSF cobalamin and elevated CSF MMA and/or Hcy. There is a documented difference in transfer and/or retention of B12 in the CSF. In a Japanese study of intrathecal injections of 2.5mg of MeCbl in people with diabetic neuropathy, the elevated level of B12 lasted from less than 3 months to more than 4 years. The effects last as long as the elevated level lasts.
A person would look like Hell Boy to get 30mg into serum at 1.25mg/hour transdermally.
In a series of trials I and some others doing injections did a series of injections to see if there was a threshold of "upregulated neurological healing" (as it was put in the Japanese high dose trials). I found in this trial and repeated frequently that the threshold of effect in the CNS of this kind required an injection >6.0mg and <=7.5mg. That wore off in 5-6 hours. I found that 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg injections daily 6-8 hours apart provided 24/7 effectiveness. Another man found he could go with 2 x 15mg daily. I can't. As that trickles into the blood at an average rate of 1.25mg/hour around the clock. I can see color normally 24/7 in my urine. The relative amounts depends upon relative active folate level.
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Oh lord, you still use your old Pickett!? I lost mine decades ago!
(Nifty trick: enter "1 mcg / 5000 ml in pg / ml" into Google. Shazam, 200 pg/ml. Or convert it to pennyweights per cubic furlong if you want!!)
OK, you said 10 mcg absorbed so that's what I calculated. We just had a different starting point.
Wow. That's about 16x the dosage I'm using. I'd have to bathe in the oil to get that much! Hopefully my lower levels are enough to repair / prevent my less-severe damage. It was like pulling teeth to get my doctor to increase my injected dosage to 1mg/day, so I'd never get 30mg/day from her.
Do you think those huge levels are necessary / recommended for people with less severe damage?
(Nifty trick: enter "1 mcg / 5000 ml in pg / ml" into Google. Shazam, 200 pg/ml. Or convert it to pennyweights per cubic furlong if you want!!)
OK, you said 10 mcg absorbed so that's what I calculated. We just had a different starting point.
Wow. That's about 16x the dosage I'm using. I'd have to bathe in the oil to get that much!
Hopefully my lower levels are enough to repair / prevent my less-severe damage. It was like pulling teeth to get my doctor to increase my injected dosage to 1mg/day, so I'd never get 30mg/day from her.Do you think those huge levels are necessary / recommended for people with less severe damage?
Oh lord, you still use your old Pickett!? I lost mine decades ago!
(Nifty trick: enter "1 mcg / 5000 ml in pg / ml" into Google. Shazam, 200 pg/ml. Or convert it to pennyweights per cubic furlong if you want!!)
OK, you said 10 mcg absorbed so that's what I calculated. We just had a different starting point.
Wow. That's about 16x the dosage I'm using. I'd have to bathe in the oil to get that much! Hopefully my lower levels are enough to repair / prevent my less-severe damage. It was like pulling teeth to get my doctor to increase my injected dosage to 1mg/day, so I'd never get 30mg/day from her.
Do you think those huge levels are necessary / recommended for people with less severe damage?
(Nifty trick: enter "1 mcg / 5000 ml in pg / ml" into Google. Shazam, 200 pg/ml. Or convert it to pennyweights per cubic furlong if you want!!)
OK, you said 10 mcg absorbed so that's what I calculated. We just had a different starting point.
Wow. That's about 16x the dosage I'm using. I'd have to bathe in the oil to get that much!
Hopefully my lower levels are enough to repair / prevent my less-severe damage. It was like pulling teeth to get my doctor to increase my injected dosage to 1mg/day, so I'd never get 30mg/day from her.Do you think those huge levels are necessary / recommended for people with less severe damage?
I'd have to bathe in the oil to get that much!
Yup, Hell Boy.
Oh lord, you still use your old Pickett!?
When it's faster than bringing up Excel. My fingers are getting pretty clumsy Some things are just easier on a sliderule when great precision isn't needed. But 1000000/5000 I just do in my head. Just take off 3 zeros and divide 1000/5.
Do you think those huge levels are necessary / recommended for people with less severe damage?
