High Dosage methylfolate users

[ahmo]

My understanding is the same as whodathunkit's.

I'm tracking another issue today. I queried my body re my usual zucchini at supper last night, and got 'No Thanks'. I don't eat much veggie, or at least didn't consider it much. But the size of the zukes I'm eating is slightly larger. I peel my small zucchini, have been eating 1 AM/PM, w/ about 1 cup lettuce/carrot juice. I'm stoppoing the zuke for at least today to see what happens.

In looking for threads re vegetable folate, which I've just begun, the little I can find suggests it's possible for veggies to interfere w/ absorption. In one Freddd wrote

"I have a nice organic garden, I just have to keep limits. I try to keep stable on 8mg a day of Metafolin. I could eat more veggies if I took 16mg a day."

I notice zzz0r in one of those threads. So, what's "too much" vegetables? Like I responded a bit back, as long as a piece of string? This is my only fibre, so I'm really feeling a bit perplexed here.

 

[whodathunkit]

@ahmo: I remember that post. I also seem to remember reading that if you've got one of the homozygous MTHFR mutations it can cause problems not only in processing folic acid, but also folinic acid you get from veggies. If you're heterozygous in that mutation it can cause some problems with folinic acid depending upon your mutation configuration and other factors (like how healthy you are in general), but it won't necessarily cause you a big problem unless you over-consume or are having other health problems.

Again, I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that.

 

[ahmo]

@whodathunkit, I'm compound hetero, so I guess I'm in that category, as this seems to be the equivalent. I'll be researching folate levels in veggies today. So, this could explain the reason for my high doses. Well, I should, rather, be that I have this addt'l info, a new direction to explore. Bummer about the fibre, as I'm eating no grains, starches. Maybe this precipitates me into trying something like white rice after 2+ years off all these, though w/ buckwheat. OK, new lines of search. This also explains why folinic never worked for me. thx

Add: In the little I did search today, turns out zucchini is listed as high folate. I always think of this as such a *nothing* of a veg, the one thing I could eat that's low thiol/sulfur....

 

[place]

Well I am up to 9.6 in three doses. My days are spotty. I feel good, then I don't. Then I feel good and then I don't. It's hour by hour. I have had more energy and I am able to stay off the sofa at night but my muscle fatigue is bad. I can hardly get to the top of the stairs and I felt like it was a 100 meter dash full out sprint. I bend over at the top of the stairs for air.
I can still do moderate exercise so my fatigue can not be blamed on stamina. We will see. I am going to stop at this level and see how it goes for two week.

 

[kyzcreig]

From what I've read there can be many reasons that people can't tolerate methylfolate. Intolerance could be caused by any one of a variety of mutations causing a variety of problems (like high dopamine, high histamine, high ammonia, other inflammatory issues, etc.) or it could be caused by a need to detox so that symptoms from increasing metabolism (methylation) aren't so unpleasant. Detox could include heavy metal detox, general liver detox, etc.

Complicating this is the fact that various nutrient deficiencies or imbalances can also cause intolerance. Imbalance of B vitamins, not enough zinc, not enough or too much molybdenum or manganese can cause problems, etc. Genetic mutations can also cause problems with the other nutrients needed for successful methylation and to utilize methylfolate correctly.

BUT...once those issues are addressed properly (whatever they are), methylfolate pretty much works the same for everyone.

It's figuring out what your issues are and how to address them properly that's the problem.

That's just my understanding. I hope someone with more knowledge will correct me if I'm wrong.

@whodathunkit, did you say you had been making progress - if so, what specifically are you having trouble overcoming and do you suspect a certain polymorphism is at play?

I can corroborate that methylfolate/b12 seems to be having a beneficial effect on me but I can't seem to overcome ileum paralysis. Small doses of BH4 have helped a lot with sensitivities however (I suspect by way of breaking ONOO/peroxynitrate malfunction). Maybe I just need to give it time?

 

[zzz0r]

My understanding is the same as whodathunkit's.

I'm tracking another issue today. I queried my body re my usual zucchini at supper last night, and got 'No Thanks'. I don't eat much veggie, or at least didn't consider it much. But the size of the zukes I'm eating is slightly larger. I peel my small zucchini, have been eating 1 AM/PM, w/ about 1 cup lettuce/carrot juice. I'm stoppoing the zuke for at least today to see what happens.

