LED red intranasal light therapy

[Cheesus]

@Chris you have been an absolute workhorse in this thread! I have just read the last four pages and I am absolutely exhausted. I can't imagine what it was like writing it.

Is it still your opinion that you would have gone for the Neuro if you were starting out now? I am keenly focused on the neurological element of treatment rather than systemic, as I have other neurological problems in addition to my ME that I would like to cover.

I was thinking of looking into the MedX and combining it with Vielight 810 and 633 as you are doing, but I think I need to keep it simple. You also get the 6 month 80% back guarantee with Vielight that reduces the risk of the considerable initial outlay. If I didn't want to shell out for the Neuro I would probably only go for the 810 and 633.

 

[Chris]

@Cheesus, gee, thanks! Yes, I would get the Neuro--it was announced shortly after I bought the MED-X units, with the Vielights shortly after. The 810 does good neurological things, and a key part of it is the more powerful version of the 810 that is part of the Neuro--I would buy it separately if I could, but I can't. The MED-X units have the advantage that I can use it to heal my sciatica, and lend one to a friend to cure her plantar fasciitis. The Neuro or 810 do not lend themselves to this kind of use. I may end up adding a Neuro to my arsenal anyway--feel very tempted--it is convenient, easy to use, and there may well be an advantage to treating 5 areas simultaneously. I wish they would hurry up and get the paper on the Alzheimer trial published!

Here is a paper Lew Lim wrote that might interest you:
http://www.mediclights.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Brain-stimulation-potential.pdf

 

[Cheesus]

@Chris No problem

I am stuck on this one as I am not sure if I want to get the systemic effects of the 633 in addition to the neurological effects of the 810, or go all out for the Neuro. It's a question of a highly focused approach at a very high cost, or spreading my net more widely but with potentially less efficacy at a lower (but still high) cost.

I am pursuing some costly investigations at the moment which could reap some unforeseen treatment avenues, so I may hold off until that is complete with the hope that the paper on the Neuro will be out by that time.

Please keep us apprised of any updates you come across. I will be watching this thread with interest.

Many thanks!

 

[brenda]

After just one session of nasal LLL therapy, using a device attached to my spooky2 generator, l can report a reduction of congestion and sneezing.

The nasal one and a wrist device that delivers the laser beam to the bloodstream on the wrist, can be programmed with whatever frequencies you want from the free software that runs the generator. I am using general healing for now lasting 6 mins.

 

[Cheesus]

After just one session of nasal LLL therapy, using a device attached to my spooky2 generator, l can report a reduction of congestion and sneezing.

The nasal one and a wrist device that delivers the laser beam to the bloodstream on the wrist, can be programmed with whatever frequencies you want from the free software that runs the generator. I am using general healing for now lasting 6 mins.

What is the name of your wrist device?

Keep us updated on your progress

 

[brenda]

What is the name of your wrist device?

Keep us updated on your progress

It is just a spooky2 accessory sold on their website. Made in China so cheap but not poor quality.

 

[Chris]

A quick comment on the Naviaux paper as it may relate to the topic of this thread. The paper makes it clear that the hypometabolic state we are in is a "highly concerted hypometabolic response to environmental stress," "a unified cellular response," a coordinated...state," part of which is a reduction in energy production, including "a decreased synthesis and/or turnover ...of ATP and GTP and decreased reserve capacity caused in part by a generalized decrease in the ability to restore high-energy phosphate stores after exertion." Fatigue and PEM, that is. Naviaux even has a few lines about "our" favourite molecule, cytochrome c. oxidase: "If capillary delivery of oxygen to the cell is unchanged, the concentration of dissolved oxygen rises in the cell like water in a bowl in response to instantaneous decreases in mitochondrial oxygen consumption."

