High Dosage methylfolate users

[place]

@ahmo- I have been increasing mine as well and I am getting histamine issues too! But I don't notice them until I go to bed and I can't sleep. If I take a MB12, it would give me energy. This last two days I have been trying to spread out the MB12 so that I take it with the folate. Let me know how it goes. I am up to 7.2 in three doses.

@WDTI Before I started to increase from 2.4 to 7.2 of folate, I had a really high tolerance for anything. I have business that involves at least 1,000 families and their kids, and let me tell you each day I have "unique" highly emotional problems to solve with compassion and consideration. However, since I have increased my does, I have no tolerance at all. I would describe it as being a witch with a "B". I went through something similar when I first started this protocal several years ago. i'm just hoping it goes away soon before my family, friends and coworkers vote me off the island.

 

[helen1]

What is the thinking about how much mB12 and adB12 should go with the folate?

I'm currently taking 5-7 mg mfolate and 1 mg mB12 and 3 mg adB12. When I add another mB12 my mood goes downhill. Any ideas why this might be?

I'm also wondering if the mood dip is more a symptom of needing more folate. but the problem I'm having there is if I take more after 6 pm I sleep worse than usual. Is this common with others?

Some days I feel great with only 1-2 mg of folate. Why?

I've read in several places that B12 and folate should be separated by an hour. Is that what others are doing? I see that @place is taking them together and wondering about that.

 

[Laurel6123]

What is the thinking about how much mB12 and adB12 should go with the folate?

I'm currently taking 5-7 mg mfolate and 1 mg mB12 and 3 mg adB12. When I add another mB12 my mood goes downhill. Any ideas why this might be?

I'm also wondering if the mood dip is more a symptom of needing more folate. but the problem I'm having there is if I take more after 6 pm I sleep worse than usual. Is this common with others?

Some days I feel great with only 1-2 mg of folate. Why?

I've read in several places that B12 and folate should be separated by an hour. Is that what others are doing? I see that @place is taking them together and wondering about that.

It's my understanding that mb12:adb12:folate should be 1:1:1.

I take them all at the same time, on an empty stomach with LCF, first thing upon rising. I no longer miss coffee.

Are you getting any folic acid that could be interfering? How about enough Potassium?

I just found that low potassium = massive black mood for me, which, after over a year of this, is a bit of a surprise.

 

[zzz0r]

@place dont pay so much attention to the "Witch" with a B thing. Especially if you have COMT mutations it is expected to happen as you are overmethylating (because of the COMT mutations) meaning that methylgroups are not used up in order to degrade dopamine which is building up in the brain. I would pay more attention to the other symptoms, if you have any

 

[ahmo]

@place wow, you are so active!! I'm mightily impressed. I've been amazed that I can take folate a couple hours before bed, and B12 in bed when needed for histamine. And sleep. such a difference.

@whodathunkit My recent walk was to test whether I could tackle a small hill that has been my boundary for some years. I still couldn't make it. But, my pace was much better, it felt easier. And I'm doing my high intensity rebounder ex with much greater regularity, so my exercise tolerance has creeped up. I really pump my arms during this rebounder ex, and they not only tolerate it, but they hardly ever hurt anymore and are even marginally stronger. My overall increase yesterday of .5mg in 2 .25 doses did the trick, the sores are gone today. And it didn't push histamines.

but what is most impressive to me is my increasing tolerance to normal, daily, minor stresses.

Exactly. Yesterday, for at least the second day in a row that I can track, I felt a shift into cheerfulness This feels different from increased-folate-euphoria, and is not related to anything external. this feels like a temperamental shift from what would have to be described as life-long tendency toward being solemn or serious. When I picture myself in the past, I think I had to focus so much on whatever I was engaged in because I was so B12 deficient, that everything took an effort. Prior to ME/CFS my moods were pretty labile (hello lithium). During my period of unwellness, moods ranged from desperate and drastic to coping admirably. Now, with a wholly new inner calm, this feels really different

 

[kyzcreig]

Are there any problems absorbing the 15mg+ quantities of methylfolate, and should they be spaced out through the day?