In looking for threads re vegetable folate, which I've just begun, the little I can find suggests it's possible for veggies to interfere w/ absorption. In one Freddd wrote I notice zzz0r in one of those threads. So, what's "too much" vegetables? Like I responded a bit back, as long as a piece of string? This is my only fibre, so I'm really feeling a bit perplexed here.

Freddd has pointed out that folinic acid interferes with the metabolism of methylfolate. Folinic acid can be found mostly in green vegetables. I have noticed as Freddd has noticed as well that if I eat too much green vegetables or veggies that have high ammount of folinic acid(oragne juice, strawberies, peas) that I get the folate deffeciency symptoms. The only difference is that I recover more qucikly by this crash. By the phrase "too much veggies" I guess it is different from person to person. For me I need to eat high folinic acid food two days in a row in order to get the deffeciency. It is actually a lot easy.

 

[whodathunkit]

@kyzcreig: The problem I am attempting to address with folate has nothing specifically to do with genetics or methylation. Women's reproductive organs need folate to be healthy and it's a female problem I'm attempting to address. It's just an experiment but it is the reason my folate dosage is so high. I will reduce (or try to) after I feel I've experimented enough with high-dose.

I don't know if I have any mutations or polymorphisms. I haven't had my DNA tested. I'm thinking about it but because of security concerns for the future, I haven't made the leap.

Another reason I haven't had it tested is because I'm doing pretty good without knowing my genetics. Paying attention to and addressing my symptoms seems to be working for me, at least right now. And I'm not sure if I want to know all my screwed up genetics.

Finally, I don't fee comfortable commenting on your particular problem because I just don't know that much about genetics and the problems various polymorphisms cause. I don't know that much about BH4 except I remember reading up on it a little bit and deciding it wasn't something I needed. I wish I could comment knowledgeably on what to do about a paralyzed ileum, but can't, especially without knowing when it started (before or after beginning methylfolate), pertinent details like that.

If paralysis started *after* you began methylfolate then maybe it could be a weird paradoxical deficiency symptom and giving it some time and increasing dose would work. But that would be your choice to pursue that option, and it's impossible to say for sure if it's paradoxical deficiency or not.

If paralysis started *before* you began methylfolate then I wouldn't even begin to be able to guess what might caused it or might help it. Time and methylfolate might be your answer, but they might not.

I wish I could say more. Hopefully someone else can chime in that will be of more help than I am.

 

[ahmo]

Thx zzz0r. So far I've eliminated veggies for 24 hours, eliminated my last night's 8mg dose folate, lowered my AM dose from 8.25 to 6mg, and show no signs of deficiency. Before this, yesterday, I had some weird look to my face, seemed a bit swollen, sallow. Better today. Curiouser and curiouser. But Good!

 

[whodathunkit]

@ahmo, forgot to say that IMHO fiber isn't all that crucial. We have been conditioned to think that fiber is crucial but it really isn't. We don't need it as badly as our medical establishment has led us to believe. We need some, but not nearly as much as we've been led to believe.

Fiber *does* become more crucial as our gut health deteriorates, which is why I think the mainstream medical community emphasizes it so much: it's a convenient bandaid that masks a more complex problem.

It's just easier to tell someone to drink sawdust or eat a bunch of veggies than it is to actually fix a problem as gnarly as an imbalance of gut bacteria, and then to address what may have caused the imbalance in the first place. Aside from antibiotics and medications, our mainstream food supply just doesn't support a healthy gut any more. Also, I think people may be now be born with a bad gut, for various reasons.

Anyway, as long as you have a good balance of healthy gut bacteria, you should poop just fine. Like 95% of the volume of a nice poo should be bacteria, not fiber.

I used to worry about fiber intake but just don't any more. Unless I'm having symptoms from paradoxical folate deficiency or some supplements, I "go" just fine. I don't eat a whole bunch of fiber, either. I get what's in my food but don't go out of my way to eat stuff with fiber in it. If I do, great. If I don't, it's fine.

Sorry for TMI.