We know that cytochrome c. oxidase is the first acceptor of photons from our favourite devices, so we have to accept that we are risking interfering with this "unified cellular response," trying to raise our production of ATP, which drives so many intra- and extra-cellular processes. Is this wise or safe? I am not sure, but Naviaux also writes that "effective treatments for CFS are likely to be achieved by careful attention to nutrition, metabolism, triggers, stressors, and physical activity as an integrated system, combined with a systems biological understanding of the triggers of the CDR [Cell Danger Response] and dauer entry and exit." The first statement contains a warning, the second a possible promise. We are dancing on a knife edge, trying to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Can it work?

I have in previous posts emphasized the "go low, go slow, take breaks" strategy. I think I will reiterate that here, with this paper giving it extra emphasis. We are experimenting with a path that may help some to go some way towards this. I think it is helping me in some ways--OI may be improving a bit, slowly; sleep has definitely improved, general attitude towards life has brightened some, nasal allergies substantially improved, as has blood pressure regulation. Even energy may have started to improve, slowly.... So I am going to keep on, remembering that any apparently local application of LLLT has systemic as well as local effects, and must be counted as part of my rationing process, and that at the slightest sign of increasing inflammation I should stop or at least back off and take a break. It is certainly not an easy way to quick health, but I think it still holds some promise.

 

[brenda]

Chris, l agree and found this to be my experience with healing. You must go at the pace the body sets and to overstep that means a crash.

I had to get several things in line, most important is diet so no inflammatory foods which varies for each of us. Mine has to be super strict autoimmune Paleo. Then l have had to slow loss of electrons by grounding on wet grass daily and getting into the sun without screne or sunglasses. Early to bed and to rise and protein for breakfast s important and cold thermogenesis is a huge help. I wash down with iced water as anything harsher is too much for my system atm. The biggie is cutting out blue light after sundown.

It's about conserving energy that modern life sucks from us.

 

[Cheesus]

I have just come across something that you guys may be interested in. It is a device that stimulates the vagus nerve with sound.

http://experiencenervana.com

 

[Ricard]

I'm glad you're finding positive effects with your homemade gadget, @escallum. I've been experimenting on myself with reflex tests (http://www.neurofeedback-partner.de/product_info.php?info=p86_capit-o.html) along with memory tests and have found a noticeable improvement over the course of three months or so (I do own the Vielight Neuro + Vielight 810 though). I could publish my Excel file test sheet results if anyone's interested. Though, a n=1 sample size is not a good measure, would be nice if other people were to self-test and document their results.

I'm a retired electrical engineer, as some of you know, so I have a lot of extra free time. Over the past month, I've looked into building my own intranasal devices by dismantling the Vielight 810's control unit(see picture below) and examining the circuit board. From what I can tell from the layout, the Vielight devices appear deceivingly simple but are actually very efficiently designed, I wouldn't be able to replicate this miniaturized PCB layout without a team of electrical engineers and a relatively high capital cost to build something that's marketable.

Sorry about the dirt LOL, my basement workshop needs to be dusted.

I did consider the oral cavity as an alternative too, given that I can't actually manufacture and sell anything that stimulates the brain via light energy through the intranasal channel because of Vielight Inc's patent. However, the oral cavity imo is less efficient, based on data and after roughly crunching numbers through the formulas provided in this study : https://www.researchgate.net/public...d_NIR_light_dosimetry_in_the_human_deep_brain .

I, personally, do agree with the scientists in that study that the intranasal channel is the most efficient channel to reach the brain given that it's closer to the brain plus there is the added benefit of exposing blood vessels to photonic stimulation too.

If anything, I'd probably focus my efforts on making a device that "photobiomodulates" via the mouth but having something in my mouth is less comfortable than the nose for me and much less effective.

Since we're on the topic.. this is the pricey Vielight Neuro's intranasal applicator that I've been trying to replicate without damaging (sorry about the dirty lens, I do a lot of outdoor photography)

From what I can see, there's quite a fair bit of microchip LED technology designed to extract/pulse 810 nm light. It's definitely a step above using regular LED diodes. Plus I did notice the lens has a slight angle (divergence) to it too, to point the light properly towards the brain (and not the eyes), something that regular LED diodes lack.