That is something that we need a good large enough study to tell us. The problem is that the studies that find a CSF deficiency of cobalamin with elevated CSF MMA and/or HCY in that usual batch of diseases; CFS, FMS, MS, Parkinson's, ALS, Supra Nuclear Palsy and some others is still sort of a great unknown. The Japanese high dose studies carried the consideration of "appeared to "up-regulate" CNS neurological healing. Maybe, they were detecting "normal healing" after the cobalamin levels became "normal" in the CSF. Another Japanese study of intrathecal injections of MeCbl for diabetic neuropathy found the duration in the spinal fluid to be under 3 months to over 4 years (so far) and the benefits last as long as the elevated cobalamin levels remained. That is a huge variation in how quickly CBL is removed from the spinal fluid in a population that isn't part of those with impaired CSF cobalamin. Also, they responded similarly to the MS and ALS trial groups that have that problem.
I know of a dozen or so folks, all with CFS, FMS, SACD who did their own trials with injectable MeCbl. Every one of them had a threshold effect at between 6 and 7.5mg SC injections. The procedure I have suggested is that after getting established on a dose of MeCbl oral, sublingual, transdermal or whatever at which an another increase makes no difference having reached an equilibrium, that they then try a single 10mg SC injection. If that has it's own slightly different startup effects, much more subtle than the body startup was, then there is likely some benefit to higher doses as many times a day as is needed to maintain without a startup effect with each injection. Some doctors doing MeCbl therapies have suggested 5 years are needed without break to heal these things.
I don't know that it is related to severity of damage, but rather that there is any such damage. It doesn't appear to me to ever be a way off that dose because the damage starts happening all over again, often within a day or two. I've had some items that have never come back and some that come back rapidly with less than 5 star MeCbl.
Another trial with mixed results.
Nearly two months ago I purchased 5g of B12 powder from
http://www.superiornutraceuticals.c...N&Product_Code=MethlyB12P&Category_Code=OAASN
It came in an amber jar that was enclosed in a light protective bag. I was optimistic about the product based on the packaging. I added the B12 powder to 100% PG in concentrations of 5mg/ml, 10mg/ml, and 15mg/ml.
The first week I stopped taking sublinguals and vaped the 5mg/ml solution. I averaged about 3ml per day or 15mg B12 inhaled. The first few days I got the same buzz I had gotten during my first trial. The effect went away by day 4. I continued vaping b12 for 12 days, changing to the 10mg/ml solution on day 5 with no noticeable effect.
Once again my mood started to go south. On Day 13, I went back on the sublinguals. Interestingly, I did not get any startup symptoms going back to the enzy, but my mood did improve.
I gave it another go a couple of weeks later with the 15mg/ml solution. Same results. Deterioration of mood, but no startup symptoms upon returning to enzy.
Here are my confused thoughts.
1) I can't be sure the powder is effective, ie not degraded in some way.
2) I'm really beginning to think the buzz is a placebo effect.
3) If this method doesn't work, why didn't I have startup symptoms like I did after my first trial.
4) After doing some reading, it appears that the temperature of the atomizer can approach and even surpass 200C. How much B12 do we expect to survive in the vapor? Here is a video of someone measuring the temperature in an atomizer.
I'm interested to hear updates from anyone using vaporizers ( I'm looking at you @aturtles !)
Nearly two months ago I purchased 5g of B12 powder from
http://www.superiornutraceuticals.c...N&Product_Code=MethlyB12P&Category_Code=OAASN
It came in an amber jar that was enclosed in a light protective bag. I was optimistic about the product based on the packaging. I added the B12 powder to 100% PG in concentrations of 5mg/ml, 10mg/ml, and 15mg/ml.
The first week I stopped taking sublinguals and vaped the 5mg/ml solution. I averaged about 3ml per day or 15mg B12 inhaled. The first few days I got the same buzz I had gotten during my first trial. The effect went away by day 4. I continued vaping b12 for 12 days, changing to the 10mg/ml solution on day 5 with no noticeable effect.
Once again my mood started to go south. On Day 13, I went back on the sublinguals. Interestingly, I did not get any startup symptoms going back to the enzy, but my mood did improve.
