Long Covid: Summary of discussions

[Rufous McKinney]

Highly recommended.

YouTube link

That was great, what an outstanding discussion.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

The next one is on what should us Patients do about it? Must tune in...

 

[Pyrrhus]

Fortunately, the folks at Patient-led Research have pre-published a fairly comprehensive picture of the symptoms in Long Covid:

Characterizing Long COVID in an International Cohort: 7 Months of Symptoms and
Their Impact
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.24.20248802v2.full.pdf

Now published in the Lancet:

Characterizing long COVID in an international cohort: 7 months of symptoms and their impact (Davis et al., 2021)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00299-6/fulltext

 

[Pyrrhus]

Related discussions:

Covid 19 persistence for over a year - confirmed case in immunocompromised patient
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...rmed-case-in-immunocompromised-patient.85952/

Persistent coronavirus viral particles in the gut
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/persistent-viral-particles-in-the-gut.84272/

Predictors of Nonseroconversion after SARS-CoV-2 Infection (Liu et al., Sept. 2021)
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...rs-cov-2-infection-liu-et-al-sept-2021.86406/

 

[Pyrrhus]

Characterizing long COVID in an international cohort: 7 months of symptoms and their impact (Davis et al., 2021)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00299-6/fulltext

Although the above article, which was written by Long Covid patients their selves, probably remains the most authoritative description of Long Covid, there have been a few other publications of note:


Long-Term Coronavirus Disease 2019 Complications in Inpatients and Outpatients: A One-Year Follow-up Cohort Study (Lombardo et al., July 2021)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34386546/
Excerpt:

At 12 months after acute infection, COVID-19 survivors were still suffering from symptoms identified at shorter follow-up, and the most frequent symptoms included fatigue, pain, and sleep disorders. A more severe impairment in the acute phase did not seem to predict more severe complications.

Post-COVID syndrome in non-hospitalised patients with COVID-19: a longitudinal prospective cohort study (Augustin et al., July 2021)
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.lanepe.2021.100122
Excerpt:

We present a longitudinal, prospective analysis of health consequences in patients who initially presented with no or minor symptoms of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus type 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection. Hence, we focus on mild COVID-19 in non-hospitalised patients. [...] We observed 442 and 353 patients over four and seven months after symptom onset, respectively. Four months post SARS-CoV-2 infection, 8.6% (38/442) of patients presented with shortness of breath, 12.4% (55/442) with anosmia, 11.1% (49/442) with ageusia and 9.7% (43/442) with fatigue. At least one of these characteristic symptoms was present in 27.8% (123/442) and 34.8% (123/353) at month 4 and 7 post-infection, respectively. A lower baseline level of SARS-CoV-2 IgG, anosmia and diarrhoea during acute COVID-19 were associated with higher risk to develop long-term symptoms.

And finally, a meta-analysis that combined data from different studies:
More than 50 long-term effects of COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis (Lopez-Leon et al., August 2021)
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-95565-8
Excerpt:

This systematic review and meta‐analysis aims to identify studies assessing the long‐term effects of COVID‐19. LitCOVID and Embase were searched to identify articles with original data published before the 1st of January 2021, with a minimum of 100 patients. [...] A total of 18,251 publications were identified, of which 15 met the inclusion criteria. The prevalence of 55 long‐term effects was estimated, 21 meta‐analyses were performed, and 47,910 patients were included (age 17–87 years). The included studies defined long‐COVID as ranging from 14 to 110 days post‐viral infection. It was estimated that 80% of the infected patients with SARS‐CoV‐2 developed one or more long‐term symptoms. The five most common symptoms were fatigue (58%), headache (44%), attention disorder (27%), hair loss (25%), and dyspnea (24%).

 

[SWAlexander]

Why do we developed one or more long‐term symptoms is not really explained.
Almost non of the papers (except Dr. Jaeger and Prof. Resia Pretorius) includes least one key pathology - FactorII (F2) and FactorV (F5).
If our blood is clotted by von Willebrand or Faktor-V-Leiden-Mutation (F5), how can our body, or brain heal if it is deprived of oxidant. Yes, Fibrinogen (factor I) are mentioned but no reference to TVT or any blood clot, fibrin, coagulation, inflammation possibility. What else are these micro clots hold inside - LDL or much more that takes down energy, may cause white brain matter and brain fog? We don´t know yet. More research is necessary.
Unfortunately I could not find extensive explanation about von Willebrand or Faktor-V-Leiden-Mutation exept in Austria guidelines. It appears to be a fact that most people had never a Factor test and been consequently and often wrongly medicated - example Aspirin. To understand the difference and details about clots I see a Hematologist as the only solution.
If you like to read and have google translator. https://www.gesundheit.gv.at/labor/laborwerte/blutgerinnung/faktor-v-leiden-mutation

 

[ChookityPop]

Unfortunately I could not find extensive explanation about von Willebrand or Faktor-V-Leiden-Mutation exept in Austria guidelines. It appears to be a fact that most people had never a Factor test and been consequently and often wrongly medicated - example Aspirin. To understand the difference and details about clots I see a Hematologist as the only solution.
If you like to read and have google translator. https://www.gesundheit.gv.at/labor/laborwerte/blutgerinnung/faktor-v-leiden-mutation

What do you mean with people being wrongly medicated with Aspirin?