Either way, to each his own.. I have quite a lot of money saved and while I definitely think the Vielight devices are pricey, I think they have well-researched power density parameters/electronics etc.. a small investment if one considers the long run.

My main gripe is how the control units feel light and plastic-y and the back clip of my control unit broke after it fell on the pavement during a run - the exterior definitely doesn't reflect the quality of the interior. I'll probably be claiming warranty on it soon.

What a nice thread ... thanks for all this information.
@IntelligentImpulse and esecallum: As far as I see the intranasal applicator only contains the LED and no other electronics. Is this correct? I think actually this is the most important component of the device.
Does anyone know what is the required current of these diodes (633nm, 810nm, 810nm Neuro)? Is there actually a difference between the intranasal applicator diodes of the 810 and the 810nm Neuro or are they just driven at a higher current/power?
I am just thinking to replicate the pulsed current source with something more flexible allowing me to change the pulse rate etc.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Chris]

@Ricard--I think that Intelligentimpusle's photo and text imply that there is some microcircuitry in the diode housing of the Neuro version of the 810--I have felt the temptation to buy just the applicator, but doubt it would work properly with the "regular" 810 power unit. I guess one really has to buy the Neuro to get that "super" 810.

 

[Ricard]

@Chris--- Thanks for the clarification. So this might make it more complicated. Surprising that they really put some electronics into the diode housing ... I would expect nothing more than a resistor there.

 

[Chris]

@Ricard--I should make it clear that that is only my interpretation of Intelligentimpulse's text and photo. But I compared the photo with the diode housing of my "regular" 810, and there seems to be a significant amount of colour detail (white and red) in the Neuro 810 housing, where my "regular" 810 has simply a black column. The diode housing also appears a little thicker than the regular one.

 

[Cheesus]

@Chris, I am about to invest in the Neuro and one of the devices in the 600 range. My dad is thinking about trying out one of the devices because he has some chronic sinus problems so we will be buying an additional adapter.

Do you know which device would be most suitable to addressing sinus problems? Which of the devices in the 600 range do you think is best for general wellbeing?

I am just reading the Norman Doidge book and this stuff is seriously mind blowing! I will probably couple LLLT with other things mentioned in the book in addition to the transcutaneous vagal nerve stimulator that I am waiting for in the mail.

 

[Chris]

@Cheesus; I really am not sure--I have never tried a 655, the laser version. I think that for sinus problems the cheaper 633 is likely to do a good job--it has helped a friend, and very much reduced my previous pollen allergies--in fact this year I only noticed them when they affected my eyes. But I also have a suspicion that the laser 655 might be better at doing a bit of what the 810 does even better--having some effect on the underside of the brain. I have also met a woman who had used a 655 for years, and apparently had been able to cancel anticipated amputation of her left hand due to PAD--an unusual presentation of Peripheral Arterial Disease.

But the combo of 810 and 633 helped the man with some degree of Alzheimers in the poster presentation you can find on the Mediclights.com website, and since you will be getting the "super" version of the 810 as part of the Neuro, and since your dad's primary problem seems to be sinus, I think the cheaper 633 should do a good job--it has helped a problem my friend had with venous return in one leg--she has had 2 hospitalizations for DVT--I know that it is an effective little device. With the laser 655 you have to be more careful not to shine the beam into your eyes, which is not difficult to do when inserting the thing into a nostril. The danger is slight, since the tip of the 655--as with the other models--contains a tiny lens that acts as a diffuser--but the possible danger persists, though at a very low level.

 

[Cheesus]

@Cheesus; I really am not sure--I have never tried a 655, the laser version. I think that for sinus problems the cheaper 633 is likely to do a good job--it has helped a friend, and very much reduced my previous pollen allergies--in fact this year I only noticed them when they affected my eyes. But I also have a suspicion that the laser 655 might be better at doing a bit of what the 810 does even better--having some effect on the underside of the brain. I have also met a woman who had used a 655 for years, and apparently had been able to cancel anticipated amputation of her left hand due to PAD--an unusual presentation of Peripheral Arterial Disease.