I gave it another go a couple of weeks later with the 15mg/ml solution. Same results. Deterioration of mood, but no startup symptoms upon returning to enzy.
Here are my confused thoughts.
1) I can't be sure the powder is effective, ie not degraded in some way.
2) I'm really beginning to think the buzz is a placebo effect.
3) If this method doesn't work, why didn't I have startup symptoms like I did after my first trial.
4) After doing some reading, it appears that the temperature of the atomizer can approach and even surpass 200C. How much B12 do we expect to survive in the vapor? Here is a video of someone measuring the temperature in an atomizer.
I'm interested to hear updates from anyone using vaporizers ( I'm looking at you @aturtles !)
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Hi Skwag,
1) As far as I know the crystal-powder is reasonably rugged. It doesn't deteriorate in light the same way as an aqueous solution but would protect it on general principles. If it were converted to HyCbl/AqCbl (does so in solution) it wouldn't work on the CNS in the same way. Also, having water is part of the chemical pathway.
2) I assure you it is not placebo. It is repeatable in multiple people and even in the same person if they stay off MeCbl long enough. It is affecting certain areas and not others. MeCbl comes in many unmarked, unremarked, variations. Perhaps it is isomers or stereoisomers or something. I have used brands or crystal batches (injections) from perhaps 100 batches during the years, that ranged from one star to 5 stars. I have found that the ones I called 5 stars could still differ on what they affected concerning the CNS. That is why I used both Jarrow and Enzymatic Therapy until Jarrow changed, they both were 5 star but complimented each other affecting different areas. I have also used a 4.5 star MeCbl. It affects the CNS but not as well or completely as a 5 star MeCbl. The CNS startup can be very mild and short. The things that affect healing also affect mood. Actual neurological healing in my experience was often unpleasant and emotionally trying with all sorts of things occurring. Also, amount of MeCbl in the CNS and the ratio of AdoCbl interact in mood ways as does SAM-e. It sounds like you might be hitting a lack of something.
3) It delivered a small increment and was noticed. Something may have changed or be at the equilibrium that can be reached in that way or as you have speculated. How much light exposure does the MeCbl solution get in the pipe for instance? Could it have had 10 minutes of exposure? Could the dissolved material have formed hydrates or hydrate crystals that can't be handled by the system or maybe clog it?
4) 200 deg C is HOT for a delicate compound such as MeCbl. I wouldn't have thought it likely to work, but that is purely an opinion.
It's always a pleasure to be looked at.
The reason you haven't heard from me is that my results are also mixed. I kept thinking I'd get a handle on what was going on, come to some conclusions, and then post solid results. But that didn't happen.
But since you asked... here's an interim report.
1. I am frustrated at my vaping hardware tech and reluctant to try new vaping tech until someone here has strongly vouched for it. I had two main problems: A. battery life and B. cartridge fragility with my preferred base.
2. My experiments with varying proportions of PG, VG, distilled water, saline, and MeCbl revealed that some mixtures kill the cartrige without warning -- saline in particular, which most liquid MeCbl has as a base. This became expensive and annoying to troubleshoot. I moved to a higher-end ecig (in-brand), which solved the battery life problem (V2-pro series 3), and was more reliable, but when it came to the cartridge all it did was to change the failure profile -- for a more expensive cartridge. Yes, I could test this, but I have yet to create a test protocol that feels worth the likely cost in time and cartridges to find the exact failure points of which substance. Which leads us to...
2. I moved to all PG for the base, because that was the only base mix that I could be sure wouldn't kill the cartrige. It is indeed reliable in this fashion, however, at high vaping to get 2-3mg inside me (estimating 10 puffs per mg (20MG/ML MeCbl)) I get a mild headache, which I credit to the PG. So that limits my intake a bit, and frankly my taste for vaping in that amount. Maybe half VG half PG would be okay with this cartridge, don't know. I'm a few days to a few weeks from trying that.