 

[ahmo]

Spaced out is good, when talking about methylfolate

 

[helen1]

Thanks @Laurel6123. Well I'm quite a ways off of 1:1:1. And you take them all together on an empty stomach to good effect. Maybe I should try that. No I take no folic acid at all. I've wondered about potassium as there's so much written about it but I don't see any obvious benefits after supplementing. Maybe I need more...

 

[Laurel6123]

@helen1 - I would sure try adding potassium. I know I need more potassium when:
I get constipated (sorry, TMI);
wake up feeling hungover (7 mos pregnant, so it's been a while since I've had even a sip of wine at communion!); stiff/tight spine,
palpitations-I could count my pulse without needing a free finger on an artery,
A very specific type of headache
and most recently identified,
a very deep, black, anxious depression.

If you can tolerate coconut water, that is, by far, my preferred method. It's pricey, so it's a treat, not a mainstay (though I am definitely stockpiling for labor!)

I think it's one of those things you don't realize you need until get enough to 'turn the lights on', then, when you go back to 'normal', it's much darker than you recall.

Oh-I wouldn't jump right into 1:1:1 off the bat. I did, out of ignorance, and how I managed to avoid any problems is anyone's guess (there but for the Grace...) You're a big girl, you can do as you like, but boy, I'd hate to see you really react to mb12 if you're reacting to a little, KWIM?

 

[helen1]

No I sure wouldn't jump to 7 mg of all three of them for a 1 to 1 ratio as I've been through the disaster of start high and go fast.

Yes I do take potassium but haven't seen much improvement in symptoms. Today I took close to 2000 mg in powder form and in coconut water. Felt a slight brightening of mood but not much. I have none of those classic potassium deficiency symptoms. So it's probably a need for more folate and the B12s, right?

 

[whodathunkit]

@ahmo: "labile". What a great word! And you just don't see it very often. I'm a confirmed logophile, myself.

That's great news about the folate increase and no histamines!

@helen1: Not sure you need to take B12 on empty stomach as it gets infused between your cheek and gums, thus bypassing digestion. B12 is easily damaged/obliterated by stomach acid which is why it's most effective as a sublingual or injection. However, I always take some B12 with my folate, and folate on a mostly empty stomach, and if you do it that way you'll wind up taking B12 when empty, anyway. Just sayin' in case you ever feel like popping a B12 lozenge not long after you've eaten. Sometimes I do.

If you're comfy with the idea and can stand the idea of maybe experiencing some new symptoms for a while it might be worth your while to up your doses of both mB12 and folate. My $0.02. .

 

[juniemarie]

@whodathunkit @ahmo You guys have been on the front lines lately with our methylation issue as we try to implement Fredds protocol. All I can say is thank goodness cause I get so confused and lost trying to figure it all out. When I read Fredds list of symptoms for over/under methylation, the donut hole & potassium deficiency I go into immediate brain fog.
I had a bizarre episode last evening. My doses now are 1 active B complex, 800 mcg mfolate, 1mg mb12, 1/4 of 10,000 mcg adb12, 300 mg mixed potassium gluconate/citrate.
My energy was nice and steady yesterday with no brain fog until late afternoon when I took a very sharp downward spiral into probably the worst brain fog I have ever had. If you had asked me my name I would not have been able to tell you. I lost coordination and was bumping into stuff, dropping stuff, stumbling around and the later it got the worse it became.
I have 2 odd symptoms that have been with me for about 5 yrs. @ahmo I have heard you talk about sores on your scalp which is a sign for you to increase your dose. I have had these sores on my scalp for 5 yrs and its only since my resent starting of Fredds protocol that I have noticed them decrease dramatically. The other odd symptom comes and goes and can be mild to not so mild, a bitter/metallic taste in my mouth. As I spiraled down yesterday the metallic taste began to increase and the worse I got with the brain fog and inability to coordinate my body the worse the metallic taste became until the who inside of my mouth was raw and felt ulcerated.
This morning I am fine. A slight residue of the bad taste in my mouth but its very mild and no burning ulcerated feeling.
How do you guys read this? Today I had intended to add a little bit of LCF Is that the right decision or should I be increasing something else?