P.S. The first time anyone told me this I didn't believe it. I had to experience it for myself. But the wise man was right.

 

[ahmo]

@whodathunkit Yay! Thank you. trying a bit of red lentils today

 

[ahmo]

Update: No veggies over the last 2 days. Yesterday I reduced my folate from 24.25 to 18 mg, and MB12 from 31 to 25. NO deficiency symptoms! So I had a real block going on. I also searched for info re folate and adrenals, as the puffiness in my face has now gone down. I could only find references to folate being indicated for adrenal exhaustion. So there is some relationship, and I was pushing it the wrong way. I'm thrilled to be looking at reduced dosages. Will next update when I seem to be at some point of equilibrium....A Cautionary Tale!

 

[Laurel6123]

Awesome! Wouldn't life be so much easier if we came with check engine lights and trouble codes

That makes me wonder if some people who 'hate' veggies don't intuitively know that maybe they aren't the best thing for them to eat...added incentive to get DF to spit in a tube, I guess, so I can test my theory.

Very interested about the folate and adrenal health as well; finals will be over so and I'm going to bump that to the top of the list!

 

[place]

Ok, I was having muscle fatigue issues, which was way different than energy fatigue. Nonetheless, I couldn't go up stairs or finish my standard work out. Bu I could stand and cook and talk all day.


Increase my carintine by 1000. And it all went away, all is better than my baseline.

How much are you all taking of the carintine?

 

[whodathunkit]

@place: great news!

Did you increase *by 1000, or *to* 1000? And if you increased *by* 1000, what's your total dosage now?

Also, are you taking divided doses or only once per day?

I found LCF to be very potent and had to go slow with it. But it was worth it...definitely did me a lot of good. I've been looking for a little more oomph lately so maybe I should try increasing LCF again.

 

[ahmo]

Hi place. You've given me the excuse to post today. Wonderful that you've had such good results by increasing.

I'm taking 250mg LCF midday and PM. This dose has been stable over many months.

My folate story update:

At my highest dose, before stopping my zucchini intake, I was at 24.5 mg folate, 31mg MB12, 5mg AdB12.
Over the first 3 days without the veggie folinic, I took 18mg folate. I continued to have adrenal stress symptoms, and eliminated my PM dose the next day, hoping this would drain the excess out of my system. Again, no deficiency symptoms. As the adrenal symptoms continued, I stopped folate altogether for 2 days. I then resumed,at 15 mg, where I remain now, 5 days on.

So, I went from 24.5 mg folate to 15 mg folate, including 2 days with zero folate, and no veggie intake. I've now resumed my 1 cup lettuce/carrot juice, my only vegetable intake. Throughout this period I have had no deficiency symptoms whatsoever. I'm taking 15 mg MB12, AdB12 seems to be settling between 3 and 5mg.

Once I stopped all folate, my ongoing coffee enema detox program seemed to shift into clearing adrenals. I monitor my supp doses by self-testing. From this time, over the past 5 days, I have eliminated my 30mcg thyroid dose (which had been reduced from 60mcg as my B12/folate protocol continued).

I no longer take thymus and adrenal glandulars, theanine, DMAE, tyrosine, mg threonine. I am hesitant to add inositol and glutamine to this group, but body keeps indicating they are no longer needed either. There appears to be no further need for them. I am temporarily not using all the supps that are related to hormones, as my adrenal clearing continues: Vit K, D, E, DHEA, pycnogenol, chromium, my Yasko RNA drops, as well as my 25/day B complex. I believe this last group is a temporary withholding until this adrenal dumping has completed.

I'm no longer having the adrenal symptoms of puffy face, etc. I am having symptoms that come and go as the adrenal clearing continues, low-back and leg pains that were a part of my past. I never ever connected my LB issues to adrenals, always classified it as "connective tissue", sacroiliac. Even though the problem began and continued to be triggered by stress. When I look through new lenses see how clearly this was an adrenal issue. And B12/folate deficiency was a critical part of this weakness. I’ve gotten out of the shower on a cool day, and am not cringing with my hands on my kidney/adrenals.