3. I changed my inhalation technique. As I reported before, I had trouble with my lungs -- heaviness and ill-ease with using the PG. Comments from @skwag and @Freddd got me thinking about how the upper lungs and nasal passages are effective MeCbl absorption areas as well. Once I stopped deep-breathing, the discomfort in my lungs went away completely, even with all PG. Now I inhale, but not deeply, and slowly exhale through my nose. I can feel that being effective.
4. As long as it comes from a reputable source, I am no longer concerned with MeCbl sterility for nose and lungs; unless contaminated, MeCbl doesn't have anything on which to grow nasties. So nevermind that problem.
4. I still vape. I also use tabs and nasal spray, because I am still exploring what is most effective and when, but also because I've had some trouble with my protocol lately (other suppliments) and am less willing to experiement where I don't have to.
Conclusions: I can feel the MeCbl go into my system when I vape. Not always, of course, because sometimes I'm at saturation, when I shouldn't feel it at all. But when I'm not? Yes, I can feel it. Yes, it works and is on the high end of cost effective as far as MeCbl goes, provided you have the base mix right and the vaping tech is reliable. Figuring that out is proving to take more resources than I have right now.
I'm hoping as we go forward someone will come up with some of the answers I have yet to find.
The reason you haven't heard from me is that my results are also mixed. I kept thinking I'd get a handle on what was going on, come to some conclusions, and then post solid results. But that didn't happen.
But since you asked... here's an interim report.
1. I am frustrated at my vaping hardware tech and reluctant to try new vaping tech until someone here has strongly vouched for it. I had two main problems: A. battery life and B. cartridge fragility with my preferred base.
2. My experiments with varying proportions of PG, VG, distilled water, saline, and MeCbl revealed that some mixtures kill the cartrige without warning -- saline in particular, which most liquid MeCbl has as a base. This became expensive and annoying to troubleshoot. I moved to a higher-end ecig (in-brand), which solved the battery life problem (V2-pro series 3), and was more reliable, but when it came to the cartridge all it did was to change the failure profile -- for a more expensive cartridge. Yes, I could test this, but I have yet to create a test protocol that feels worth the likely cost in time and cartridges to find the exact failure points of which substance. Which leads us to...
2. I moved to all PG for the base, because that was the only base mix that I could be sure wouldn't kill the cartrige. It is indeed reliable in this fashion, however, at high vaping to get 2-3mg inside me (estimating 10 puffs per mg (20MG/ML MeCbl)) I get a mild headache, which I credit to the PG. So that limits my intake a bit, and frankly my taste for vaping in that amount. Maybe half VG half PG would be okay with this cartridge, don't know. I'm a few days to a few weeks from trying that.
3. I changed my inhalation technique. As I reported before, I had trouble with my lungs -- heaviness and ill-ease with using the PG. Comments from @skwag and @Freddd got me thinking about how the upper lungs and nasal passages are effective MeCbl absorption areas as well. Once I stopped deep-breathing, the discomfort in my lungs went away completely, even with all PG. Now I inhale, but not deeply, and slowly exhale through my nose. I can feel that being effective.
4. As long as it comes from a reputable source, I am no longer concerned with MeCbl sterility for nose and lungs; unless contaminated, MeCbl doesn't have anything on which to grow nasties. So nevermind that problem.
4. I still vape. I also use tabs and nasal spray, because I am still exploring what is most effective and when, but also because I've had some trouble with my protocol lately (other suppliments) and am less willing to experiement where I don't have to.
Conclusions: I can feel the MeCbl go into my system when I vape. Not always, of course, because sometimes I'm at saturation, when I shouldn't feel it at all. But when I'm not? Yes, I can feel it. Yes, it works and is on the high end of cost effective as far as MeCbl goes, provided you have the base mix right and the vaping tech is reliable. Figuring that out is proving to take more resources than I have right now.
I'm hoping as we go forward someone will come up with some of the answers I have yet to find.
This is a really good point I forgot to address: being careful about light exposure. The other reason I changed vaping devices was the series 3 allowed me to better protect the liquid in the cartridge in the vaper.
The failure of the cartridges is not something I understand perfectly, but I suspect had more than one cause. It might well have had to do with hydrate crystals. I think the series 3 is better in that regard.