 

[whodathunkit]

@juniemarie: if I was you I would increase folate, and possibly mB12. Probably by 200mcg/day until my symptoms went away. You *could* try increasing more dramatically than that, but depending upon your state of health that may or may not be good for you. Radical increase worked for me, but I'm not a sick as some people here, and it doesn't work for others. 200mcg/day seems a safe dose to increase. The metallic taste could be a sign of detox due to increased metabolism, and the sore mouth is an epithelial symptom that can be manifested by the donut hole/paradoxical folate deficiency.

I do strongly advise to start dividing your doses of folate and mB12 so that you're taking at least twice per day, as well. Once first thing when you get up, then again around five hours later. That may help prevent crashing.

Keep in mind if you choose to increase you will likely have lots of up-and-down before you stabilize. How much you're willing to increase any of these supps is a personal choice, so keep that in mind. I can advise what I would do, but ultimately you are the driver of your own process. Read a bunch of advice and pick what makes the most sense for you.

Based on my experience, if I was you I would not add LCF right now, but concentrate on the folate and mB12 instead. You want to be sure what's working for your symptoms and what's not, so it's best to pick just one or two things to change for a while, and get familiar with what that does for you. After you figure out how you react to increasing folate and mB12 you can add a small dose of LCF. That way you're more likely to be sure how you react to LCF. Then you can increase that dose or move on to the next supplement you want to try. Etc.

HTH.

 

[juniemarie]

@whodathunkit Yes I am dividing dose, 2x a day already. 7am and noon. I just took my noon dose and increased the folate by 200mcg up to 1 mg from 800 mcg now. Perhaps I should add a 200 mcg of b12 as I thought it was supposed to be a bit higher than folate but have noticed not everyone does that. Its quite a juggling act knowing when to increase and which one to increase and how to interpret symptoms I swear when I read the list of symptoms for indications that you need more folate, or b12 or LCF I have symptoms on all of them! Thats why I'm never quite clear which supplement is needed to match which symptoms I'm getting.

 

[ahmo]

@juniemarie I finally watched the self-testing vid linked by @caledonia. It's a 3 minute vid and offers a remarkably simple technique. It will likely take some time for you to become confident, but the time to start is NOW! I was a bodyworker, had been feeling rhythms in the body for years, then learned the technique I use just as I was collapsing. This is the way I go on, step by step. Once you establish some communication, probably by touching the supp in question as you test, then it gets really easy. If I awaken in the night for no discernible reason, I immediately ask my body, 'Do you need potassium?' If I've raised folate and feel a bit weird, 'Do you need more B12?' and so on.

My folate/B12 ratio is not exactly 1:1, tho not far off, and AdB12 is less. Presently around 24mg folate, 21mgB12, so it's pretty close, w/ 5mg AdB12 (reduced from 10mg once I introduced Neuroprotek a couple weeks ago). But I don't do it by thinking about ratios. I ask my body.

Re mouth, WDT's explanation makes sense. When I felt I was dumping metal, had that taste in my mouth, I held some clay in my mouth for awhile, spat it, and repeated. But are you taking minerals? Getting zinc, selenium, manganese? That's not much of either K+ or Mg if it's a mixed dose of 300mg. Could there be folic in the B complex? Are the B's activated: P5P for B6, r5p for B2? I find I'm needing quite a lot of biotin, which contributes to cell building.

I'm going to repost something I've just posted elsewhere for someone trying to understand deficiency symptoms. I've also gone cross-eyed trying to understand these lists. @whodathunkit consistently offers the best understandings I've encountered. The first quote is from her.

Self-testing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ex59wHLk3Q0

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cannot-tolerate-oral-b12-–-causes-shortness-of-breath-and-tachycardia-why.28910/page-4#post-454211

FYI, Freddd theorizes that there are levels of healing, and that a certain amount of folate is needed to pass through each level. But that amount is different for each person according to the state of their health. A very sick person will need more for each level, and for a longer period of time, than will a person who is not terribly ill.

BTW, don’t get too hung up on what the “levels” are...I suspect he may have chosen that term simply because it was the best way to conceptualize what he was saying, and also to help categorize the different symptoms that could be manifested when experiencing folate deficiency.