In the midst of this process I appear to have undergone the personality change I have sought forever. In the midst of some quite acute detox symptoms and needs to attend to them (eg. one nite a 9PM set-up for water-coffee-water enemas to clear the acute adrenal inflammation; followed by 3AM clay footbaths and mouth swishing to get rid of this stuff!!) I show no signs of anxiety or even distress. Yes, discomfort. But no grumpiness, irritability, agitation, my old friends. I have become a fundamentally cheerful person. I have become resilient.

I am eternally grateful to Freddd for keeping such close track of his own symptoms and dosages, and carrying on the voluminous research that created this life-saving protocol.

 

[stridor]

@kyzcreig I have an underactive and under- just about everything else, gut. Colon removed. Paralytic Ileus can be related to low potassium. I take a small amount (compared to some here) daily and notice a big difference. Hope this helps.

@whodathunkit The folinic gene you were trying to recall is MTHFS. I am heterozygous and it is activated. I have to limit veggies. I enjoy your posts.

As to the general discussion...I do not know how much oral mfolate I would have to take to take in order to get enough. I am not rich enough to find out. I have attempted 3 times to switch to swallowing capsules but have failed at 9 mg/day. I have to open the capsules and pour it into the buccal pouch. I need to do this every 3-4 hours or brain-fog increases. I suspect that this is close to the half-life for folate.
I suggest that a percentage of people taking mega-doses have absorption problems as well. FWIW - I also do not absorb B2 well nor iron. I know that there are others but they are not as easy to figure out. I used to find probiotics helped but have not been able to tolerate them since the operation. brad

 

[kyzcreig]

I must confess I'm not even sure that's my problem @stridor. Thank you for the advice. Potassium seems to help a whit.

Whenever I eat certain foods, especially carbs, I get shaky, brain fog, tachycardia, anxiety, shortness of breath and other general hypoglycemic symptoms as well as excessive bloating and burping. In fact the bloating/inflammation seems to precipitate all my other symptoms and actually pre-empted the subsequent fall into CFS and MCS.

I've tried treatments for dysbiosis, leaky gut, candida, toxicity, chelation and on and on to no avail. I know if I figure out the mechanism of this reaction everything else will be resolved. Methylation seems to help but only in an auxiliary sense, my skin and such have improved but it's likely attributable to the correction of a dietary deficiency, since my diet has been especially ascetic. I'm not sure what to test for at this point, doctors are hopelessly useless and discouraging.

 

[stridor]

@kyzcreig OK, it was just a shot in the dark.
Have you actually measured your blood sugar when in the midst of a reaction? Do you have this reaction to pure sugar? If so, how long afterwards?
I was wondering about "dumping syndrome" but that would generally speed things up, not slow them down. But one thing that I have learned is that "normal" symptoms do not always apply to me.
Do you take chromium?

I have hypoglycemic reactions with low-normal blood sugar. My brain seems to have a hard time using glucose sometimes. I am fine if I take something with protein and fat. I could have insulin resistance which may mean that I am a candidate for diabetes. I take thyroid, cortef, testosterone already so if someone told my another gland was packing it in, I wouldn't blink.
http://drlwilson.com/articles/HYPOGLYCEMIA.htm

 

[whodathunkit]

@stridor, glad to see you back! I was wondering where you'd got to.

I myself may be stepping back from mB12 and methylfolate a bit.

About a month ago I started experimenting with small doses of SAM-e. It worked well, I got a boost from it, but after a couple of weeks using it I started having some bowel symptoms.

So I stopped SAM-e a couple of weeks ago, but haven't been able to get the bowel thing completely stabilized, even with higher doses of methylfolate.

I just don't want to go any higher with methylfolate...it's expensive and I don't want to take any more pills.

I'm also taking really high doses of mB12...I've been doing 5mg/day injectable plus some tabs throughout the day for a couple of months.

So I'm going to try ramping down my methylcobalamin use first. I'm thinking maybe the extra B12 from the new script may have finally "topped me out", in that my deficiency is now completely made up. Isn't that what we're all after...to correct our deficiencies and then just maintain healthy levels of these necessary nutrients?

After that I'll try ramping down methylfolate.

I'll post updates to see where I get.

 

[place]

I'm at 1000 in the morning and 1000 in the afternoon. The other three at 10, 10, and 10. I split my folate and mb12 three times a day.