But the combo of 810 and 633 helped the man with some degree of Alzheimers in the poster presentation you can find on the Mediclights.com website, and since you will be getting the "super" version of the 810 as part of the Neuro, and since your dad's primary problem seems to be sinus, I think the cheaper 633 should do a good job--it has helped a problem my friend had with venous return in one leg--she has had 2 hospitalizations for DVT--I know that it is an effective little device. With the laser 655 you have to be more careful not to shine the beam into your eyes, which is not difficult to do when inserting the thing into a nostril. The danger is slight, since the tip of the 655--as with the other models--contains a tiny lens that acts as a diffuser--but the possible danger persists, though at a very low level.

Thank you for that information. It was very helpful.

Some of this stuff is staggering. I couldn't believe it when I read about the guy who been left deaf and blind after meningitis and managed to regain some sight and hearing with LLLT. It seemed like the situation was still ongoing at the time the book was written, so hopefully he managed to build on his successes over time.

My ME is not actually the main reason I am getting the Neuro. A few years ago a damn psychiatrist gave me some medication which caused auditory hallucinations that never went away. They're not voices and there are no associated psychiatric symptoms indicative of psychosis or other troubling psychiatric conditions, but instead is just perpetual, strange, rhythmic sounds. It is straight up neurological damage. Fingers crossed I can heal whatever the medication damaged with LLLT. From what I have read it seems like it is definitely worth a shot.

 

[Chris]

@Cheesus; I assume you have consulted a good neurologist, and that no useful suggestions were forthcoming--did you have any scan that might have suggested where the root of the problem might lie? I think it just possible the Neuro might help, though I really have no idea whether it will or not. You might try posting your symptoms on the Vielight.com forum, though honestly I doubt anyone there will wish to venture advice on such an odd and doubtless disturbing symptom. I wish you the best of luck whatever route you take, and keep us informed!

 

[Cheesus]

@Cheesus; I assume you have consulted a good neurologist, and that no useful suggestions were forthcoming--did you have any scan that might have suggested where the root of the problem might lie? I think it just possible the Neuro might help, though I really have no idea whether it will or not. You might try posting your symptoms on the Vielight.com forum, though honestly I doubt anyone there will wish to venture advice on such an odd and doubtless disturbing symptom. I wish you the best of luck whatever route you take, and keep us informed!

Unfortunately I have been too sick to leave the house for a long time, even for medical appointments. I sincerely doubt anyone would bother to do any investigations either. The NHS doctors only investigate things when they think there is something they might be able to do about it. As far as I can tell UK doctors are primarily the shoulder-shrugging type. I have yet to come across anyone even remotely enterprising.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Ricard]

@Ricard--I should make it clear that that is only my interpretation of Intelligentimpulse's text and photo. But I compared the photo with the diode housing of my "regular" 810, and there seems to be a significant amount of colour detail (white and red) in the Neuro 810 housing, where my "regular" 810 has simply a black column. The diode housing also appears a little thicker than the regular one.

Dear Chris and all,

so the applicator does not contain anything else than a diode (810nm neuro). And actually it looks like a standard 5050 810nm led. If you google this you will arrive to alibaba and see leds tat cost about 1$. Now I bought a simple function/pulse generator like this spooky 2.0 (approx 100$) and you connect this with a Mosfet and limiting resistor to the applicator. The problem is that I am not 100% sure about the specs of the led. Currently I am running it with 20mA but on Alibaba they state 60mA, but who know ....
Anyone has a clearer idea of the led specs?

Cheers

 

[Chris]

@Ricard--I think you are misinterpreting me, if I read your "so" correctly. I intended to imply that I thought there probably was some microcircuitry built into the diode housing of the Neuro intranasal unit--that was I thought the implication of my "white and red." But I repeat that I have no direct knowledge or confirmation of this.