Main point to the concept of levels being that you can’t progress with healing unless you’ve got sufficient folate to drive the process. Also, sometimes you may get sick, get better, then get sick again. But each time you get better, you’re better than you were before. It’s like going up stairs or a scatter plot graph rather than a straight linear ramp or shot from illness to wellness.

So, say you take 800mcg/day of folate for a while. That’s enough to get you you going. But when your body tries to pass through to the second level on that amount of folate, it can’t, because the folate is all used up. Or maybe it even stops halfway through the first level because you don’t have enough folate to get all the way through that. It’s like a car running out of gas. To get where you want to be, you need enough fuel to get there. You have to add more folate. When you do, you will progress until you use up all that folate. And so on, until you’ve done a bunch of healing. When your body is healed or at least well on the path to healing you can reduce the dosage. Or that’s the theory.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/couple-of-questions.22718/page-3#post-407888

Freddd: If methylation starts up many people almost immediately have induced deficiencies. The first two are usually paradoxical folate insufficiency and low serum potassium. After that often come zinc, or magnesium, or vitamin D or half a dozen others. So the solution is more L-methylfolate and/or more potassium, titrated until the symptoms disappear. It works for a lot of people. It happens to a large percentage of people who start methylation. It means you have started healing and forming cells. That mounts more demand on the bodies supplies of nutrients

There is a lot of reading to do. It is like solving a giant maze. You get clues in the form of changing symptoms, new symptoms, strengthening of neurological symptoms and all these allow you to follow the clues of healing. The low potassium and low folate symptoms are usually the first clues and then one deals with these induced deficiencies and moves on to the next thing.

Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called “detox” by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term. Typically they are working on a “toxin” theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the “translations” are made it is clear that actual “detox” if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ylation-and-healing.21725/page-20#post-422644

In here it says it’s crucial to recognise the ‘flags of healing’/ neurological brightening....

Freddd: An awful lot of peoples discussion around here is how to avoid them since having them is typically about as easy as falling off a log. Basically an hour after a person takes a Metafolin table and swallows it, put an Enzymatic Therapy tablet under their lip and part of an Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex capsule contents under their lower lip. In about an hour about 90% of those with a good assortment of CFS/FMS responsive symptoms (symptoms on those lists) will have some to a lot of effects. Much of ot is neurological brightening. That is literally everything looks brighter. All pains feel “brighter”. Hearing may sharpen. Intensity increases. Some people feel it as pleasantly stimulation, like they hadn’t had this kind of clarity or energy since they got sick. Many get a little euphoric. Others get anxious. Lots of ways to feel MORE as the nervous system starts to wake up. Despite the intensity I felt I also know my life of misery was changing right before my eyes. Those who feel anxious then interpret all these things in whatever is fearful to them. This “anxious and fear” interpretation appears to be linked to a hyper-response in part of the brain, the limbic system,. For most people it isn’t that it is too subtle to see, it’s that they it hits so hard they can’t stand it and it triggers all the worst stories of what must be happening since it is so intense.

Then on about the third day all sorts of symptoms hit and a person can be feeling quite sick. These are usually a combination of potassium deficiency and donut hole folate deficiency. Then one takes enough potassium to relieve the low serum potassium symptoms and more folate until the induced folate deficiency symptoms. There is a list of those specific symptoms so it is easy to match up.

Then after the potassium and folate are adjusted to correct lack of low potassium and/or folate symptoms. As long as there is a some significant amount of “brightening” just keep going. When that fades a fair amount it’s time to start titrating the LCF. If one has anxiety as a reaction, then the micro titration of LCF would be suggested. If it was no anxiety but maybe euphoria or just “energized” then a regular titration would appear suitable.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ficiency-insufficiency-and-edema.26944/unread

Freddd: The body is said to have a “triage” system for distribution, or maybe utilization of, b12 and folate. Healing can turn on with methylation and ATP startup and yet deficiency symptoms can worsen on other layers. The placement of edema within a layer can be done by the symptoms set it responds with; angular cheilitis, IBS and acne type lesions, and others, depending upon duration and severity of insufficiency.