I don't know enough to know how high vapers burn or my particular vaper does. I have the impression that MeCbl handles heat pretty well, and know of one study that found no degradation at 110F, but that's a long ways from vaping temps. It would be nice to know how hot MeCbl can get and still stay effective. Do you know?
The failure of the cartridges is not something I understand perfectly, but I suspect had more than one cause. It might well have had to do with hydrate crystals. I think the series 3 is better in that regard.
I don't know enough to know how high vapers burn or my particular vaper does. I have the impression that MeCbl handles heat pretty well, and know of one study that found no degradation at 110F, but that's a long ways from vaping temps. It would be nice to know how hot MeCbl can get and still stay effective. Do you know?
The first concern I listed is perhaps better said in your language. I don't know if the powder i have is a 5 star or a 3 star or a 0 star MB12. This makes determining the effectiveness of Inhaling B12 more difficult to determine. I still have over 4.5 g of powder. I'm thinking about injecting it. I'm not sure how to go about this safely, but hopefully I'll get motivated enough to figure this out shortly. If I am able to inject it, I may be able to say more about it's quality and then also have a good base to compare with inhalation.
You may be right that Inhalation could be working and i was experiencing unpleasant side effects from healing. My hunch is that this is not what is happening. It felt more like a regression. Back to the irritable anxious state that I was in before I started the protocol. On the other hand, I always feel great the first few days of the vaping trials, and maybe that is how long it takes for something else to run out.
I've kept light exposure to the absolute minimum. Powder is dropped into foil wrapped amber bottles for mixing under the dimmest light I can work in. The solution is extracted and put in the atomizer in the dark ( Lots of spillage for this reason ). The atomizer has a tank that is completely sealed from light. The solution is never exposed to full light. It is perhaps exposed to dim light for 15 seconds maximum. I've never noticed anything amiss with the solution. There is always a good amount I can't extract from the bottle with the dripper so I've been able to look at that carefully under light and see nothing is wrong before I toss it.
Thanks much for the quick report.
I switched my equipment at some point. I started using a Kangertech Aerotank. It is similar to the atomizer I was using before but has a bigger tank and it comes with a stainless steel tank section which makes the tank light proof. It uses replaceable coil heads which need to be changed once every few days at $1 to $2 a pop. I have found that the more VG in the mix the faster the heads need to be replaced. So using 100% pg a head might last for a week. Using 50% VG it might only last a couple days. I can't vouch for its durability, but it has worked well while I've used it.
You may be right that Inhalation could be working and i was experiencing unpleasant side effects from healing. My hunch is that this is not what is happening. It felt more like a regression. Back to the irritable anxious state that I was in before I started the protocol. On the other hand, I always feel great the first few days of the vaping trials, and maybe that is how long it takes for something else to run out.
I've kept light exposure to the absolute minimum. Powder is dropped into foil wrapped amber bottles for mixing under the dimmest light I can work in. The solution is extracted and put in the atomizer in the dark ( Lots of spillage for this reason ). The atomizer has a tank that is completely sealed from light. The solution is never exposed to full light. It is perhaps exposed to dim light for 15 seconds maximum. I've never noticed anything amiss with the solution. There is always a good amount I can't extract from the bottle with the dripper so I've been able to look at that carefully under light and see nothing is wrong before I toss it.
It's always a pleasure to be looked at.
I switched my equipment at some point. I started using a Kangertech Aerotank. It is similar to the atomizer I was using before but has a bigger tank and it comes with a stainless steel tank section which makes the tank light proof. It uses replaceable coil heads which need to be changed once every few days at $1 to $2 a pop. I have found that the more VG in the mix the faster the heads need to be replaced. So using 100% pg a head might last for a week. Using 50% VG it might only last a couple days. I can't vouch for its durability, but it has worked well while I've used it.
I came across this in my readings today.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/Smoking/49655
E-cigarette liquids vaporized at higher-than-standard voltage produced significant quantities of formaldehyde-releasing compounds, researchers said, suggesting that power-vaping may be more hazardous than previously supposed.