 

[SWAlexander]

What do you mean with people being wrongly medicated with Aspirin?

Microclots are resistant to Aspirin. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34425843/ "....might be due to the presence of persistent circulating plasma microclots that are resistant to fibrinolysis."
also: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12933-020-01165-7

 

[Pyrrhus]

Now published in the Lancet:

Characterizing long COVID in an international cohort: 7 months of symptoms and their impact (Davis et al., 2021)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00299-6/fulltext

Although the above article, which was written by Long Covid patients their selves, probably remains the most authoritative description of Long Covid, there have been a few other publications of note:

Another meta-analysis of note:

Fatigue and Cognitive Impairment in Post-COVID-19 Syndrome: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis (Ceban et al., 2021)
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbi.2021.12.020

Highlights
• Fatigue and cognitive impairment are amongst the most common and debilitating symptoms of post-COVID-19 syndrome.
• Approximately 1 in 3 individuals experienced fatigue 12 or more weeks following COVID-19 diagnosis.
• Approximately 1 in 5 individuals exhibited cognitive impairment 12 or more weeks following COVID-19 diagnosis.
• Narrative synthesis revealed elevations in proinflammatory markers and considerable functional impairment in a subset of individuals.

Results
The literature search yielded 10,979 studies, and 81 studies were selected for inclusion. The fatigue meta-analysis comprised 68 studies, the cognitive impairment meta-analysis comprised 43 studies, and 48 studies were included in the narrative synthesis. Meta-analysis revealed that the proportion of individuals experiencing fatigue 12 or more weeks following COVID-19 diagnosis was 0.32 (95% CI, 0.27, 0.37; p < 0.001; n = 25,268; I2=99.1%). The proportion of individuals exhibiting cognitive impairment was 0.22 (95% CI, 0.17, 0.28; p < 0.001; n = 13,232; I2=98.0). Moreover, narrative synthesis revealed elevations in proinflammatory markers and considerable functional impairment in a subset of individuals.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Is ‘long Covid’ worsening the labor shortage? (Brookings Institution report, January 2022)
https://www.brookings.edu/research/is-long-covid-worsening-the-labor-shortage/

This piece explores data suggesting that long Covid is contributing to record high numbers of unfilled jobs by keeping millions of people from getting back to work.
[...]
With 10.6 million unfilled jobs across the country, the months-long labor shortage is weighing on the U.S. economy. Small businesses are losing money due to understaffing. Local governments are struggling to fill jobs. Investors are spooked, and corporate profits are taking a hit.

Economists have proposed a number of explanations, including a decline in workers’ willingness to tolerate low pay and poor working conditions, lack of access to child care, concerns about contracting COVID-19, higher household savings, and demographic and immigration trends. Yet they rarely mention long Covid.
[...]
As Lisa McCorkell, co-founder of the long-Covid-focused Patient-Led Research Collaborative, told Brookings, “Until we have data from a representative sample that accurately capture the extent of the impacts to the labor force, economists and policymakers are likely not going to consider long Covid an economic issue or recognize it for the mass disabling event it is.”

 

[Pyrrhus]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511452434778017798

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511417373814779904

 

[triffid113]

I perhaps have long covid...despite all the shots, when I caught covid, I had it for 10 days (by test), but the fatigue is still there 9 months later and my blood pressure went out of conrol and I have had repeated gout episodes (have not had in 30 years, only 1 attack in my life due to high fructose corn syrup). and short of breath just goes along with the high blood pressure. Can't prove it about the high blood presure, but I have been tentatively been pointing at covid as the cause.

Here is what I am trying and why: The leading symptom of the first covid was "loss of taste and smell" which is a symptom of zinc deficiency! By the time I caught it, it was Omicron and I had no problem with taste and smell, but I think it still caused a zinc shortage...loss of energy (zinc needed for thyroid hormones, and adrenal hormones, and it turns out zinc lowers uric acid, thus low zinc causes gout if you're susceptible, and gout raises blood pressure.

I have a very hard time absorbing zinc - always have. Turns out the more phytate in your diet the more trouble one has absorbing zinc. I have decided to try phytase to help me get my zinc levels up. BUT - zinc is required to make HCL to digest zinc! So once you are very low, it's an endles cycle! So I drink kombucha for the acid to help digest my zinc. (I have done this in the past successfully, but never was so low in zinc as to have gout attacks), so now I am adding phytase to help. Of course, I may be all washed up, but this is what I'm trying and why.
Sometimes, even if my reasons wind up being wrong, my solutions fix things anyway (knock on wood!)

idk if this helps anyone else.