For me the comings and goings of edema were very mysterious without a framework. It came and went at various times in my life. Five years of watching the comings and goings of paradoxical folate insufficiency it became clear that the first symptom to appear was edema and evidenced by weight gain. It was also the first symptom to clearly reverse upon a sufficient dose of Metafolin.

This was after all other nutrients were in place including the Deadlock Quartet of AdoCbl, MeCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine fumarate; basic vitamins and minerals, fats etc. I ran into trouble when my diuretic started working too well. It turns out I didn’t need it at all any more. I was out of folate insufficiency by that time about 3 weeks a month, enough to take the water off. Just these past months after reducing B1, B2 and B3 to what was in a moderately low dose b-complex twice a day I have been consistently out of folate insufficiency for months now. It’s a delicate balance all the way around.

 

[juniemarie]

@ahmo, @whodathunkit thanks so much for your input and sharing your experiences with the protocol. Had a good day. Late afternoon I felt the brain fog stir but never really developed so I am thankful for that. I'm aware that there are lots of honeymoon periods before the protocol is fully in place and that at any time I may need to increase or add something and will be back here trying to get insight.
Ahmo I was on Rich's protocol for 3 yrs which included a multi vitamin & mineral supplement and it didn't help the metallic taste.
Yes I have watched the video Caldonia has a link for about muscle testing. I have dabbled a bit in various forms of muscle testing and for some reason I don't resonate with most of them but I do resonate with the pendant method and want to practice enough so I can tell if it really feels right. I know it can be a powerful tool whichever form one chooses to use.
So I guess I will sit tight with my dosage until my symptoms tell me otherwise. Is that pretty much how its done you increase and wait and see?
Anyway I guess the increase in folate by 200 mcg is helping so far cause had a fine day with decent energy and no brain fog.

 

[ahmo]

So the metallic taste is a long-term thing....have you tested for toxic metals?

Pendant testing is great. whichever method you choose, time will help make it real. Great you had a better day.

So I guess I will sit tight with my dosage until my symptoms tell me otherwise. Is that pretty much how its done you increase and wait and see?

That's exactly how I've done it until just this week when I decided to get ahead of the curve.

 

[acrosstheveil]

i have tried high dose methylfolate but i just can't tolerate it. makes me very tense and OCD. I have began treating KPU again with very high doses of zinc (per dr. klinghardt....thanks ahmo!) and i am already feeling a world of difference. I think KPU might be the missing link for those who aren't seeing big improvements with methylation treatment.

 

[zzz0r]

So here are my messy thoughts
What is the reason for people that are facing methylfolate deffeciency symptoms when taking methylfolate

1. Our well known paradoxical folate deffeciency that someone needs to increase his/her dosage of methylfolate in order to get out of deffeciency until the body is healed and "saturated" by methylfolate

2. COMT mutations. Some COMT mutations mean higher level of concentrated dopamine in the brain and others mean lower ammounts of dopamine. My case is the first one with highers levels of dopamine. I am a "worrier" regarding to the warrior/worrier approach of that certain SNP. High increase of dopamine means anxiety to methyldonors and it could explain in some way the other "side effects" of methylfolate

3. Nerve and/or brain inflammation, as proposed by Dr Ben Lynch and others that needs to be controlled first before introducing methylfolate supplementation.
http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/

Other people having any thoughts on that please step up!!

 

[whodathunkit]

From what I've read there can be many reasons that people can't tolerate methylfolate. Intolerance could be caused by any one of a variety of mutations causing a variety of problems (like high dopamine, high histamine, high ammonia, other inflammatory issues, etc.) or it could be caused by a need to detox so that symptoms from increasing metabolism (methylation) aren't so unpleasant. Detox could include heavy metal detox, general liver detox, etc.

Complicating this is the fact that various nutrient deficiencies or imbalances can also cause intolerance. Imbalance of B vitamins, not enough zinc, not enough or too much molybdenum or manganese can cause problems, etc. Genetic mutations can also cause problems with the other nutrients needed for successful methylation and to utilize methylfolate correctly.

BUT...once those issues are addressed properly (whatever they are), methylfolate pretty much works the same for everyone.

It's figuring out what your issues are and how to address them properly that's the problem.

That's just my understanding. I hope someone with more knowledge will correct me if I'm wrong.