With a variable-voltage e-cigarette device set to operate at 5 V, 10 puffs produced a mean of 380 mcg (SE 90) of formaldehyde in the form of hemiacetal compounds that release formaldehyde, according to David H. Peyton, PhD, of Portland State University in Oregon, and colleagues. ...
... The chemical reaction happens when propylene glycol and glycerol, known agents in e-cigarette liquid cartridges, are heated in the presence of oxygen.
Peyton -- a pharmaceutical chemist -- and colleagues in other Portland State departments, including computer science and civil and environmental engineering, used a nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy tube to analyze the aerosolized liquid output of a variable voltage e-cigarette device, using a commercial e-liquid. The resulting vapors were trapped in the tube.
... The researchers calculated that a person vaping at 3 mL of e-cigarette liquid per day, using a 5-V device, would inhale 14.4 mg (SE 3.3) of formaldehyde daily in the form of formaldehyde-releasing agents.
That's nearly five times the 3 mg of formaldehyde that a pack-a-day smoker of conventional cigarettes would inhale, they estimated.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/Smoking/49655
E-cigarette liquids vaporized at higher-than-standard voltage produced significant quantities of formaldehyde-releasing compounds, researchers said, suggesting that power-vaping may be more hazardous than previously supposed.
With a variable-voltage e-cigarette device set to operate at 5 V, 10 puffs produced a mean of 380 mcg (SE 90) of formaldehyde in the form of hemiacetal compounds that release formaldehyde, according to David H. Peyton, PhD, of Portland State University in Oregon, and colleagues. ...
... The chemical reaction happens when propylene glycol and glycerol, known agents in e-cigarette liquid cartridges, are heated in the presence of oxygen.
Peyton -- a pharmaceutical chemist -- and colleagues in other Portland State departments, including computer science and civil and environmental engineering, used a nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy tube to analyze the aerosolized liquid output of a variable voltage e-cigarette device, using a commercial e-liquid. The resulting vapors were trapped in the tube.
... The researchers calculated that a person vaping at 3 mL of e-cigarette liquid per day, using a 5-V device, would inhale 14.4 mg (SE 3.3) of formaldehyde daily in the form of formaldehyde-releasing agents.
That's nearly five times the 3 mg of formaldehyde that a pack-a-day smoker of conventional cigarettes would inhale, they estimated.
I
I've seen this as well. I will update this post when I find the link to the rebuttal I'm looking for, but the jist of the rebuttal goes like this:
The study shows that no ( or nearly no ) formaldehyde is realeased when vaping at lower wattages. Vaping at 5 volts, with the particular e cigarette devices used in this study does produce significant amounts of formaldehyde. But if a human were vaping this, rather than a machine, there would be no way for him to continue. The taste would be horrid and irritating. The devices tested are just not made to vape at those high voltages, so you end up running it too hot and burning the juice rather than vaporizing it.
I tend to believe this rebuttal based on my own experience with dry hits. Once you start burning juice or wicking material, the vaper knows immediately since the experience is pretty horrible.
Edit: I've found the link to the rebuttal:
http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/2015/191-form-nejm
http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/2015/192-form-ver
I've seen this as well. I will update this post when I find the link to the rebuttal I'm looking for, but the jist of the rebuttal goes like this:
The study shows that no ( or nearly no ) formaldehyde is realeased when vaping at lower wattages. Vaping at 5 volts, with the particular e cigarette devices used in this study does produce significant amounts of formaldehyde. But if a human were vaping this, rather than a machine, there would be no way for him to continue. The taste would be horrid and irritating. The devices tested are just not made to vape at those high voltages, so you end up running it too hot and burning the juice rather than vaporizing it.
I tend to believe this rebuttal based on my own experience with dry hits. Once you start burning juice or wicking material, the vaper knows immediately since the experience is pretty horrible.
Edit: I've found the link to the rebuttal:
http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/2015/191-form-nejm
http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/2015/192-form-ver
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Reading the same item it does also mention that it didn't do this at 3 volts. I have no idea what people do and what they don't do in this or what the experience is or who uses what voltages. It seems like a reasonable caution about using 5 volts or higher. So, as with everything, take with a grain of salt. Be in good health,