Fyi, certain mineral (all?) levels cannot be accurate assessed from blood. Copper is one, due to it's an acute phase reactant. Not sure about zinc, but I don't care about mineral tests - only symptoms and correcting them. I've had calcium shortage all my life and supplemented like crazy (3x dose) to always be "just a litle low". that's due to a Vitamin D receptor defect I later came to find out. Calcium floating around in my blood did keep me alive since I've had genetic stage 3 hypertension my whole life. So... i go by symptoms first. I do believe in tests, but my sysmptoms are higher priority, if that makes sense.

 

[triffid113]

i don't think that explains loss of collagen in the body, either - my fingerprints gone, other body parts decrepit.

So, my guess, nfor what it's worth is this: covid uses up our stores of many things, some of which are hard to replace, for various reasons (like age, diet, etc). It requires copper to make collagen and people absorb les copper as they get older - I believe I heard that our hormones help us absorb copper. That does NOT mean it cannot be supplemented succesfully, but we need to be aware of all the substances that impede copper absorption, of which there are many. Also, we can take collagen preformed with the copper already in it. You can google a list of dietary ssubstances that impede copper absorption. Sorry, I spilled kombucha on my keyboard and am getting lots of mising lleters and extra letters...

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Sorry, I spilled kombucha

oh NO, not that!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

i go by symptoms first. I do believe in tests, but my sysmptoms are higher priority, if that makes sense.

that does make sense...a blood test often just does not get at what is going on in tissue, etc.

Your really well informed on these mineral issues. Thank you for sharing what you've figured out.

 

[lenora]

I also have high BP and before menopause (when I was 40) it barely registered as me being alive. This was before many of our additional illnesses were discovered.

It's a very fine line to walk with high B.P. No salt isn't the answer as we absolutely must have some iodine....many cases of high BP are actually genetic and quite honestly, doctors don't have the answers either.

I get a pounding headache and shortness of breath, have very high cholesterol (familial) and seven stents...more to come with my next visit with the cardiologist. That was a promise he made last year....it's tiresome. Not so much the stents, but the rest of the cardiac problems. They're the least of my problems, so I'm not really complaining about them.....they just are, the same as the rest of our "little package." Yours, Lenora

 

[triffid113]

Lenora

I have genetic stage 3 hypertension...ACE +/+ gene. What I do is this, and some of this may be of help to you, but I urge you to research it on your own with your particulars. [For instance, idk drug-herbal interactions and everybody's body is different anyway].

I take a LOT of supplements. As time goes on, I find that more and more of them, which I took for other reasons, are ALSO integral to my blood pressure control. So... this protocol may not be enough or right for you:

1 g. Olive Leaf Extract (this is an herbal ace inhibitor and it lowers b.p. 11 points, which I can FEEL)
Calcium-citrate-magnesium-citrate 1:1 (divided dose 2x/day)
DHEA 50mg (I need this to keep the cal-mag in my blood 24 hours..you can measure multi times a day and see if you need this and then try lower doses, or not. Cal-mag lowers my b.p. 30 points, but it only lasts a few hours without DHEA for me (perhaps my DHEA is used up by allergies of which I have plenty).

I also eat low salt (1500-2000mg/day depending on how I'm doing...before this 1200mg was too high)

I take a pre-broken down B complex, (Thorne Basic B), it has some bearing - folate, I think(?), has bearing on b.p. (Itake this for other reasons, but it impacts b.p. I read)

I read Vitamin D has a bearing on b.p. (makes sense because it is needed to utilize calcium)

This year I found that zinc has a bearing on b.p. (in my case because it affects uric acid, which clogs the blood, thus affects b.p.)

There may be other things - anything that raises or lowers blood sugar, for instance, would affect b.p. since blood sugar clogs the blood.

I take many other supplements. There may be another way to keep cal-mag in your blood. If someone knows of another way, I'd like to hear it. olive leaft extract is an easy no-brainer...it has many other health benefits, including lowering blood sugar better than glyburide [I read a study on that today!], yet it never caused me a low blood sugar attack, so perhaps one should say it helps normalize blood sugar.

---

On another topic, I had brain fog today...which I find exceedingly depressing...notjust a little bit, but like this is serious. I tried Thorne Basic B (another dose), Rhodiola, Vitamin E, Astaxanthin...and went outside and got some sun even though it's fricking cold out(!) and it c leared up. Any idea what helped? The B vitamins??? The sun???

 

[Crux]

There may be another way to keep cal-mag in your blood. If someone knows of another way, I'd like to hear it.

L- lysine for calcium absorption from intestines. It also lowers urinary calcium elimination.

 

[abc123]

Any updates on studies looking at (PHYSICAL abnormalities in) Long Covid...?

I just read about recent study in Nature linking pre-existing anxiety & depression to L.C. The psychologizers are hard at work minimizing L.C., ridiculing people's ongoing struggles and suffering, etc.

(It gets political, too, of course...)

 

[lenora]

Exactly how many people make it through life without anxiety or depression? My guess is zero, so that's just a huge cop-out. It's a face of life and just b/c you don't have it at 40 doesn't mean you won't fall victim to it in later years.

Just a lost cause, a waste of paper in a magazine and if researchers came up with that, then why are they being paid? Annoying. Yours, Lenora